Faith or work can save us?

[LoveJoyPeace]

It is true that there is nothing we can do that will make us worthy of Him.
BUT “There is nothing you can do” is very different from “You are allowed to do nothing”.

Indeed the Bible tells us also that if we know to do good, and we do not do it, it is considered sin.

After we enter the narrow gate we must walk the difficult way trusting in our Lord as our guide and our support.

 

[AugustTherese]

Did Israel keep deuteronomy 30? They tried but it was impossible.

Here is what Scripture alone explicitly states: “Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away.”

Here is what tgGodsway states: “It was impossible”.

There were many who kept the Moral Law; Noah, Joseph, Samuel, Elijah - just to name a few. With God’s grace, it is possible to keep the commandments of God. However, when you cut yourself off from the Ark of Salvation, i.e. the Church, then yes, I see your point how it would seem impossible to obey the Decalogue.

Just because people choose not to obey the Law does not mean that it is impossible to follow it.

“I can do all things through him who strengthens me.” Philippians 4:13

I assure you, obeying God’s commandments is included in that ‘all’.

Also, you very deliberately misquoted Romans 3:28.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the law. Ro. 3:28

Romans 3:28, from every Protestant Bible reads:

“For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.” And as you know, works of the law refer to the Mosaic Law and not the Moral Law. Nice try, though!

If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to observe, let him be anathema. - Canon 18, Decree Concerning Justification, Council of Trent

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

You are correct. That is why St. Paul Taught that Salvation is not gained by keeping the Law because the Law’s purpose was to warn of the impending death for those who transgressed the Law–and because man is not able, by his own power, keep from transgressing all of the Commandments all of the time.

However, Faith alone is never taught by anyone.

The best proof of this is Jesus’ Word:

15:1 ‘I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 15:2 Every branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes to make it bear even more. 15:3 You are pruned already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 15:4 Make your home in me, as I make mine in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, but must remain part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 15:6 Anyone who does not remain in me is like a branch that has been thrown away – he withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire, and they are burnt. 15:7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask what you will and you shall get it. 15:8 It is to the glory of my Father that you should bear much fruit, and then you will be my disciples. 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Remain in my love, 15:10 If you keep my commandments you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. 15:11 I have told you this so that my own joy may be in you and your joy be complete. 15:12 This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you. 15:13 A man can have no greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. 15:14 You are my friends, if you do what I command you. (St. John)

Just claiming, “I Believe” or “I have Faith” is a nice soundbite if it is devoid of Abiding in Christ (St. Matthew 5 thru 7; 25:31-46; 7:21-27).

A grisly warning comes to us from St. James:

2:17 Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead. 2:18 This is the way to talk to people of that kind: ‘You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds – now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.

2:19 You believe in the one God – that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear.

2:20 Do realise, you senseless man, that faith without good deeds is useless…

2:23 This is what scripture really means when it says: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was counted as making him justified; and that is why he was called ‘the friend of God’.

2:24 You see now that it is by doing something good, and not only by believing, that a man is justified…

2:26 A body dies when it is separated from the spirit, and in the same way faith is dead if it is separated from good deeds. (St. James)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[TigerLily-1]

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/10/20/good-works-response-not-reason-gods-forgiveness-pope-says/

ROME - Christians are holy not because of their good works but because they recognize their sins before God and receive his forgiveness, Pope Francis said.

In his homily at Mass in the Domus Sanctae Marthae Oct. 20, the pope said that good deeds are “the answer to the freely given love of God, who justifies us and forgives us always.

“It is the Lord; he is the one who has forgiven our original sin and who forgives us every time we go to him,” the pope said. “We cannot forgive our own sins with our works, only he can forgive. We can respond to this forgiveness with our works.”

 

[Cathoholic]

tgGodsway:
.

Did Israel keep deuteronomy 30? They tried but it was impossible. Did David keep Psalms 119? No David failed. He too was found to be a sinner needing grace. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the law. Ro. 3:28 Justification is gifted to the ungodly by faith. Thank God for his wonderful grace.

.

This is irrelevant tgGodsway.

Why?

Because the Israelites did not have the GRACE of Calvary yet so even their faith could not save them.
.

The problem here tgGodsway, is you are sophistically DENYING God’s GRACE.

You DENY the part of God’s grace where God WORKS IN YOU and THROUGH YOU.

You equate ALL works with GRACE works (which is phony).

You whittle down God’s grace to faith ALONE.

And that is an UN-Biblical tradition of men that makes void the word of God.

.

GALATIANS 6:7-8 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

 

[Benadam]

This reminds so much of what Jesus said about the woman who poured expensive oil on His feet and wiped it off with her hair. He pointed out that her actions are evidence that she had been forgiven much.

 

[Crocus]

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Yesterday’s reading from Romans 4: 1-8 caught my ear (this topic is getting long and I can’t find whether the two readings have before been compared). Can you give a comment/summary/short cohesive statement? Is there any verse(s) that sometimes gets pulled out of context?

4 What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness. 6 So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the one against whom the Lord will not reckon sin.”

 

[2towers]

That is what it amounts to.

 

[po18guy]

Nearly all “either this or that” arguments are red herrings or canards. Except for heaven or hell, it is normally “both this and that”

We will be judged by our works of charity. 100% of biblical references state that. But faith without works is dead, and works without faith are meaningless.

 

[De_Maria]

Hello, Crocus,

Thanks for the question.

Can you give a comment/summary/short cohesive statement?

Sure. But nobody has yet seemed able to understand what I mean. Here’s what both of the statements tell us, when combined.

We are not justified by our works. But unless we do good works in accordance with God’s will, God won’t justify us.

Is there any verse(s) that sometimes gets pulled out of context?

All of them. Here’s the first context that is frequently forgotten.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Therefore, all the Apostles were obediently Teaching what Jesus commanded.

CCC#83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Conclusion, we must read all Scripture in the light of Sacred Tradition.

So? To which Sacred Tradition or Teaching is St. Paul making reference when he says?

** For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.**

This one.

and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. (Trent VI, Chapter VIII).

So, does that mean that the Church Teaches by infallible Doctrine that we are justified by faith alone? No. Because the very same document says:

Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

So, what does it mean? We can go to the same document for the answer:

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

So, when a Protestant says, “I’m saved! I’m saved because of my faith in Christ alone by faith alone!” He is probably wrong and probably committing the sin of presumption.

and if a Catholic should say, “I’m saved because I followed the prescriptions of the Nine First Fridays.” But Catholics know better than to say such a thing.

Catholics know that it is only in God’s eyes that our faith or our works are good enough to MERIT the grace of justification or salvation. He imbues our faith and works with value, because of His love for us.

Follow me, so far?

Next, the context of Scripture.

 

[De_Maria]

Hello again, Crocus.

This is my second message in response to your question.

So, the context of Scripture.

Yesterday’s reading from Romans 4: 1-8 caught my ear (this topic is getting long and I can’t find whether the two readings (Romans 4: 1-8 & James 2:21-24) have before been compared).

Before we compare St. Paul to St. James, why don’t we compare St. Paul to St. Paul?

Let’s start with this:

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

And let’s compare that to:

Romans 4:4 What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness. 6 So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the one against whom the Lord will not reckon sin.”

Is St. Paul contradicting himself? I don’t think so. The two are part of the same thought stream. St. Paul is explaining justification in a more detailed way than any of the other Apostles. That is why, even St. Peter said,

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ok, now let’s compare St. Paul to St. James. Compare Romans 2:6-7 to James 2:21-24.

They track pretty well, don’t they?

Let’s compare two more:

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Still tracking, right?

So, what does that tell you? It tells me that when people compare Romans 4:4-8 to St. James 2:21-24, they’re comparing apples to oranges.

Do we agree?

But we can’t stop here if we want a thorough understanding of Romans 4:4-8.

So, in the next message, we’ll trace that verse to its types and shadows in the OT and match it to the Sacred Tradition that it is talking about.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi Crocus,

This is my 3rd response to your message.

We’ve seen that St. Paul agrees with Catholic Tradition.
We’ve seen that he agrees with St. James when we find the Pauline verse that correlates to St. James.

But Romans 4 seems to be the odd ball.

So, what is St. Paul talking about in Romans 4:4-8?

Let’s break it down.

4 What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh?

The first thing to pay attention to here is that he says, "what is to be gained according to the flesh?

We know that we seek spiritual gain. We don’t seek gain according to the flesh.

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

So, according to the flesh, according to man’s judgment, if Abraham was justified by what he did, then he can boast before man, but not before God. This coincides to something which St. Paul said in

1 Corinthians 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

I want you to think about the Sacrament, wherein, you profess your belief in God and it is counted to you as righteousness. Which is it?

4 Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness. 6 So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the one against whom the Lord will not reckon sin.”

This is a reference to King David’s sordid affair with Bathsheba. If you remember, he had an affair with a married woman, killed her husband and thought he had gotten away with it. Then, the Prophet Nathan paid him a visit. The Prophet Nathan laid a trap that has to be the inspiration for Columbo. Then came this exchange:

2 Samuel 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

Here we have a man repenting of his sin and confessing to a man who represents God. Is there a Catholic Teaching that corresponds to that description?

Does anyone see the precursor of Sacramental confession in the exchange between King David and the Prophet Nathan?

So, to me, Romans 4:4-8 is misunderstood by many and especially by Protestants, because it is a description of the justification that occurs in the Sacraments.

 

[Crocus]

Thanks @De_Maria . I will take the time needed to properly unpack this. I hope to make it mine. Appreciate it. Blessings.

 

[spina1953]

I believe neither just faith or just good works save anyone. Faith and good works go together. I know many Protestants quote many verses to say that it is faith alone that saves often quoting Paul. What I have not seen is protestants quoting Paul’s Epistle to the Colossians 1: 9b-13… where he says:“you will multiply good woks of every sort and grow in the knowledge of God.” This sure sounds to me Paul was not against doing good works. What Paul was against was the rituals and the laws of Moses that who were preaching and preaching to converted Gentiles that that was what they had to do in order to be saved. Paul is saying that was not going to save anyone.

James now talked about faith and works saying that just having faith but not needing to do anything with it that converted Pharisees were preaching and teaching in Jerusalem is incorrect. That faith is more its doing and action. if one has real faith they do good works and they do it out of love for God.

Its not how many good works one does but the amount of love one has in doing good work. Does one do good works out of love for God or does one do it looking for recognition and praise? to get something from it expecting something in return? To me if one has real faith they do good works without looking for anything and do it out of love for God and nothing more. In the end Christ will judge and decide whether or not if its faith only that saves or good works that only saves or the combination of the two done out of love.

 

[Crocus]

Condensing all the supporting scripture, I propose the following as a representation of the sequence of events:

1. Grace, opens possibility to …
2. Faith, once activated, confirms …
3. Justification, sets in motion …
4. Good works, reaping …
5. Salvation through God’s mercy

Each and every one of those gifts of God being dependent on our assent and cooperation.

 

[JEH]

Is there any difference between being made righteous and being declared righteous, especially if the declaration and choosing is from God, and, the only “way” to righteousness is “by grace, through faith” (St. Paul)? It seems “works” of the law (in Paul’s reckoning–all works, not just ceremonial law) are out! Works being a necessary result of righteousness (being justified) are a separate thing from the righteousness itself and when conflated with grace/gospel, the things we think, say, or do are no assurance. If we rely on them, how do we know if we’ve done enough, well enough? At the same time, demanding any work of the law to prove one’s justification is a work in itself, which could never save. Christ’s death was sufficient, with nothing added to it or his death was in vain and we still in our sins and are to be pitied, as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[Vico]

Is there any difference between being made righteous and being declared righteous, especially if the declaration and choosing is from God, and, the only “way” to righteousness is “by grace, through faith” (St. Paul)? It seems “works” of the law (in Paul’s reckoning–all works, not just ceremonial law) are out! Works being a necessary result of righteousness (being justified) are a separate thing from the righteousness itself and when conflated with grace/gospel, the things we think, say, or do are no assurance. If we rely on them, how do we know if we’ve done enough, well enough? At the same time, demanding any work of the law to prove one’s justification is a work in itself, which could never save. Christ’s death was sufficient, with nothing added to it or his death was in vain and we still in our sins and are to be pitied, as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15.

Righteousness (being justified) itself is lost through mortal sin, but may be restored later, but not after death.

 

[JEH]

Mortal sin being sin against the Holy Spirit (unbelief–rejection of the truth of the Gospel)? Right? Christ suffered and died for all sin, for all people, even those who may not now believe, yet later (in life) come to believe and trust Christ and the sufficiency of his life, death and resurrection as his saving work for all mankind. My knees buckle a little when I imagine trying to stand before God and enumerating all the things I think should be considered by him to add to, or be equal payment to the sacrifice of Christ. I would expect then to be thrown out. Works cannot enter into justification but will, given any time, be a resultant. Two separate categories…it’s either by grace through faith or it’s by works and Scripture doesn’t allow for any work of man to justify, as even our own consciences tell us.

 

[daverod]

Praying is ‘works’. Attending Church is ‘works’. Singing Halleluyah is ‘works’.

But let your ‘works’ be True and not false.

If you hear from the lips of the preacher false things, be true and do not give it heed. If possible, turn away from such. A walk in Truth to God is better than a walk in the broad way with Preachers.

 

[Cathoholic]

JEH:

Works cannot enter into justification but will, given any time, be a resultant.

.
St. Paul says sometimes works might not be a “resultant” of faith.

Then WHAT?

Works cannot enter into the moment of justification.

But once you are justified, WHY NOT?

Isn’t it really Jesus working IN YOU and THROUGH you then?

Does YOUR faith “enter into” your justification? (If it does, doesn’t THAT detract from Jesus too? Why or why not?)