Faith vs. Works

[Cathoholic]

JonNC. Do YOU think “the Epistle of James is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture”? I’m not asking if James’ statement about Abraham does seem to contradict Paul’s.

I just want to know, do you think the Epistle of James is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC. Do YOU think “the Epistle of James is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture”? I’m not asking if James’ statement about Abraham does seem to contradict Paul’s.

I just want to know, do you think the Epistle of James is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture?

No

Jon

 

[bsroufek]

Concerning Faith and Works, Jesus said:

Luke 8:21, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”

Matt 7:21, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

So, we must have BOTH Faith and Works, not one vs. the other in a false dichotomy.

 

[hn160]

From the Augsburg Confession

27 Furthermore, we teach that it is necessary to do good works. This does not mean that we merit grace by doing good works, but because it is God’s will [Ephesians 2:10]. 28 It is only by faith, and nothing else, that forgiveness of sins is apprehended. 29 The Holy Spirit is received through faith, hearts are renewed and given new affections, and then they are able to bring forth good works. 30 Ambrose says: “Faith is the mother of a good will and doing what is right.” 31 Without the Holy Spirit people are full of ungodly desires. They are too weak to do works that are good in God’s sight [John 15:5]. 32 Besides, they are in the power of the devil, who pushes human beings into various sins, ungodly opinions, and open crimes. 33 We see this in the philosophers, who, although they tried to live an honest life could not succeed, but were defiled with many open crimes. 34 Such is human weakness, without faith and without the Holy Spirit, when governed only by human strength.
35 Therefore, it is easy to see that this doctrine is not to be accused of banning good works. Instead, it is to be commended all the more because it shows how we are enabled to do good works. 36 For without faith, human nature cannot, in any way, do the works of the First or Second Commandment [1 Corinthians 2:14]. 37 Without faith, human nature does not call upon God, nor expect anything from Him, nor bear the cross [Matthew 16:24]. Instead, human nature seeks and trusts in human help. 38 So when there is no faith and trust in God, all kinds of lusts and human intentions rule in the heart [Genesis 6:5]. 39 This is why Christ says, “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). That is why the Church sings: “Lacking Your divine favor, there is nothing in man. 40 Nothing in him is harmless.”

Lutherans believe that Good works will follow in our belief in Christ but will not count as merit before God in our salvation.

 

[Cathoholic]

Tempelritter. You asked:

How do Catholics and Protestants reconcile their . . .

James 2:24

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I and others responded, you believe them BOTH!

So the real question is, HOW can we reconcile both James 2:24 and Ephesians 2:8-9 (and has been stated earlier, add Ephesians verse 10 too which states we were made for “good works”).

As we look at this, let’s see what Catholic Christians and Protestants both affirm in union.

What do Catholics and Protestants BOTH affirm together? . . . .

 

[Heart_Foam]

Oh this is a fun thread. No one defines their terms. Because I assure you what Protestants mean by “faith” and what Catholics mean by “faith” are very different. To be precise, the proximate object of faith is different. This faith/works debate tends to get reduced to Protestants having faith alone, and Catholics faith + works. I have a good Catholic friend - very devout, cradle Catholic - who can not tell me straight what role personal faith in Jesus actually serves in Catholic soteriology. Which is not surprising. The profession of faith on becoming Catholic after all affirms faith in what-the-RCC-says-about-God, not in God directly. I cannot fathom what Catholics must believe in order to be saved except for believing in the Roman Catholic church. CrossofChrist says:

OTOH, in the Catholic tradition, justification consists not only of a declaration from God saying we are “clean”, but also of an interior cleansing so to speak, and after this interior transformation where faith, hope, and divine charity are infused in our souls, we are seen as right in God’s eyes. We are declared “righteous” or “justified” by God only after this inner conversion. This of course made possible through the Passion of Our Lord who merited the grace for our salvation. In Catholicism, justification and sanctification are seen as one and the same thing.

And Catholics are justified by baptism - not faith. Baptism is not not simply the outward sign of inner faith, but it, like all Catholic sacraments, works ex opere operato. “By the work worked”. So that still leaves me asking what need Catholics have for faith. CrossofChrist has a good grasp of Catholic salvation, and it’s clear that faith in Christ isn’t necessary.

But let’s continue. Should you commit a mortal sin you are re-justified by penance - not faith. Your justification is increased by “good works through divine grace” - not faith. “Temporal punishment” for sins denies Christ took the full punishment in your place, so you do not put your faith in Christ for that like Protestants do. You have to suffer “satisfactory punishments” (Trent’s words) to satisfy the justice of God by making reparation for sin (did Jesus suffer the punishment for your sin, which made no difference to anything because you must still suffer too?), until which time - either in this world or the next (purgatory) - you are separated from God. Man was separated from God at the fall, and Jesus’ sacrifice for the sins of mankind has not restored anything for Catholics who still cannot “approach the throne of grace with confidence” (Hebrews 4:16) because that would be the sin of presumption. Personal trust in Jesus Christ doesn’t doesn’t come into it. In practice, it’s only “works”. When I ask what Catholics must believe in order to go to heaven, I’m not being silly. If Catholics want to debate about “faith alone” as opposed to “faith + works” then that assumes faith plays some role. I really want to know: what is the content of Catholic faith in Christ and what role does it play in justification? Is the proximate object of Catholic faith Christ… or the RCC? Make no mistake, the faith alone vs. faith + works debate speaks right to the heart of the Gospel. Either Jesus’ sacrifice is once and sufficient, or it was insufficient and needs adding to. Let’s avoid the fallacy of moderation in this case: it has to be one or the other, there is no middle ground. And how one answers that will be reflected in whether you subscribe to sola fide or not.

Before entering into another “faith vs. works” debate, and we’ve all seen these before, Catholics need to fight to make faith in Christ part of the debate in the first place. End this thread here and now. Have the debate about the role of justifying faith in Catholicism first.

And Jon S, you quote a whole lot of Scripture - are you using private judgement like a Protestant or has the Infallible Interpreter finally got around to interpreting those verses?

God bless
Stephen

 

[Good_Fella]

The chief concerns of Paul and James were freedom from guilt and being holy in order to be saved. James was more inclined to stress what a person must do to be saved; unless a person was truly charitable by the grace of God, they could not be justified notwithstanding their faith. Paul, on the other hand, emphasised what a person could never hope to be without saving grace through the merits of our Lord and Saviour: justified. But for him salvation had two dimensions: formal and instrumental. In harmony with the teachings of James, he believed that both faith and good works done in charity and grace justified a person before God. The main theme that runs current in Romans 2-4 is that the Jews have no grounds for boasting, since it does not matter whether they are in possession of the Mosaic law (ceremonial or moral), descended from Abraham, or circumcised. What renders both Jew and Gentile intrinsically righteous before God is sanctifying grace without which we cannot be saved. Paul speaks of grace as a form of law of the New Dispensation by which the Jew and Gentile are able to walk in the spirit instead of the flesh, by the indwelling of Christ’s Spirit which the law of the Old Covenant could never accomplish for anyone (Rom 8:1-11). It is through this indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we can be adopted as the children of God and entitled to the promise of salvation (Rom 8:12-25). All Christians are justified by their faith in Christ, since our Lord is the end of the law (Rom 10:24). Yet the fulfillment of the law of Christ is brought about by the love we show towards others. Our justification is thus an ongoing internal and personal process, not a single external and impersonal event in our lives (Rom 13: 8, 10).

James wrote his epistle with a moral purpose. His main intention was to exhort the Jewish converts to be constant in the faith despite their terrible trials and to console and encourage them as well. He urged them to conform the conduct of their lives to the principles of their faith in an attempt to extirpate the evils and abuses which plagued their communities. Unless they did what he exhorted them to do, their faith would not save them, since it was a faith that had become “dead” and “useless” as an essential means for salvation (Jas 2:17, 20).

***For just as a body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
James 2, 26 ***

By our being justified by faith alone, the infused theological virtues of faith and love lose their essential distinctness in the justification process, as the latter virtue is appropriated by the former becoming its inherent attribute. Ontologically speaking, charity loses its individual identity and can no longer stand as a requisite of justification together in mutuality with faith. Such a notion does not square with what Paul meant when he wrote: “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal 5:5-6). Faith is faith and love is love in the justification process. So an idle faith does not profit the soul. It is not a question of actually not having faith to begin with. For us to be reckoned as just in God’s sight, our faith must be spurred into action by love through the prompting of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. James concurred with Paul when he wrote “faith by itself” does not save; it must be informed by charity. In fact, not doing good works in charity and grace is a sin of omission (4:17). In the Parable of the Good Samaritan it was he who the Lord justified. Nor does a charitable predisposition alone save. It is not enough for us to merely feel compassion towards those in need or know what is the right thing to do (2:15-16). We are called to be both “hearers” and “doers” of the word of Christ to be declared just before God (1:22).

An idle faith can be compared to a lifeless body. For the body to be animated, it must be united with the soul or spirit. Faith is just as dead as a corpse is when unanimated by love and charity. Obviously love and charity are no more attributes of faith than the soul is an attribute of the body. A human being is a composite of soul and body - spirit and physical matter - just as faith and love (expressed by ‘sincere’ charitable deeds) are attributes of a justified person before God. Indeed James does not refer to people who only imagine that they have faith, but have never really had it in the first place, since it would be senseless of him to presuppose by his analogy that the body could exist without the soul. There is faith, but it is idle, just as there is an unanimated body at some point in time. Hence, not unlike Paul, James perceived faith and charity as two distinct and essential virtues operating in mutual dependence on each other by the grace of God to complete the justification process. This process begins with faith (the law of Christ) and reaches its completion when faith is informed by charity (the fulfillment of the law of Christ). Likewise, our humanity begins by our physical conception in the womb and is brought to completion by the infusion of our souls the instant we are conceived.

Both Paul and James used the same Greek verb dikaiow meaning “justified” or “made righteous” (Rom 4:3 - Jas 2:21; Rom 3:23 - Jas 2:24). They perceived sanctification as the principle determination (formal cause) of justification. For them sanctification was the inherent element that made justification what it substantially was and allowed it to fulfill its purpose (freedom from personal guilt) and achieve its end (personal salvation). In fact, the two terms are interchangeably used in Scripture (Rom 5:19; Heb 13:12; Rom 5:9; 2 Thess 2:13).

PAX

 

[WorkingFaith]

I saw someone post something about why don’t we just see what Jesus said and quoted Jesus telling people to work. So, I thought I would through something in that I actually heard at Mass with my wife. We didn’t actually discuss the scripture on this but it was one of the readings. Luke 7:36-50 go and read it cause I’m just going to paraphrase what happens. Jesus is eating with the Pharisees a sinful women comes in and is kissing his feet and pouring ointment on Him she washes His feet with her hair and tears and Jesus after a parable and some talk between the Pharisees turns to her and says “Your faith has saved you…” Works manifest faith. So we see what she did as Jesus said she is saved but what Jesus said isn’t that your works saved you it was her faith. Also to the guy who wrote the page about catholic faith and protestant faith I think that doing those works shows that a person has faith, but a person shouldn’t do works thinking that they are doing it in order to be saved. Anyway just thought I would introduce that to the conversation so people would have text of Jesus saying a person is saved by faith.

 

[ffg]

The Our Father.

If we want to have any confidence in the hope of mercy, which might bring about residence in Heaven.

We must do as we were told to pray - ‘Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us’.

If we don’t show mercy, which absolutely is a conscious process, we should not expect the same from God.

 

[ffg]

Lutherans believe that Good works will follow in our belief in Christ but will not count as merit before God in our salvation.

2 questions regarding this statement -

Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell - Are the ‘final four’ a belief in the Lutheran tradition?

If so, I’m guessing there would be a varying definition of Judgement, so what does it mean in the Lutheran tradition?

Thank you.

 

[Jon_S_1]

HEART FOAM,

You make serious errors in your analysis. Without Personal faith in Christ and his death and resurrection all the things you rail against are mute.

Do we have Faith in the church, yes because we have faith in Christ and his promises.

Do we have faith in baptism, yes because we have faith in Christ that if we are born again we will have eternal life.

Do we have faith in our penance? Sort of, Really we have faith in Christ and his promises to forgive us and that if we repent we will be saved. We have faith that he loves us and desires relationship with us and we demonstrate that faith and love in our penance. Further, without this understanding your penance is not very worthwhile.

You want to understand what the Catholic Church teaches?

Galatians 5:5-6 For we [c]through the Spirit, [d]by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

If your having trouble finding Faith in the Catechism, I suggest you actually read it. The first section Article 1 Section 1 speaks in detail on faith as does the majority of the catechism.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c3a1.htm

Here are a couple sections

150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.17

154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of. . . intellect and will to God who reveals”,26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith."44 To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith;45 it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.46

 

[Good_Fella]

I saw someone post something about why don’t we just see what Jesus said and quoted Jesus telling people to work. So, I thought I would through something in that I actually heard at Mass with my wife. We didn’t actually discuss the scripture on this but it was one of the readings. Luke 7:36-50 go and read it cause I’m just going to paraphrase what happens. Jesus is eating with the Pharisees a sinful women comes in and is kissing his feet and pouring ointment on Him she washes His feet with her hair and tears and Jesus after a parable and some talk between the Pharisees turns to her and says “Your faith has saved you…” Works manifest faith. So we see what she did as Jesus said she is saved but what Jesus said isn’t that your works saved you it was her faith. Also to the guy who wrote the page about catholic faith and protestant faith I think that doing those works shows that a person has faith, but a person shouldn’t do works thinking that they are doing it in order to be saved. Anyway just thought I would introduce that to the conversation so people would have text of Jesus saying a person is saved by faith.

Before Jesus told the sinful Mary Magdalene that her faith had saved her, he said to the Pharisee (v.47): “Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much” (NKJV). It may appear by what Jesus said to her in v.50 that the cause of her salvation was attributed to her faith alone. But a genuine conversion consists not only in having faith but also in having hope and love coupled with a great sorrow for one’s sins against God. Mary was not so much justified by her faith as she was by her love for Jesus and her penitent act of charity towards him because of her sorrow for her past sins. It was because of the magnitude of her sinful life that her sorrow was as great as it was as a manifestation of her love of God whom she rediscovered in the person of Jesus through his preaching and miracles. True, she had faith in Jesus, who gave her new hope, or else she wouldn’t have come to him and humbled herself. But she didn’t have that faith in which she would have believed that she was already justified and forgiven before our Lord spoke to her after she had washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. Faith is the beginning of the justification process which cannot be completed without love and acts of charity and grace. If she had not believed in Jesus, she wouldn’t have acted as she did for the remission of her sins. In this way her faith had saved her. But it was not faith alone, but rather faith informed by charity. It was Mary’s “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6) that justified her. She was neither concerned with getting to heaven by placing God in her debt or settling an account nor acting out of gratitude for having been given a free ticket to heaven. What prompted her to act as she did in her sorrow was purely her love of God for his sake alone. The personal rediscovery of the Father’s love for her, in spite of her sinfulness, made her realize how deficient she was in the love she should return to him, but was denied all this time by her sinful life.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1, 9

PAX

 

[WorkingFaith]

Before Jesus told the sinful Mary Magdalene that her faith had saved her, he said to the Pharisee (v.47): “Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much” (NKJV). It may appear by what Jesus said to her in v.50 that the cause of her salvation was attributed to her faith alone. But a genuine conversion consists not only in having faith but also in having hope and love coupled with a great sorrow for one’s sins against God. Mary was not so much justified by her faith as she was by her love for Jesus and her penitent act of charity towards him because of her sorrow for her past sins. It was because of the magnitude of her sinful life that her sorrow was as great as it was as a manifestation of her love of God whom she rediscovered in the person of Jesus through his preaching and miracles. True, she had faith in Jesus, who gave her new hope, or else she wouldn’t have come to him and humbled herself. But she didn’t have that faith in which she would have believed that she was already justified and forgiven before our Lord spoke to her after she had washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. Faith is the beginning of the justification process which cannot be completed without love and acts of charity and grace. If she had not believed in Jesus, she wouldn’t have acted as she did for the remission of her sins. In this way her faith had saved her. But it was not faith alone, but rather faith informed by charity. It was Mary’s “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6) that justified her. She was neither concerned with getting to heaven by placing God in her debt or settling an account nor acting out of gratitude for having been given a free ticket to heaven. What prompted her to act as she did in her sorrow was purely her love of God for his sake alone. The personal rediscovery of the Father’s love for her, in spite of her sinfulness, made her realize how deficient she was in the love she should return to him, but was denied all this time by her sinful life.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1, 9

PAX

I see what you are saying and I agree with you but Jesus told her it was her faith that saved her. What she did by washing his feet and all that was amazing. We should all approach Christ in this way but what drove her to do what she did was the fact she believed Christ was who He said He was and that He could forgive Her sins. So it was her faith that saved her. That is what the text says. Jesus saw all of the things that she did, told the Pharisees that because her love her sins were forgiven and then tells her that her faith has saved her. He could of told her that because of what you just did you are saved but He didn’t. I’m not saying that if you sit at a distance and claim faith than you are saved by that faith. Just like Mary’s faith put her at the feet of Christ so should ours. Again, I understand and agree with what you said for the most part but you it was love that moved Christ to forgive her sins and faith that saved her.

 

[concretecamper]

Oh this is a fun thread. No one defines their terms. Because I assure you what Protestants mean by “faith” and what Catholics mean by “faith” are very different. To be precise, the proximate object of faith is different. This faith/works debate tends to get reduced to Protestants having faith alone, and Catholics faith + works. I have a good Catholic friend - very devout, cradle Catholic - who can not tell me straight what role personal faith in Jesus actually serves in Catholic soteriology. Which is not surprising. The profession of faith on becoming Catholic after all affirms faith in what-the-RCC-says-about-God, not in God directly. I cannot fathom what Catholics must believe in order to be saved except for believing in the Roman Catholic church. CrossofChrist says:

And Catholics are justified by baptism - not faith. Baptism is not not simply the outward sign of inner faith, but it, like all Catholic sacraments, works ex opere operato. “By the work worked”. So that still leaves me asking what need Catholics have for faith. CrossofChrist has a good grasp of Catholic salvation, and it’s clear that faith in Christ isn’t necessary.

But let’s continue. Should you commit a mortal sin you are re-justified by penance - not faith. Your justification is increased by “good works through divine grace” - not faith. “Temporal punishment” for sins denies Christ took the full punishment in your place, so you do not put your faith in Christ for that like Protestants do. You have to suffer “satisfactory punishments” (Trent’s words) to satisfy the justice of God by making reparation for sin (did Jesus suffer the punishment for your sin, which made no difference to anything because you must still suffer too?), until which time - either in this world or the next (purgatory) - you are separated from God. Man was separated from God at the fall, and Jesus’ sacrifice for the sins of mankind has not restored anything for Catholics who still cannot “approach the throne of grace with confidence” (Hebrews 4:16) because that would be the sin of presumption. Personal trust in Jesus Christ doesn’t doesn’t come into it. In practice, it’s only “works”. When I ask what Catholics must believe in order to go to heaven, I’m not being silly. If Catholics want to debate about “faith alone” as opposed to “faith + works” then that assumes faith plays some role. I really want to know: what is the content of Catholic faith in Christ and what role does it play in justification? Is the proximate object of Catholic faith Christ… or the RCC? Make no mistake, the faith alone vs. faith + works debate speaks right to the heart of the Gospel. Either Jesus’ sacrifice is once and sufficient, or it was insufficient and needs adding to. Let’s avoid the fallacy of moderation in this case: it has to be one or the other, there is no middle ground. And how one answers that will be reflected in whether you subscribe to sola fide or not.

Before entering into another “faith vs. works” debate, and we’ve all seen these before, Catholics need to fight to make faith in Christ part of the debate in the first place. End this thread here and now. Have the debate about the role of justifying faith in Catholicism first.

And Jon S, you quote a whole lot of Scripture - are you using private judgement like a Protestant or has the Infallible Interpreter finally got around to interpreting those verses?

God bless
Stephen

It seems you dictate Catholic position without really knowing them. Please read what I posted earlier regarding Trent

 

[Jon_S_1]

I see what you are saying and I agree with you but Jesus told her it was her faith that saved her. What she did by washing his feet and all that was amazing. We should all approach Christ in this way but what drove her to do what she did was the fact she believed Christ was who He said He was and that He could forgive Her sins. So it was her faith that saved her. That is what the text says. Jesus saw all of the things that she did, told the Pharisees that because her love her sins were forgiven and then tells her that her faith has saved her. He could of told her that because of what you just did you are saved but He didn’t. I’m not saying that if you sit at a distance and claim faith than you are saved by that faith. Just like Mary’s faith put her at the feet of Christ so should ours. Again, I understand and agree with what you said for the most part but you it was love that moved Christ to forgive her sins and faith that saved her.

Faith without deeds is dead.

In the ultimate act of humility and love and respect, she sought forgiveness and washed his feet. Jesus knew her heart and knew that a TRUE lasting faith saves her.

You see faith is not intellectual belief.

Faith is so much more than that.

Faith is a life transformation.

Faith is something we profess daily in our words and deeds.

Faith is choosing to believe in Christ so fully, your life is lived as if he is walking next to you everyday. Because if you really believe in Christ, he is there with you always. He knows your every thought word and deed.

He is ready to forgive you and give you his love and grace whenever you mess up or seek him, but your belief and faith must be focused on him.

I hope you can agree!

 

[WorkingFaith]

Faith without deeds is dead.

In the ultimate act of humility and love and respect, she sought forgiveness and washed his feet. Jesus knew her heart and knew that a TRUE lasting faith saves her.

You see faith is not intellectual belief.

Faith is so much more than that.

Faith is a life transformation.

Faith is something we profess daily in our words and deeds.

Faith is choosing to believe in Christ so fully, your life is lived as if he is walking next to you everyday. Because if you really believe in Christ, he is there with you always. He knows your every thought word and deed.

He is ready to forgive you and give you his love and grace whenever you mess up or seek him, but your belief and faith must be focused on him.

I hope you can agree!

Without a doubt agree with you. I love your example of faith also. Reading what she did is amazing and really tugs on my heart. It makes you think about your own relationship with Christ. Personally when I read this I question where I see myself with Jesus. Am I proud sitting at the table with Him or do I really understand my sinfulness and how unworthy I am. Anyways I think that the definition of faith you gave is right on. Faith is a powerful thing that knocks you off the rails of this world that leads to death. Once you have experience that true faith you will desire to mature, you will desire to obey, you will desire to sacrifice for others. That being said Jesus still says it was the faith that saved her, and based on your definition of faith it also produces the works that manifests our faith.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Without a doubt agree with you. I love your example of faith also. Reading what she did is amazing and really tugs on my heart. It makes you think about your own relationship with Christ. Personally when I read this I question where I see myself with Jesus. Am I proud sitting at the table with Him or do I really understand my sinfulness and how unworthy I am. Anyways I think that the definition of faith you gave is right on. Faith is a powerful thing that knocks you off the rails of this world that leads to death. Once you have experience that true faith you will desire to mature, you will desire to obey, you will desire to sacrifice for others. That being said Jesus still says it was the faith that saved her, and based on your definition of faith it also produces the works that manifests our faith.

I see nothing contrary to what we discussed in Catholic teaching. I am glad you agree! When I was Evangelical I was under the idea faith was just “believing Jesus died on the cross for your sins”. I was also under the once saved always saved persuasion. Both positions water down and nearly make a mockery of the gospel.

I started to see this when I was evangelical, and taking that road of truly trying to walk with Jesus, as well as discerning the historical, apostolic church led me home by Gods grace to the Catholic Church.

I believe Galations 5:6 best summarizes the relationship between faith and works.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Second might be 1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of [c]prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I [d]became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror [e]dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the [f]greatest of these is love.

I find it do interesting that Paul said love was greatest and not faith as some would expect. Naturally as we discussed and as Galatians points out, without love, you cannot have faith.

God Bless!

 

[WorkingFaith]

I see nothing contrary to what we discussed in Catholic teaching. I am glad you agree! When I was Evangelical I was under the idea faith was just “believing Jesus died on the cross for your sins”. I was also under the once saved always saved persuasion. Both positions water down and nearly make a mockery of the gospel.

I started to see this when I was evangelical, and taking that road of truly trying to walk with Jesus, as well as discerning the historical, apostolic church led me home by Gods grace to the Catholic Church.

I believe Galations 5:6 best summarizes the relationship between faith and works.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Second might be 1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of [c]prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I [d]became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror [e]dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the [f]greatest of these is love.

I find it do interesting that Paul said love was greatest and not faith as some would expect. Naturally as we discussed and as Galatians points out, without love, you cannot have faith.

God Bless!

I got a question for you on losing salvation. As far as I understand it we don’t know if we are saved or not. We can have assurance, but never truly know until the time comes. I think where I defer with the Catholic teaching is that I believe we are elected by God. So in the sense that God has elected me to be saved I cannot lose my salvation. That being said if 5 years from now I am cursing God’s name that just shows I really never was chosen it was just a “phase” of my life in a sense. So I didn’t lose my salvation, I was never part of the elect in the first place. How does that compare to the Catholic teaching? So to summarize this, in case it is confusing to follow, I cannot humanly have complete knowledge that I am saved. Therefore, I cannot lose something that I never had. However, since God has elected his chosen people in that sense I cannot lose my salvation. Problem is we can’t really know if we are saved or not until we get to judgement.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I got a question for you on losing salvation. As far as I understand it we don’t know if we are saved or not. We can have assurance, but never truly know until the time comes. I think where I defer with the Catholic teaching is that I believe we are elected by God. So in the sense that God has elected me to be saved I cannot lose my salvation. That being said if 5 years from now I am cursing God’s name that just shows I really never was chosen it was just a “phase” of my life in a sense. So I didn’t lose my salvation, I was never part of the elect in the first place. How does that compare to the Catholic teaching? So to summarize this, in case it is confusing to follow, I cannot humanly have complete knowledge that I am saved. Therefore, I cannot lose something that I never had. However, since God has elected his chosen people in that sense I cannot lose my salvation. Problem is we can’t really know if we are saved or not until we get to judgement.

Thanks in advance.

Yeah I follow you there, I suppose I can’t really disagree. I think what happens in disagreement is a mix of semantics and focus.

As your position states, you focus on whoever is elect, but no one knows who if any, until after death, so a focus in this area seems a bit futile.

You sort of hold the position that, one can live for Christ their whole life and at the final hours could renounce God, or turn from him in sinful behavior and we just say he was NEVER saved to begin with.

I think that’s close, but superficial. I would say he was saved, but chose himself and chose not to be saved in the end.

In Catholic teaching we are saved in baptism. Washed clean and if we died in that moment we would go to heaven, as it says in 2 Peter 3, “Baptism now saves you”. That saving grace comes from our faith in the grace of God in baptism, or in the faith of our parents later to be confirmed ourselves at confirmation.

Ok

Then we must work out this salvation with fear and trembling as Paul states. We live for Christ and pursue his will. If we stumble and fall by commiting serious sin we fracture the relationship by focusing on us instead of Christ. As such as long as we are turned from Him, we lose our salvation (or perhaps you’d say never saved to begin with). There is hope though, because Gods gracious gift is always there. If we repent and return to Christ he is faithful to forgive us.

So the focus of a Catholic teaching is the free will of man and the daily relationship with Christ, whereas your position is more focused on the end game and what may or may not happen there.

A good analogy goes like this.

If you came to my office for a meeting and I told you all you have to do is stay in my office for your whole life and you can have salvation and it’s your choice to freely decide. You may say great!

But if I tied you to the chair or locked the door so you could not leave how free of a choice would you be making?

For Catholics the door is always unlocked, so you can come in or sadly leave whenever you like. That makes the decision to be in the office a true free decision. Salvation will only come though if at the end you are in the office.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[WorkingFaith]

Yeah I follow you there, I suppose I can’t really disagree. I think what happens in disagreement is a mix of semantics and focus.

As your position states, you focus on whoever is elect, but no one knows who if any, until after death, so a focus in this area seems a bit futile.

You sort of hold the position that, one can live for Christ their whole life and at the final hours could renounce God, or turn from him in sinful behavior and we just say he was NEVER saved to begin with.

I think that’s close, but superficial. I would say he was saved, but chose himself and chose not to be saved in the end.

In Catholic teaching we are saved in baptism. Washed clean and if we died in that moment we would go to heaven, as it says in 2 Peter 3, “Baptism now saves you”. That saving grace comes from our faith in the grace of God in baptism, or in the faith of our parents later to be confirmed ourselves at confirmation.

Ok

Then we must work out this salvation with fear and trembling as Paul states. We live for Christ and pursue his will. If we stumble and fall by commiting serious sin we fracture the relationship by focusing on us instead of Christ. As such as long as we are turned from Him, we lose our salvation (or perhaps you’d say never saved to begin with). There is hope though, because Gods gracious gift is always there. If we repent and return to Christ he is faithful to forgive us.

So the focus of a Catholic teaching is the free will of man and the daily relationship with Christ, whereas your position is more focused on the end game and what may or may not happen there.

A good analogy goes like this.

If you came to my office for a meeting and I told you all you have to do is stay in my office for your whole life and you can have salvation and it’s your choice to freely decide. You may say great!

But if I tied you to the chair or locked the door so you could not leave how free of a choice would you be making?

For Catholics the door is always unlocked, so you can come in or sadly leave whenever you like. That makes the decision to be in the office a true free decision. Salvation will only come though if at the end you are in the office.

Hope that makes sense.

I don’t know if it would be superficial, people fall away from living a “Christ-like” life everyday to never return. I can understand what you are saying but I don’t know if I necessarily agree. Doesn’t Ephesians 2 say that our faith (which saves us and produces works) is a gift from God through His grace, and that our works were prepared by God before-hand to be our way of Life. So those that receive faith from God to believe had works prepared by God before-hand to be our way of life. This is why in a sense you “need works” because it comes with the faith given by God as our way of life. People should be able to look at our life and say you must be a Christian simply because they way we live. On a side note last night at Bible Study a guy said we must live a righteous life because for many people that will be the only Bible they every read. Anyways, the baptism isn’t the washing away of dirt but its the appeal to God. Not the dipping in water it is the appealing to God that saves, but that isn’t really the point of it. I’m pretty sure there is a Psalm that says God puts boundaries on our life, He wont let us go so far. I say that for the example about your office. First off I have the whole entire office to exercise my free will but the walls (boundaries) were placed by God. I heard a preacher say that God gives us free will but it wont overcome what he has planned. If He wants you out of a room than He will put a hornet in their to get you out. Don’t confuse me saying that we don’t have free will I’m just saying the world is in submission to God. Who knows our own choices very well may be the manifestation of God’s will. This convo could get really deep. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.