Faith vs. Works

[Jon_S_1]

I don’t know if it would be superficial, people fall away from living a “Christ-like” life everyday to never return. I can understand what you are saying but I don’t know if I necessarily agree. Doesn’t Ephesians 2 say that our faith (which saves us and produces works) is a gift from God through His grace, and that our works were prepared by God before-hand to be our way of Life. So those that receive faith from God to believe had works prepared by God before-hand to be our way of life. This is why in a sense you “need works” because it comes with the faith given by God as our way of life. People should be able to look at our life and say you must be a Christian simply because they way we live. On a side note last night at Bible Study a guy said we must live a righteous life because for many people that will be the only Bible they every read. Anyways, the baptism isn’t the washing away of dirt but its the appeal to God. Not the dipping in water it is the appealing to God that saves, but that isn’t really the point of it. I’m pretty sure there is a Psalm that says God puts boundaries on our life, He wont let us go so far. I say that for the example about your office. First off I have the whole entire office to exercise my free will but the walls (boundaries) were placed by God. I heard a preacher say that God gives us free will but it wont overcome what he has planned. If He wants you out of a room than He will put a hornet in their to get you out. Don’t confuse me saying that we don’t have free will I’m just saying the world is in submission to God. Who knows our own choices very well may be the manifestation of God’s will. This convo could get really deep. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

I would just add to your thinking on God’s gift.

For some reason we always think if God gives us his gift of salvation that we are somehow stuck with it.

No, just like if I worked tirelessly and dramatically and sacrificially and gave you a really fabulous gift…even a life saving gift, that had no bearing on whether you keep it or not.

You could keep it a while and let it get list, put it in the garage in a box, or even throw it away. The fact it is a precious gift may make it harder to throw away , at least if you understand it, but nonetheless it can be given back or thrown away.

The beauty of Christ is that he is always there with hand outstretched offering his gift to us. We just have to grab it and keep it and nurture it, as Jesus talks about in the parable of the talents and the potters field.

Ultimately don’t let things like “election” “predestination” and even “free will” get in the way if living out the gospel.

 

[WorkingFaith]

I would just add to your thinking on God’s gift.

For some reason we always think if God gives us his gift of salvation that we are somehow stuck with it.

No, just like if I worked tirelessly and dramatically and sacrificially and gave you a really fabulous gift…even a life saving gift, that had no bearing on whether you keep it or not.

You could keep it a while and let it get list, put it in the garage in a box, or even throw it away. The fact it is a precious gift may make it harder to throw away , at least if you understand it, but nonetheless it can be given back or thrown away.

The beauty of Christ is that he is always there with hand outstretched offering his gift to us. We just have to grab it and keep it and nurture it, as Jesus talks about in the parable of the talents and the potters field.

Ultimately don’t let things like “election” “predestination” and even “free will” get in the way if living out the gospel.

I tell people all the time the day you think you are good enough to go to heaven, at that moment you are further away from Christ than you have ever been. I think the more we grow in Christ the more we understand how much we need Him and how short we fall. So I will say the same for this. The day I stop living out the gospel because I am “elected”, at that moment I am further away from Christ than I have ever been. This is just my opinion though.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I tell people all the time the day you think you are good enough to go to heaven, at that moment you are further away from Christ than you have ever been. I think the more we grow in Christ the more we understand how much we need Him and how short we fall. So I will say the same for this. The day I stop living out the gospel because I am “elected”, at that moment I am further away from Christ than I have ever been. This is just my opinion though.

I couldn’t agree more !

Do you mind sharing what branch of Protestantism you are in?

 

[LightandHeat]

There is some really fruitful discussion in this thread! I just have a couple small things to add.

As far as the whole “elect” thing goes, I have a couple problems with this idea in general. First that it appears to directly the Parable of the Sower! I would imagine there could only be two types of soil in the parable if this view was correct. Also, we can see from this forum that many atheists have turned into true believers. Have none of us ever met a person who use to be a strong Christian lose our faith? In fact, some of us have been this person! (and returned again, thanks be to God)

St. Paul writes that we were saved by Christ’s work on the cross, yet we are also in the process of being saved. There is a race to run, and a good fight to fight. Yes, we all stumble but we must not be complacent.

 

[WorkingFaith]

I couldn’t agree more !

Do you mind sharing what branch of Protestantism you are in?

I attend a southern baptist church mainly because of their sunday morning classes. The teacher of the class is very solid and has put other solid teachers in my path also. He didn’t do a bible college or anything just a layman who has spent his life pursuing God. It is a smaller church probably 200-300 people I just say that so you don’t think its a “mega” church I’m not a fan of those. I have attended mega churches though, they are just “motivational teachers”. I also attend mass Saturday nights with my wife but i don’t consider myself Catholic. To shorten this basically I mostly agree with southern baptist teachings but I just try and stick to the gospel and pursue the heart of God. Sorry I couldn’t be more specific haha.

 

[WorkingFaith]

There is some really fruitful discussion in this thread! I just have a couple small things to add.

As far as the whole “elect” thing goes, I have a couple problems with this idea in general. First that it appears to directly the Parable of the Sower! I would imagine there could only be two types of soil in the parable if this view was correct. Also, we can see from this forum that many atheists have turned into true believers. Have none of us ever met a person who use to be a strong Christian lose our faith? In fact, some of us have been this person! (and returned again, thanks be to God)

St. Paul writes that we were saved by Christ’s work on the cross, yet we are also in the process of being saved. There is a race to run, and a good fight to fight. Yes, we all stumble but we must not be complacent.

I appreciate the comment of fruitful discussion, couldn’t be possible if it weren’t for Jon S ( I think that was the name). To many times I have seen discussion go south on the forum.

Not sure if I totally grasp the sower parable reference. With election there is only two outcomes but it does not mean that they can’t “shoot up when they receive the gospel and die off” or “be chocked out by thorns” etc…(those aren’t exact quotes by the way). I think I had made a reference that people fall away which also means that can come back however many times or whatever. The process of sanctification we are being “pruned” “purified” so that on that final day we can be presented blameless. I think it is in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 5 that it talks about this.

 

[LightandHeat]

I appreciate the comment of fruitful discussion, couldn’t be possible if it weren’t for Jon S ( I think that was the name). To many times I have seen discussion go south on the forum.

Not sure if I totally grasp the sower parable reference. With election there is only two outcomes but it does not mean that they can’t “shoot up when they receive the gospel and die off” or “be chocked out by thorns” etc…(those aren’t exact quotes by the way). I think I had made a reference that people fall away which also means that can come back however many times or whatever. The process of sanctification we are being “pruned” “purified” so that on that final day we can be presented blameless. I think it is in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 5 that it talks about this.

Hmmm I think I get what you are saying… However, if the elect are just those who persevere until the end, there’s no way of knowing if we are the elect or not, correct? Right now, I place my faith and trust in Jesus Christ but if I leave this view, I am not elect… I suppose I just don’t get the purpose or point of this view.

If we are speaking specifically about the calvinistic view of Double Predestination, I have other objections/problems, but that is for another thread.

God Bless

 

[concretecamper]

I tell people all the time the day you think you are good enough to go to heaven, at that moment you are further away from Christ than you have ever been. I think the more we grow in Christ the more we understand how much we need Him and how short we fall. So I will say the same for this. The day I stop living out the gospel because I am “elected”, at that moment I am further away from Christ than I have ever been. This is just my opinion though.

A catholic could not have said it any better

 

[WorkingFaith]

Hmmm I think I get what you are saying… However, if the elect are just those who persevere until the end, there’s no way of knowing if we are the elect or not, correct? Right now, I place my faith and trust in Jesus Christ but if I leave this view, I am not elect… I suppose I just don’t get the purpose or point of this view.

If we are speaking specifically about the calvinistic view of Double Predestination, I have other objections/problems, but that is for another thread.

God Bless

Correct, we discussed this earlier. I guess I take the point of view because I don’t want to find myself working FOR salvation. Salvation is by Christ’s death on the cross so if I say that my actions determine salvation or not than I’m taking away from Christ’s work on the cross. I’m not too sure what double predestination is. I’ve read some of Calvin and agree with a lot of his stuff. If it has to do with God elects so we don’t have to work I think that’s dumb. I mean I understand the idea but if you don’t follow the commands of God because God elects…see how stupid that sounds haha. Its like Paul when he says I was so zealous for the Law that I broke the Law in order to keep the Law. Just doesn’t add up. Keep in mind that there are many protestants that disagree with this view, salvation is the Lord’s in my opinion and He will have mercy on whom He has mercy. I think its Romans where Paul writes “Jacob I loved but Esau I hated” " and this was before either had done good or bad. I’ve heard commentary to dispute that from those verses but the way Paul presents the verses and assumes the questions I can’t see it being explained a different way. Also I just want to let you know that I do believe that we will be held responsible for what we do and do not believe/do. I know the Bible says that God must reveal Christ to us and in the same breath that we will be held accountable for rejecting Christ, but I unfortunately cannot reconcile those two things. Again this is my opinion not sure if it is protestant teaching or not.

 

[CrossofChrist]

And Catholics are justified by baptism - not faith. Baptism is not not simply the outward sign of inner faith, but it, like all Catholic sacraments, works ex opere operato. “By the work worked”. So that still leaves me asking what need Catholics have for faith. CrossofChrist has a good grasp of Catholic salvation, and it’s clear that faith in Christ isn’t necessary.

First, thank you for the complement.

Secondly, though, faith in Christ is most certainly needed. Please don’t spread false propaganda about Catholic beliefs.

To help you out with what Catholics mean by faith when speaking about faith/works…

From the Catechism:

*1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God."78 For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith "work through charity."79

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
*

But let’s continue. Should you commit a mortal sin you are re-justified by penance - not faith. Your justification is increased by “good works through divine grace” - not faith.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation presupposes faith. Look up “perfect contrition” too. Or would you say that it is not necessary to be sorry for one’s sins?

“Temporal punishment” for sins denies Christ took the full punishment in your place, so you do not put your faith in Christ for that like Protestants do.

How does it deny that? And guess where the grace comes from to atone for temporal punishment?

Regardless, in Colossians 1:24 St. Paul says that he “fills up what is lacking” in Christ’s sacrifice by working for the good of the Church.

You have to suffer “satisfactory punishments” (Trent’s words) to satisfy the justice of God by making reparation for sin (did Jesus suffer the punishment for your sin, which made no difference to anything because you must still suffer too?), until which time - either in this world or the next (purgatory) - you are separated from God.

In Ratzinger’s own words, “This picture is as false as it is widespread.”

robertaconnor.blogspot.com/2011/03/reappraisal-of-meaning-of-redemption.html

Man was separated from God at the fall, and Jesus’ sacrifice for the sins of mankind has not restored anything for Catholics who still cannot “approach the throne of grace with confidence” (Hebrews 4:16) because that would be the sin of presumption.

Please, just drop the strawman. It’s obnoxious.

If Catholics want to debate about “faith alone” as opposed to “faith + works” then that assumes faith plays some role. I really want to know: what is the content of Catholic faith in Christ and what role does it play in justification?

Again, the Catechism:

*143 By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, “the obedience of faith”.3 *

Is the proximate object of Catholic faith Christ… or the RCC?

Christ. Which is why we have the faith of the Church he founded. For “Christ and the Church are one” (Eph. 5:32).

Make no mistake, the faith alone vs. faith + works debate speaks right to the heart of the Gospel. Either Jesus’ sacrifice is once and sufficient, or it was insufficient and needs adding to.

Glad we agree–it was once and sufficient.

Let’s avoid the fallacy of moderation in this case: it has to be one or the other, there is no middle ground. And how one answers that will be reflected in whether you subscribe to sola fide or not.

I don’t subscribe to sola fide (assuming you’re excluding hope and charity), yet I agree that Christ’s sacrifice is “once and sufficient”. Which, according to you, isn’t possible.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Correct, we discussed this earlier. I guess I take the point of view because I don’t want to find myself working FOR salvation. Salvation is by Christ’s death on the cross so if I say that my actions determine salvation or not than I’m taking away from Christ’s work on the cross. I’m not too sure what double predestination is. I’ve read some of Calvin and agree with a lot of his stuff. If it has to do with God elects so we don’t have to work I think that’s dumb. I mean I understand the idea but if you don’t follow the commands of God because God elects…see how stupid that sounds haha. Its like Paul when he says I was so zealous for the Law that I broke the Law in order to keep the Law. Just doesn’t add up. Keep in mind that there are many protestants that disagree with this view, salvation is the Lord’s in my opinion and He will have mercy on whom He has mercy. I think its Romans where Paul writes “Jacob I loved but Esau I hated” " and this was before either had done good or bad. I’ve heard commentary to dispute that from those verses but the way Paul presents the verses and assumes the questions I can’t see it being explained a different way. Also I just want to let you know that I do believe that we will be held responsible for what we do and do not believe/do. I know the Bible says that God must reveal Christ to us and in the same breath that we will be held accountable for rejecting Christ, but I unfortunately cannot reconcile those two things. Again this is my opinion not sure if it is protestant teaching or not.

I personally hate talking Calvin and predestination because it just seems so fruitless regardless of any truth there.

There are extreme Calvinist who refuse to evangelize and do missions because the logic of Calvin’s position leads to a complete throw your hands up position. The extreme Calvinist would not ever know if he could be saved no matter what as he could be “fooling himself” into thinking he is part of the elect.

Double predestination basically refers to the belief that God predestines two ways. He predestines some for salvation and some for damnation. He creates with the intention that half or more of his creation will be damned. And he funds it fitting to create for the purpose of damnation.

A bunch of hogwash, insanity. IMO

 

[JonNC]

2 questions regarding this statement -

Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell - Are the ‘final four’ a belief in the Lutheran tradition?

If so, I’m guessing there would be a varying definition of Judgement, so what does it mean in the Lutheran tradition?

Thank you.

From the joint Catholic / Lutheran document titled “The Hope of Eternal Life”;

**4. Common Affirmations

1. Catholics and Lutherans affirm together that God, who calls us into a life of communion with him, holds us accountable for our whole lives. **The grace we have been given in Christ and the Spirit is not a “talent” to bury, but should become our empowerment for praising God in freedom and contributing to the good of our fellow creatures (cf. Mt. 25:1-14). We also cannot forget that God’s gifts to us can be squandered. Each Christian must take seriously Paul’s admonition, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12, RSV).

1. The truths that God will judge our lives, that what we have done in the dark will be brought to light, and that we will know as we are known, all affirm both the seriousness of how each of us lives and God’s faithfulness to his human creatures. Both our traditions reject “security” in the face of divine judgment, while recalling that from those to whom much has been given, much will be required (cf. Lk. 12:48).

1. Both of our traditions, however, form us to live in joyful confidence and certainty of hope. We know that God’s grace is sufficient. God’s judgment is one aspect of the comprehensive establishment of God’s justice, that is, the very justice that is an essential aspect of our hope. Judgment, as our encounter with God revealing the truth about the lives we have lived, is an important and necessary moment of our entrance into the joy of eternal life and thus should be an object of our hope as well.

1. Foundational for our hope, however, is that our Judge will be none other than our Savior. We can entrust the judgment of our lives to the one who died for our trespasses and rose for our justification (cf. Rom. 4:25).

The bolding is the document’s.

The discussion of the issue of judgement begins at about paragraph 62.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Heart Foam;11352204]Oh this is a fun thread. No one defines their terms. Because I assure you what Protestants mean by “faith” and what Catholics mean by “faith” are very different.

Here’s a good article - from a Catholic - on the subject of defining the terms.

cin.org/users/james/files/faith_al.htm

Jon

 

[WorkingFaith]

I personally hate talking Calvin and predestination because it just seems so fruitless regardless of any truth there.

There are extreme Calvinist who refuse to evangelize and do missions because the logic of Calvin’s position leads to a complete throw your hands up position. The extreme Calvinist would not ever know if he could be saved no matter what as he could be “fooling himself” into thinking he is part of the elect.

Double predestination basically refers to the belief that God predestines two ways. He predestines some for salvation and some for damnation. He creates with the intention that half or more of his creation will be damned. And he funds it fitting to create for the purpose of damnation.

A bunch of hogwash, insanity. IMO

Why is there not predestination to both sides? The text that were referenced in 1st Peter 2 and Romans 9 seem to suggest that people are destined for hell. Just wanted to see both sides of the argument

 

[Jon_S_1]

Why is there not predestination to both sides? The text that were referenced in 1st Peter 2 and Romans 9 seem to suggest that people are destined for hell. Just wanted to see both sides of the argument

It’s one thing to say God knows a lot will go to hell. It’s another to say he created them with that purpose.

It eliminates free will.

Catholics believe everyone has the free will to choose God as best as they can. That Gods will is put on the hearts of all men to prepare them for the gospel. It would be the people who reject God and this truth in their hearts who damn themselves.

It could be said that hell is locked from the inside.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I say faith is most important. Without faith, works are dead. A person can go through life like a Pharisee doing all good works, but without faith in God, all his works are empty. A lot of people think that by doing good works they are buying themself a special place in heaven. If you are going to do good works, you should be careful not to draw attention to them. God loves a humble and contrite heart. In any case, without faith there is no grace, and God’s grace alone saves.

 

[WorkingFaith]

It’s one thing to say God knows a lot will go to hell. It’s another to say he created them with that purpose.

It eliminates free will.

Catholics believe everyone has the free will to choose God as best as they can. That Gods will is put on the hearts of all men to prepare them for the gospel. It would be the people who reject God and this truth in their hearts who damn themselves.

It could be said that hell is locked from the inside.

Maybe I am not reading Romans 9 in context but It seems like Paul states that God chooses to have mercy and chooses to harden the heart of whoever he pleases. Then Paul assumes that the Romans will say than why does he find fault or who can resist the will of God? Paul than says who are you to argue with God? It seems to me that Paul says God creates some for destruction so that he can make his wrath seen. Am I reading this wrong or out of context? I will agree that everyone has the freewill to choose God but verse 16 says, in a sense, that it depends on God. I will continue reading through the text though. Also any verses that would support this is not the case please let me know.

Thanks

 

[WorkingFaith]

I say faith is most important. Without faith, works are dead. A person can go through life like a Pharisee doing all good works, but without faith in God, all his works are empty. A lot of people think that by doing good works they are buying themself a special place in heaven. If you are going to do good works, you should be careful not to draw attention to them. God loves a humble and contrite heart. In any case, without faith there is no grace, and God’s grace alone saves.

This is directed to the doing good works they are buying themselves a special place in heaven comment. We will be judged for what we do on Earth and we will be rewarded. We can’t obtain heaven by our works but we will receive greater rewards in heaven based on our works, assuming there is also faith.

 

[SteveVH]

This is directed to the doing good works they are buying themselves a special place in heaven comment. We will be judged for what we do on Earth and we will be rewarded. We can’t obtain heaven by our works but we will receive greater rewards in heaven based on our works, assuming there is also faith.

A very Catholic thing to say!

 

[WorkingFaith]

A very Catholic thing to say!

I learned it from a protestant haha. If you don’t agree with that than you have to look away from 2 Corinthians 5. Pretty obvious we will be judged based on our works.