Faith vs. Works

[Cathoholic]

WorkingFaith. You stated:

Isn’t faith the gift from God?

Yes “faith” IS a gift from God. So is “hope”. So is “charity”.

This is WHY these saving graces are called the SUPERNATURAL virtues.

• Supernatural Faith
• Supernatural Hope
• Supernatural Charity (Love)

This is part of the reason WHY works are necessary too (but I’ll get into that on my next post on this thread though later).

All these virtues come from and through the work of Jesus Christ.

But the Bible never says we are justified by faith ALONE (no sola fide).

This is WHY St.Paul can say: "Of faith, hope, love, abide these three but the greatest of these is . . . ? . . . . What?

If we were justified by faith ALONE we’d expect St. Paul to say “faith”. After all, if faith ALONE leads to justification then the answer should be “faith”.

"Of faith, hope, love, abide these three but the greatest of these is . . . ? . . . . What?

“Faith?” so it fits into a man-made doctrine of justification of “faith ALONE”? NO!

The greatest of these is CHARITY. St. Paul says so (1st Corinthians chapter 13).

The very first and the very last time in Romans where St. Paul talks about “faith” he says . . . . . ? . . . . “The mere intellectual ascent of faith?” No!

St. Paul talks about the OBEDIENCE of faith!

Protestants will make a big deal about how they are called to “obedience” and that’s good.

But do you HAVE TO obey, in order to be justified?

In Protestantism the answer is “no. We are justified by faith ALONE”. And I’m saying that is un-Biblical.

See Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26. St. Paul talks about how “faith” OBEYS!

It is like “bookends” to his letter to the Romans. In other words St. Paul expects you to know “faith” the way he is defining it when you read the rest of Romans, MUST include obedience–Paul says so!

Also if St. Paul believed in justification by faith ALONE he would never have talked about being saved in “hope”.

ROMANS 8:24 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

You might say: “Well I agree with that.”

But as soon as you do, you are DISAGREEING with a hinge of the Protestant Reformation (justification by faith ALONE).

Notice also Catholics don’t latch onto this verse and state: “We are justified by hope ALONE!” (like Protestants do with verses that talk about “faith”)

Question: (Theoretically) Why is “sola hope-eeia from Romans 8:24 UNBIBLICAL?”

Answer: Because there are OTHER VERSES that teach other aspects about justification.

Right! (now go back and look at the so-called “justification by faith ALONE” verses and ask yourself the same question)

So you have three choices with Romans 8:24:

1. You can re-define “hope” and say: "Well that merely means “faith”. (That’s what one minister I talked to did).
2. You can try to deny that “hope” saves.
3. You can just affirm exactly what St. Paul says (but if you do, you no longer will be asserting “justification by faith ALONE”).

Once someone gets out of the “justification by faith ALONE” mindset, it is much easier for them to see how “works” fit into the equation of salvation (much of which has already been described on other posts here).

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’ve been trying to find scripture on this but is the grace of God given to everybody? I looked at that Titus 2:11 verse but I’m not 100% sure that its saying that God has extended grace to everyone. I’m also still stuck on bringing together the Romans 9 God choosing and us making the choice. I know that God chose His people and that we are responsible for choosing or not choosing to follow Christ…

Thanks.

In light of this conversation, I think you really need to listen to this episode of Catholic Answers Live. I was listning to the podcast this morning and was thinking “Working Faith” needs to here this! Jimmy Akin has a way of being clear and concise. It sounds like his book “The Salvation Controversy” might help you as well.

catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-9503#

The call that deals with this faith/works issue starts at the 37 min mark.

Peace!

 

[kat07]

Someone who is is Protestant said to me that “It is not possible to rightly discern God’s word when the intent is to make it fit within the framework of a belief system that, by definition, isn’t based on the bible. It doesn’t work.” I know statement is so far fetched and wrong, but I would like to respond to it, I just don’t know where to even begin.

This reply was in response to me replying about Luke 23:39-43. The Protestant asked: “What work did the thief on the cross do? None! He simply believed that Christ was who He claimed to be.” I responded to that statement by explaining how the good thief beliefs and offering his suffering for salvation was works and his faith. About how he suffered with merit, how that was an act of his work and he accepted them in the spirit of reparation (works), how the good thief admonished a sinner, the bad thief and how it was the charity & hope of his salvation in Christ that compelled the thief to ask Christ to remember him when He comes into his Kingdom.

The person further replied to my response by saying “It is very clear what the text teaches (Luke 23:39-43). Once you start applying the teachings of a belief system that isn’t based on the bible to a biblical event you get distortion and confusion. All, a lot of scripture regarding salvation (being saved from the punishment and penalty of sin) being by faith alone is found in scripture.” Now, I can only find the words Faith Alone in one place and they come after the word “NOT”. I pointed this out, but I guess ignoring that fact is just easier for some…

The person goes on to say: “Just read the new testament…read Paul’s testimony…read about the day that Peter preached the gospel and 3,000 “where added that day” in Acts chapter 2, read about the Ethiopian in Acts chapter 8, read Galatians, Romans, Hebrews. I can’t even pick out all of the citations. Over and over the bible teaches that salvation, justification, righteousness is by faith alone. Of course we have presented Ephesians 2:8-10 several times which says that we have been saved by grace, through faith, and it is not of works so that no one can boast. You can’t get any clearer than that. Read John chapter 1, Titus and Colossians (which also addresses the false teachings of asceticism). Basically…read the new testament. With almost every page there is that beautiful promise.God’s promises are for ‘whosoever will’. They are available to all…by faith…through grace. Any who aren’t sure…just cry out to Him and ask Him to show you. He is a rewarded of those who diligently seek Him. He really is the best Teacher too.”

I’ve used James 2:24, James 2:36, Matthew 5:16, Matt 5:48, Matthew 7:19-27, Matt 7:24-27, Matt 12:36-37, Matthew 25:31-46, Mark 11:12-21, Luke 8:21, Luke 10:25-28, John 5:28-29, 1 Cor 13:1-3, Gal. 5: 4-6, Galations 6:7-9, John 14:21, Romans 2:6, Romans 2:2-8, Phil 2: 12-13, James 1:22-25, Revelation 20:12-13 to show how works matter…The reply to those versus from this person were " I think some of the distinction in some of those verses is that they are addressing believers who will be judged, not in terms of whether we’ll make it to heaven because the debt is paid but on what we did for Him-all will be tested by fire and what remains is what we did by faith, really trusting and loving Him." The person also said “One thing you may want to keep in mind, Jesus message wasn’t complicated. If our explanations are longer than the scriptures on the subject themselves, we’re probably missing the whole message. Jesus spoke so even small children could understand him. It’s about whats in the heart, not the actions or words.”

“When we talk about the entire counsel of God, it’s only realized when The Lord himself opens your eyes to see it. Once that happens it really is so simple and so clear, you cant help but see the message in every single thing you read. Take the Passover for example, it was a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ coming. The only requirement was to paint the blood on your door and the spirit of death passes over. That was all they had to do. It’s the same with salvation. Paint the blood of Christ over your door, so to speak, and death will pass you over. Actual faith results in regeneration. If you have true faith, you will have fruit on your tree. Why? Because real fruit trees bear fruit because its natural. You can’t change someone by the works they do, it has to come from inside and only Christ can do that. Your faith activates your works and not the other way around.”

“This verse has been discussed, but in isaiah it tells us our righteousness is as filthy rags to God. How do you explain that if our works could do anything to save us? You will never be holy enough to enter heaven by doing. The fact is, only perfect people will be in heaven. Only perfection will get you there. It’s not better than you are bad, it’s 100% pure perfection. You will never be that. So what do you do? You have to be admitted in by being covered in the shed blood of the only one who ever lived and was perfect. Jesus Christ. His righteousness is imputed to us by faith. It’s not even your righteousness that counts, it’s Christ’s. So your works, as it pertains to salvation, are irrelevant. They do count, but for other reasons that have been discussed.”

 

[kat07]

CON’T…

“Truthfully, the only works that matter to God are the ones we do from the heart and for no benefit to ourselves. So how can works to earn salvation be pleasing to him? That only benefits ourselves and gives you reason to boast in yourself and be prideful. That’s the truth.”

“I’m not sure if this verse has been mentioned, but here’s a quandary Romans 11:6 says, “but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” That tells us it cannot be both, pretty clear. Making it by works in any amount nullifies the concept of grace and slaps Jesus in the face by downplaying his sacrifice Just to add, from another post a while back, you contended that ephesians 2:8-9 was taken out of context. That cannot be, it explains itself clearly by adding that it’s not of works and adds why, so no man can boast. It’s not of your own doing. The tense of the language is past tense, that means we have already been saved. It’s instantaneous, it is not ongoing or just the beginning or he would have made that clear but in fact he did make clear that it’s just the opposite.”

Thoughts on this and the reply I got above and also where to begin to show that this person is wrong that the RC Church is not a bible teaching church. Hope it’s okay to post this here. I know I’m kind of asking 2 questions, but thought a lot of this falls under Faith without works vs. Faith & Works.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

http://imageshack.com/a/img29/9624/7y69.jpg

 

[Cathoholic]

Heartfoam. Sorry about that. I just saw I accidentally wrote “Heatfoam”.

 

[Cathoholic]

kat07 in post 123 you stated:

Over and over the bible teaches that salvation, justification, righteousness is by faith alone.

What verse ANYWHERE in Scripture does the Bible state “justification . . . is by faith alone”?

 

[Cathoholic]

kat07

Take the Passover for example, it was a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ coming. The only requirement was to paint the blood on your door and the spirit of death passes over. That was all they had to do.

What if the Israelites did not partake of the Lamb of God?

Does death pass over them anyway? (For the answer to this question see Exodus 12:8-10)

 

[Cathoholic]

kat07,

According to your friend,

One thing you may want to keep in mind, Jesus message wasn’t complicated. If our explanations are longer than the scriptures on the subject themselves, we’re probably missing the whole message. Jesus spoke so even small children could understand him. It’s about whats in the heart, not the actions or words."

Ask him/her if it so simple, someone should tell these guys (all 38,000 denominations worth, even those that say they are “non-denominational” denominations). . . .

38,000 Christian denominations (!) are listed in the 2006 International Bulletin of Missionary Research, (Vol. 30, No. 1. See section 44). lausanneworldpulse.com/pdfs/IBMR2006.pdf

so even small children could understand him

So when our Catholic kids can see Catholic teachings in Scripture about salvation does it mean they are wrong? Are they “right” only when they agree with Protestant kids?

Just a simple message. 38,000 denominations (55,000 denominations estimated for 2025 – again see section 44 of the link above).

 

[kat07]

kat07 in post 123 you stated:

What verse ANYWHERE in Scripture does the Bible state “justification . . . is by faith alone”?

Thank you for the reply. More are welcomed. I know, no where in the bible does it state we are saved by “Faith Alone”.

The real kicker is saying that the RCC is not a belief system that is based on the bible. Catholics believe in Sacred Scripture but not Sola Scriptura. I guess I’m just looking for some history here to prove this statement “the RCC is not a belief system that is based on the bible” false. I mean the bible is read from alters on Sunday in our church…These comments are just crazy to me. This person is actually a former Catholic who converted back in 1994 to Protestant…They admit to living a life of sin before turning to God. My guess is that they never really knew to begin with the Catholic faith they were born into, although they claim they do…

 

[rinnie]

I saw someone post something about why don’t we just see what Jesus said and quoted Jesus telling people to work. So, I thought I would through something in that I actually heard at Mass with my wife. We didn’t actually discuss the scripture on this but it was one of the readings. Luke 7:36-50 go and read it cause I’m just going to paraphrase what happens. Jesus is eating with the Pharisees a sinful women comes in and is kissing his feet and pouring ointment on Him she washes His feet with her hair and tears and Jesus after a parable and some talk between the Pharisees turns to her and says “Your faith has saved you…” Works manifest faith. So we see what she did as Jesus said she is saved but what Jesus said isn’t that your works saved you it was her faith. Also to the guy who wrote the page about catholic faith and protestant faith I think that doing those works shows that a person has faith, but a person shouldn’t do works thinking that they are doing it in order to be saved. Anyway just thought I would introduce that to the conversation so people would have text of Jesus saying a person is saved by faith.

Think about what you said works manifest faith, or could it be faith is mamifested in our works.

Was it not through her works that her faith was shown. There is no faith without works. But there can be works without faith. Faith and works are not meant to be apart, anymore then God’s grace for us to obtain them.

If you look back in the bible every person I believe that was told it was your faith that saved you did some kind of work.

 

[JonNC]

kat07 in post 123 you stated:

What verse ANYWHERE in Scripture does the Bible state “justification . . . is by faith alone”?

Where does St. Paul, anywhere, provide for anything but faith regarding justification? What Paul does say about works is that saving faith must be a faith that works through love, and James reiterates this as well. Faith without works is dead. And to this Lutherans say, Amen.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

I just read what works did the thief on the cross do. The answer was none? Really?

Did the thief not confess his sin. Did he not say he belonged on the cross and deserved to pay for what he did? Is that not a confession and a work?

Did he not ask Jesus to forgive him. Remember me, when you come into your kingdom.

He did 2 works.

1. He confessed his sin.
2. He confessed his belief in Christ. If he did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, he would have no reason to have him remember him.

 

[JonNC]

=Cathoholic;11364519]kat07,

Ask him/her if it so simple, someone should tell these guys (all 38,000 denominations worth, even those that say they are “non-denominational” denominations). . . .

38,000 Christian denominations (!) are listed in the 2006 International Bulletin of Missionary Research, (Vol. 30, No. 1. See section 44). lausanneworldpulse.com/pdfs/IBMR2006.pdf

And at least 248 of them are Catholic, which indicates the foolishness of such attempts at numbering. But the point is obvious, it is not so easy as some think.
Martin Chemnitz: * This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages… *

So when our Catholic kids can see Catholic teachings in Scripture about salvation does it mean they are wrong? Are they “right” only when they agree with Protestant kids?

From this Lutheran’s perception, they are right about 85 - 90% of the time - when they agree with Lutheran kids.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I just read what works did the thief on the cross do. The answer was none? Really?

Did the thief not confess his sin. Did he not say he belonged on the cross and deserved to pay for what he did? Is that not a confession and a work?

Did he not ask Jesus to forgive him. Remember me, when you come into your kingdom.

He did 2 works.

1. He confessed his sin.
2. He confessed his belief in Christ. If he did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, he would have no reason to have him remember him.

He did three works.
Why did he confess his sin? Why did he ask Christ to remember him? Why did he admonish the other thief? He had faith. He was justified by grace through faith. The Spirit working within him led him to confess, and to admonish, and to recognize who that man was hanging next to him.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

Where does St. Paul, anywhere, provide for anything but faith regarding justification? What Paul does say about works is that saving faith must be a faith that works through love, and James reiterates this as well. Faith without works is dead. And to this Lutherans say, Amen.

Jon

Faith without works is like an engine without a car. It may run fine but it doesn’t get you anywhere.

 

[rinnie]

Why is there not predestination to both sides? The text that were referenced in 1st Peter 2 and Romans 9 seem to suggest that people are destined for hell. Just wanted to see both sides of the argument

I think the easiest way to explain why we don’t agree with it is this. And I think you will agree.

First of all God knows who will and will not enter heaven because he lets compare it to reading a book, he knows the end.

With that said he wants us all to be saved. Predestination is more like the day you were put on this earth because knows the outcome its predestinated. Do you see what I mean.

Thats not how it works. We have a hand in our own destination with free will. Like for a time being I could be on the wrong path of life, but by my free will, and the grace of God if I want it I can turn it all around.

But thats why we disagree with the predestination thing, Its like because God knows the outcome he made it happen or something.

 

[Cathoholic]

From this Lutheran’s perception, they are right about 85 - 90% of the time - when they agree with Lutheran kids.

You just made my point Jon NC about the (lack of) perspicuity of Scripture. It is not so simple.

 

[Cathoholic]

And at least 248 of them are Catholic, which indicates the foolishness of such attempts at numbering.

Even if your 248 “denominations” were true (evidence?), this when added into the 38,000 denominations (and it keeps growing every day) all serve to further make my point.

It’s not foolish at all. Calling me or my idea “foolish” does not answer the point.

The 38,000 denominations is not OK JonNC and it is an embarrassment to people who try to assert the perspicuity of Scripture (the erroneous assertion that Scripture is so self evident a child can interpret it).

(Incidentally: Show me how these 248 are submissive to their Bishops, then show me how those Bishops are submissive to the teachings and corrections of the Pope and I will show you they are not fully Catholic. If they are submissive to the order of authority (their Bishops, etc.), they will be corrected in time. If not, they are not fully Catholic.)

My point remains, the self-evident nature (perspicuity) of Scripture is highlighted as an invention when you point these things out. The more denominations you assert JonNC, the more obvious it is that the perspicuity of Scripture is a false doctrine.

And it IS a false doctrine. There are some things in the Scriptures “that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction . . .”

The difficulty of Scripture interpretation has ramifications when people try to assert Justification by faith ALONE (and so many other things) when this is never taught in Scripture either.

And notice what St. Peter does NOT teach . . . .

NOT 2nd PETER 3 (Phantom Verse) 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of faithless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

St. Peter COULD have warned about “faithless” men here. And that is and would have been true too. But he didn’t choose to warn about “faithless men” here.

St. Peter rather chose to warn about lawLESS men in the context of “salvation” and in the context of twisting St. Paul’s writings.

We have all heard it . . . .

“You are justified by faith ALONE. You should do good works, but you don’t NEED to for your justification! You don’t need to follow any LAWS to be justified.”

(I am not asserting ALL Protestants think this BTW)

Or we hear . . . .

We do good works BECAUSE of our faith.

But WHAT if you DON’T? Are you justified anyway? Do you get to go to Heaven anyway?

And in this same context, St. Peter also warns us Scripture does not teach about itself as being so simple a kid can figure it out.

And an adult can’t “figure it out” either. We NEED grace. A Grace that PROTECTS from erroneous and bogus interpretation!

Now some people for whatever reason, will say, “It’s you Catholics who have this bogus interpretation!”

But they don’t even assert the NEED for this Divine protection of interpretation. They “sail out” as Steve Ray calls it, on their own, smiling and thinking they along with their Bibles have the fullness of truth.

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And that’s the concept Luther was referring to when he asserts these guys who think they are so adept at interpreting Scripture that they have "swallowed the Holy Spirit . . . . feathers and all".

And I am saying Luther is correct on this point. But it is lamentable that Luther didn’t apply this same adage to himself.

2nd PETER 3:15-18 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

There are Sola fide proponents, or people who teach “NO LAWS are necessary for justification”, and primarily use St. Paul’s letters to pass off sola fide as “Biblical doctrine”.

Sadly they ignore St. Peter’s admonitions on the points outlined above.

 

[EIF5A]

How can faith not lead someone to at least desire to do good works?

Faith is not just “Jesus will save me”. It’s the exercise of virtue, following and imitating Christ carrying our own crosses, and loving and helping our neighbors.

The extreme form of sola fide seems to lead to the sin of presumption, which if not repented of, may lead to hell.

I suppose one can live a life outside of faith and have a last-minute conversion and still be saved by the mercy of God.