Faith or work can save us?

[De_Maria]

Of course the Church answers to the Church. We too have people in authority, Pastors, Elders, Bishops, and even Apostles. We answer to them, and they answer to God. They too are universal. They serve all over the world. But the difference between them and you is they know they are not infallible, you believe you are. sad.

That would be wrong. I know I’m fallible. That is precisely why Jesus Christ left us with an infallible Church. Because fallible people, like you and I, need an infallible Teacher to Teach us the Word of God without error. That infallible Teacher, is the Catholic Church.

The only thing in this world that is infallible is the written word of God and God Himself.

In so saying, you testify your lack of faith in God. God said:

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God spoke His Word. And His Prophets spoke His Word. And His Church continues to speak His Word. And His Word is still infallible, both by word and by epistle. That is why Scripture says:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

 

[De_Maria]

Where does the word of God teach the Catholic Church is infallible?

There are several places. But first of all, you have to realize that the Catholic Church is the Church which is described in Scripture. No Protestant Church existed for another 1500 years.

First, Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

I see only a few Churches with such a Pastor. Further, Jesus Christ said that the Pastor over His Church would be infallible:

Matthew 16:17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.

Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.

Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.

So, even using just a few verses we can eliminate the Protestants. None of their denominations even come close to being in Scripture. But we can continue to find Catholic indicators throughout the Bible:

The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10).
The Church which is united (Eph 4:5).
The doctrines of the Catholic Church which are distinctive from other churches:
Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15).
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-27).
Communion of Saints (Rom 12:12-20).
The Mass and the necessity to attend (Heb 10:25-31).
The Sacrament of Confession (Heb 13:17).
The Sacrament of Holy Orders (1 Tim 4:14).
The Sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5).
Justification and salvation by faith and works (Rom 2:1-13).

 

[Roseeurekacross]

in the golden olden days Yes there was a rule. why would it now be different?

we are being moderated, we are able to moderate ourselves,

it was a good rule because people exercised a bit of patience and engaging .

did you let thgodsway know you would like to stsrt a new topic on this and use his/ her quote? and have that chatter agree to have the quote migrated?

thats how it was done and still should be.

 

[tgGodsway]

The Church could not teach error only in the sense that the original apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit taught each congregation the revelation of Christ. When they died, they left the inspired writings. These are all without error in the original manuscripts.

The fact that they warned us of error and false doctrine only show that their teaching could, and was, undermined by others in their day. But to say that today the Church cannot teach error is to say that the original Apostle’s warnings do not apply to us today. We do not have, or share, the authoritative mantel of the original Apostles, nor is that mantle offered to anyone. The office of Apostle found in Ephesians is a subordinate apostleship because the original Apostles shared a common bond of being the eye-witnesses to the resurrection where others were not.

This is why I ask for a witness, someone who was there. If you can find this person, I will respect them at the level of the Apostles without error. Today’s Church leaders are with error and it shows. But they can glean from the holy writings of the founders to keep them on track.

 

[ajcstr]

The Church could not teach error only in the sense that the original apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit taught each congregation the revelation of Christ. When they died, they left the inspired writings.

So the Church can’t be under this inspiration also? So by your standards, where does scripture teach that only the apostles were under this inspiration which would cease after their death?

The fact that they warned us of error and false doctrine only show that their teaching could, and was, undermined by others in their day.

Well, obviously, either you or I is definitely in error. I could further say that either you or an Anglican are definitely in error. And that either a Pentecostal or a Lutheran are definitely in error. That does not prove or disprove that the true Church can be protected from error. All that is saying is that there will be those who teach error.

The books of the NT were not settled until the 4th century. I will stick my neck out and say that all the apostles were dead hundreds of years before that. What bridged the gap between the death of the last apostle and the formation of the Canon of scripture?

 

[ajcstr]

This is why I ask for a witness, someone who was there. If you can find this person, I will respect them at the level of the Apostles without error. Today’s Church leaders are with error and it shows. But they can glean from the holy writings of the founders to keep them on track.

I am guessing you have never researched the writings of the first century church fathers? Especially the ones who were directly taught by the apostles?

Were Luke or Mark witnesses to the Resurrection?

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

…let’s see:

16:18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it. 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven.’ (St. Matthew)

Delegation of Authority to the Church alone is also demonstrated here:

14:16 I shall ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you for ever, 14:17 that Spirit of truth whom the world can never receive since it neither sees nor knows him; but you know him, because he is with you, he is in you. (St. John)

…and the Apostles understood this:

3:15 but in case I should be delayed, I wanted you to know how people ought to behave in God’s family – that is, in the Church of the living God, which upholds the truth and keeps it safe. (1 Timothy)

…of course to understand this we must submit to God’s Decree… either Jesus’s Foundation stands as He claims or Jesus failed/lied and everyone in the world has Christ’s Authority.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

…but of course you and those of your persuasion keenly ignore that most of the Apostolic Teaching came in the form of Oral Tradition not the Written Tradition–since non-Catholics have divorced themselves from the one Body of Christ they must reject everything till Luther and Calvin and embrace sola Scriptura.

Interestingly enough, the proponents of sola Scriptura do not truly Believe in the tenet since they base their theology not on Scriptures but on their and their founders’ interpretations of Scriptures.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, A!

…that’s the black-hole in non-Catholic theology–they go the death of the Apostles, close all reason, then open up with Luther and Calvin and claim the Holy Spirit revealed the truth only to these and their followers.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

The Church could not teach error only in the sense that the original apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit taught each congregation the revelation of Christ.

Did you know that Sts. Mark and Luke are not Apostles?

When they died, they left the inspired writings. These are all without error in the original manuscripts

Did you know that there were many more writings which purported to be written by the Apostles? Did you know that the Catholic Church sifted through all those writings and identified the ones’ which you now consider to be inspired? Did you know that Luther almost cast out the books of St. Jude, Hebrews, Revelation, and St. James because he did not consider them to be inspired?

The fact that they warned us of error and false doctrine only show that their teaching could, and was, undermined by others in their day.

Did you not notice that they identified heresies and rejected them? And that the Catholic Church has continued doing so throughout Church history?

But to say that today the Church cannot teach error is to say that the original Apostle’s warnings do not apply to us today.

You divorce the Apostles from the Church. The way we understand this topic and we can prove it from history, is that the Church warned us of heresies to come and the Church identified the heretics and the heresies for us in order to safeguard the Teachings of Jesus Christ.

We do not have, or share, the authoritative mantel of the original Apostles, nor is that mantle offered to anyone.

Actually, we do. It is the Apostolic Succession which is passed down, through the Church.

The office of Apostle found in Ephesians is a subordinate apostleship because the original Apostles shared a common bond of being the eye-witnesses to the resurrection where others were not.

Apostle doesn’t mean, “witness”. It means, “sent forth”. The original Apostles were sent forth by Jesus Christ. The other Apostles, were sent forth by the Church.

This is why I ask for a witness, someone who was there. If you can find this person, I will respect them at the level of the Apostles without error. Today’s Church leaders are with error and it shows. But they can glean from the holy writings of the founders to keep them on track.

You should study the Early Church Fathers. You will find that none of them hold Protestant doctrines. And that all of them were Priests, Deacons or Bishops of the Catholic Church. The Bishops and Priests confected the Eucharist, presided the Liturgy, the Sacraments and the rites of the Church. They obeyed the authority of the Catholic Church and enforced it.

In addition, you should study the ancient churches. The Greek Orthodox, the Syriac, the Coptic. Notice that they all hold Holy Orders, Liturgy, Sacraments and all reject Protestant doctrines. The few things that they hold against the Catholic Church have to do with the authority of the Pope.

 

[ServantofChristos]

I was taught that only faith in Jesus Christ could a person be saved, but as a christian you have an obligation to do good works, and that good works glorify God.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

I find it interesting how the faith aloners keep missing Christ:

25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right hand, “Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take for your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world. 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you made me welcome; 25:36 naked and you clothed me, sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me.” 25:37 Then the virtuous will say to him in reply, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? 25:38 When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome; naked and clothe you; 25:39 sick or in prison and go to see you?” 25:40 And the King will answer, “I tell you solemnly, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me”. 25:41 Next he will say to those on his left hand, “Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 25:42 For I was hungry and you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; 25:43 I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me.” 25:44 Then it will be their turn to ask, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, a stranger or naked, sick or in prison, and did not come to your help?” 25:45 Then he will answer, “I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me”. 25:46 And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life.’ (St. Matthew)

…both these groups held Christ as their Lord, yet one was acclaimed as virtuous and brought into Eternal Life while the other was rebuked as part of those who are cursed to the eternal fire; it seems that Faith could not be proven in absence of works–even “spiritual” works are not held in the same regards as the works of Love:

7:21 ‘It is not those who say to me, “Lord, Lord”, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. 7:22 When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?” 7:23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!’ (St. Matthew)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ServantofChristos]

I was just stating what I was taught. Jesus did teach to help the poor and those in need, and said that if we love him we would keep his commandments. Even the Old testament taught to help the poor, orphans and widows, etc. I believe if we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we must live like him and keep his teachings always in our mind. I truly don’t believe a person can be a christian and ignore those in need, it’s completely the opposite of what Jesus taught.
God Bless.

 

[tgGodsway]

ajcstr, jcrichton, & De_Maria

You’ve written a lot here, but I cannot respond this week.

 

[ajcstr]

No worries. We will be here

 

[lanman87]

both these groups held Christ as their Lord, yet one was acclaimed as virtuous and brought into Eternal Life while the other was rebuked as part of those who are cursed to the eternal fire; it seems that Faith could not be proven in absence of works–even “spiritual” works are not held in the same regards as the works of Love:

Yes, both acknowledged that Christ was Lord, but only in the sense that this was the day or reckoning and they were both under judgement. If you are standing before a King you are going to call him Lord, or master, or majesty. This doesn’t mean they considered him to be Lord during their earthly life.

Those are the right are those with true faith and belief. They are the ones God has blessed for whom the kingdom has been prepared. Those on the left are the unbelievers, who never acknowledged God and those who said they had faith but only had an intellectual or emotional faith and not a faith the produces action.

The 7:21 verse is talking about those we are religious, who seem to be faithful and even act faithful. But they are doing so for show or to deceive others. They don’t really have faith in Christ but they want people to think they have faith in Christ. They display the external attributes of a Christian but have not been changed internally.

I think what gets lost in this debate is the fact that Evangelicals believe that works are a critical and important part of being a Christian. Those who love Jesus will obey Jesus and display the Love of Christ to those around them. They will seek to do everything for the Glory of God. The difference is that evangelicals believe that those works are not what makes someone “saved” but what someone does because they have been "saved’. When we have been radically changed by the Grace and Spirit and Love and Mercy of God through faith in Jesus Christ then we recognize Jesus in the hungry and thirsty and naked and sick and imprisoned. When we have a cold heart that is dead we may say Jesus is who He says He is but we don’t really believe in Him for our salvation. If we did our life would be changed, our hearts would be changed, we would have compassion on those who are in need.

So if the verses you quoted Matthew 25 and Matthew 7 are a test of true Christianity then Evangelicals pass the test. Evangelicals both teach and practice both having a relationship with Christ and serving Christ by serving others.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Ian!

It is not for me to judge if they are in Fellowship with Christ; from my perspective (what I have been exposed to) is that evangelicals, as you’ve called them, do not teach what you’ve claimed; rather, they teach (those that I’ve come to have experienced) that salvation is granted by a formula (‘claim Jesus your Lord’ done deal) and they fault the Catholic Church for Teaching that it is not about a formula but about Living the Faith (as Jesus demonstrated in the cited passages).

Scriptures are so precise that it compares those having knowledge of Christ (faith aloners) to demons who also Believe there’s a God… but rather than Obey Him they simply tremble from the Knowledge.

It is not about reliance on the Knowledge (Faith) but reliance on God (Obedience).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

That happens; sometimes we are able to engage… sometimes our schedule and responsibilities hinders our abilities to collaborate.

Be well and God Bless!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[lanman87]

It is not about reliance on the Knowledge (Faith) but reliance on God (Obedience).

But faith is not just knowledge. It is also trust and surrender. And yes, there are evangelicals that are what others call 'easy believism". But what most understand is that just saying prayer and believing in Jesus isn’t real faith. Faith includes those things but it is much more. Real faith includes a change of heart which produces a change of action. The difference in doctrine is at what point one is saved. Is it when our heart is changed or is it when we act on the change in our heart? Evangelicals say it is when our heart is changed. Catholics say both.

If you go to almost any town with a large evangelical community you will see various ministries by Evangelical churches that help the hungry and poor and outcast. The one in my local city is made up of Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Assembly of God, Church of Christ and our lone Catholic Church participates as well.

The church I attend sent volunteers to Texas and Florida to help with Hurricane cleanup, supports several local ministries including our local pro-life pregnancy center and has an English as a Second Language Class for our Spanish speaking community. Which, by the way, a couple of folks from the local Catholic church volunteers to help us with.

 

[jcrichton]

Real faith includes a change of heart which produces a change of action. The difference in doctrine is at what point one is saved. Is it when our heart is changed or is it when we act on the change in our heart? Evangelicals say it is when our heart is changed. Catholics say both.

…and it is from these points of incongruity that the separation continues to be fueled.

Perhaps on day the discrepancies in vocabulary and from would cease and we will become One in Christ.

Maran atha!

Angel