Fallacies of sola scriptura

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Quickcat, when Paul was studing the scriptures and “rightly dividing the word of truth,” he was talking about the old testament. It would be another 375 years or so before there was a new testament to “rightly divide”. Blessings Garland
Does that nullify what he said? Of course not! When he was preaching the gospel by which we are saved [the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ] he had not yet written his epistle to the Corinthians. When he was teaching that “…upon believing the gospel by which we are saved, the Holy Spirit seals us until the day of redemption of our body,” he had not yet written the epistle to the Ephesians. Etc., etc. The fact that we must “rightly divide the Word of Truth” in order to be approved unto God is still a valid doctrine.
 
QC,

I need you to answer my question. You are evading it. Would you agree with me that in order to understand the true meaning of what is written in the Bible (NT and OLD), one would have to ask the authors of the books or letters? Yes or no.
Didn’t know that I was evading “it”! I would say that in order to understand what the writers mean we must just read what they wrote. When our apostle [Paul] says, “Follow me as I follow Christ,” he means just that. When Paul writes that, “…you are complete in Him [The Lord Jesus Christ],” he means just that. When he says, “He hath forgiven you ALL treaspasses…,” he means just that. When Paul says that he is the pattern for those who follow after, he means just that. Etc., etc.
 
I was curious to see how many Bibles I could see in the hands of the folks. There was not one Bible visible in anyone’s hand. I wondered how many of those dear souls ever really STUDY the Word of God…"
They might have been going to worship, while Bible study happens at a different time or on a different day. There may also have been a standard Bible in the pews for them to study from, so that the pastor can easily say “let’s turn to this page”. Just because they didn’t have the Bible in their hands on the way into church doesn’t mean they weren’t studying it ferociously elsewhere.
 
Didn’t know that I was evading “it”! I would say that in order to understand what the writers mean we must just read what they wrote. When our apostle [Paul] says, “Follow me as I follow Christ,” he means just that. When Paul writes that, “…you are complete in Him [The Lord Jesus Christ],” he means just that. When he says, “He hath forgiven you ALL treaspasses…,” he means just that. When Paul says that he is the pattern for those who follow after, he means just that. Etc., etc.
I’m sorry, but this seems somewhat disingenuous to me.

When Jesus says:
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

… do you believe that “he means just that,” or do you try to discount it as being somehow symbolic (although He goes on to repeat it when challenged, over and over)?
 
You seem to be a well-versed and deep-rooted Catholic, unfortunately not all of us Catholics are well equipped to discuss faith matters.
I humbly thank you for the complement, but I have much to learn still. And I agree we must increase our knowledge of Scripture and Tradition, to be part of the New Evangelism that John Paul II called for.
I find that, for the most part, participating in a “non-denominational” bible study group could present many hidden dangers for lots of Catholics.
Absolutely, and some very obvious ones. The one on campus wasn’t the most difficult - that was with an attorney I interned with at the EPA. He simply came up to me one day, said “You’re a Christian, aren’t you?” I said yes. He said he was part of a Bible study and invited me to join it. It was a rough experience but I’m glad to have it under my belt.

The “Bible Study” was him (Tom), his little buddy (Brian), and me. They took my TEV from me. They took notes for me. Tom’s theology was too well-versed for me to trust it - he went from passage to passage without discussing context, what came before or after, and his interpretations were not only novel but heterodoxy. He concluded by asking when I was saved. I told him my salvation was a process, that I had accepted Jesus more and more into my life at various times (using the evangelical parlance where Catholics would describe how His Grace increases in us). Tom scoffed, said I wasn’t saved and that I needed to go home and beg for forgiveness.

I wouldn’t have taken a second Bible Study with him if he hadn’t ticked me off so much. I went there with rebuttals ready and arguments planned out - and brought the TEV again (he had given it back to me after the last study). He brought out his KJV. He butted heads loudly for about an hour over lunch. The other diners were visibly uncomfortable (we ate out). I paid my own lunch this time. We disagreed over most everything, and when Tom told me he wanted me to account to him every time I masturbated, and also wanted to ‘chaperone’ my trips to see my girlfriend, I told him were were done.

Tom called me the next day, saying “I think we made a lot of progress. I felt the Spirit move in you, and then something got in the way.” He invited me to his church, cajoled and pleaded and offered to join me at Mass afterwards if I went with him and his wife. So I relented and went.

The church was odd. Plain name - “The Church of Springfield”. No instruments, all a capella singing. The pastor went through Scripture like a hot knife through butter, verse after verse after verse. I gave up trying to reference any of it. Afterwards, Tom and his wife (who introduced herself by saying “We’re really hoping to meet her soon.” …creepy…) introduced me to the pastor. The pastor invited me to lunch. I said I wanted to go to Mass. He took on a scowl. “You’d part company with the body of Christ to lay with the whore of Bablyon?”

Many eyes on me.
The pastor looked like the kind of guy you wanted to avoid if you ran into him in the store - clothes well-kept but old, with unkempt hair and a face that had seen a lot of summers. He looked like a wild beast that had been tamed, that’s what I remember thinking. This didn’t feel safe.

“No, I’m going to where I found him in the first place. He isn’t here.” and I walked out. Tom called after me, but I left.

I was a few minutes late to Mass but it never felt so good to kneel and be humble. I crossed my arms in front of the Eucharist, wanting badly to go to Confession first. The priest, Father Chuck, listened to me without speaking and then smiled. “You know where your home is.” And then he mentioned I’d be a good priest, but that’s probably not where my heart was being called - he had met my girlfriend (now my wife) so I think he undestood that much.

Later on I found out that the Church of Springfield was part of the International Churches of Christ, a splinter group from the United Church of Christ, one that has been under fire for engaging in high-pressure tactics and exerting excessive control over new members. In particular, they’ve been under fire at college campuses. I ran into one of their missionaries during summer session in grad school. He was almost worse than Tom. He’d ask me “What do you like to do?” I’d say an activity, and his response “Oh, that’s great, I love doing that. We should get together sometime.” and then “You know, we have this Bible study, and I feel the spirit moving in you but it’s like there’s something in the way…”

So that’s my experience hanging out with a cult, as defined by their treatment of members and the control they exert. My last contact with Tom was a few months after that day in church, he listed eight sentences objecting to Catholicism. I returned 16 pages of explanation. He called shortly thereafter. “Have you really found Jesus in the Catholic Church.” “Yes,” I said, “here and here alone.” “I’m glad,” he said, and hung up.

Long answer, no I wouldn’t recommend jumping into a non-denom Bible study. And if you do go into one, expect to be a royal pain to whomever is leading it because you’ll end up questioning much of their approach. The best protestant Bible studies I’ve been to have isntead been open-ended: here’s a verse, let’s talk about what that means to us, what other verses are like it. What really throws them is if you, the Catholic, offers a closing prayer and works that verse into the prayer.
 
As a Protestant I concede the point that there are thousands of denominations. However, there are thousands of individual priests and Catholics that each espouse their own subjective opinions.
You make a good point, although it’s a question of whether this diversity among priests is a good thing. A good pastor (regardless of church) must tailor his speaking and focus to minister properly to his congregation - you’ll address the needs of new converts differently than those of mature faith, or those who are struggling differently from those who are simply in a doldrums. However, I have heard opinions in homilies that are plainly divergent from both Scripture and orthodox teaching and are espoused for worrisome reasons. No rule of guidance - Sola Scriptura or otherwise - can keep a rebellious tongue in line. There are some pastors - Catholic or otherwise - who ought to submit to the strictures of Faith or find ministerial duties elsewhere.

The purpose of having such a guideline - Sola Scriptura or otherwise - is to remove the sound footing of divergent views. An appeal to Scripture is a strong argument and puts you at least close to the heart of the Lord, but it may not be enough to convince one who holds a divergent view but who also appeals to Scripture. Nor does a Magesterium or other central authority prevent divergent views and interpretations from arising (consider the schismatics under Marek Bozek), however it does state what is and what is not acceptable in terms of Scriptural exegesis and all derivations thereof. A Magesterium is ultimately necessary for cohesion across time and unity across opinion.
Now, you can simply retort that these are outside the bounds of orthodoxy, but then this calls into question the priests in the first place who have such divergent views, who have all been called by the Holy Spirit
Not even men of the cloth are immune to wicked, errant or selfish influences - and men can be wrong even in interpreting Scripture. I had a dear friend, who has now passed on, who led a Bible study I attended while in college. He was an evangelical and had studied Scripture most of his life, even attending Bible College and spending several years on mission. He too adhered to sola scriptura but at one point declared that I could not be saved unless I had an adult baptism. Later he changed his mind, and declared that baptism was not necessary for salvation, only faith. In both instances he referred only to Scripture, yet one was plainly wrong. Thus I submit that sola scriptura is not sufficient on its own.
I’m no anti-Catholic and have been to hundreds of masses (mostly because I spend time with Catholics and have a love for them)
We love you too 🙂
While liberal protestants appear to be a moribund group, liberal Catholics seem to be the majority in parishes across the US in terms of attendance (at least in my city). However, if you go to nearly Protestant denominations you will find that the message is clear.
What do you mean by liberal? Were they hardliners for the political left, espousing progressive agendas rather than the Gospel, or were they offering unique and creative interpretations of Scripture? Remember that Catholicism is very applied in thinking and so where we discuss the fundamentals of our faith, we spend more time on how we are to live them. Catholic clergy assume everyone in attendance believes - often I think Protestant clergy assume there are some who do not. For Catholics, the challenge of the homily is to get the congregation to live their faith. For Protestants, it is foremost a call to faith whether as a revival or as one who hears and believes for the first time.
Jesus is Lord and the Bible is the word of God.
Amen!
The Bible as authority, in practice, DOES produce more fruit than allowing human authority.
How have you seen dissent dealt with?
 
So to say that the New Testament plus the Old Testament is ALL that a Christian needs sounds illogical to me.
One also must appreciate that Paul did not face off against all challenges that the past 2000 years have brought against Christianity. The doctrine of the Trinity was formally defined when it was challenged by binitarians (those who denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit). The doctrine of the hypostatic union was defined in counter to those who claimed Jesus was not divine, or not human, or never existed. The doctrine of Baptism by Blood was defined to understand the fate of those who desired baptism but were martyred before they could receive it.
 
To anyone who would seriously like to know more about why any rational person would ever hold to sola Scriptura then PM me and we can arrange a discussion over skype where we can talk and address each issue that is constantly brought up on these forums concerning sola Scriptura.

Beyond that, those who are serious can find many great books that defend sola Scriptura and address the questions that are repeatedly raised here.
I take it that you will grant me the right to believe that the Bible contains all that I need to know about my salvation and my walk with the Lord Jesus Christ. Thanks!
 
since they’re manmade, laws are not infallible or immutable (as you point out in the sentence that I blued); they are temporary (cf. for example the fact that in the U.S. in the 19th century, homosexuality was punishable by death) and relative (one state/country might outlaw X, another state/country might not).
There are two points conflated in these posts:
  1. rules of discipline and order within an institution
  2. authority to interpret Scripture
For 1), rules exist even where they are not codified. Berean, if a congregant disagrees with your pastor’s sermon, would he actually interrupt the pastor or hold his tongue until later? If he did interrupt, would ushers ask him to be quiet or leave? If a Bible Study leader taught an errant doctrine - whether he could back it up with Scripture or not - how is the church to deal with him? If your church has authority to rebuke, punish or remove an errant teacher or a congregant who behaves out of line, why does the Catholic Church not have the same authority?
Also, your analogy implies that once again, the Church could punish (persecute, imprison, torture, what have you) those who infringe against any of the Church’s many decrees.
For the record, clerical dissidence may be dealt with through excommunication - the declaration that a clergy is out of line with the Church so far that they are considered removed from the Body of Christ - but the Catholic Church operates no prisons and performs no torture. Unless you’re in Jack Chick’s world.

For 2) this is the appropriate point to make. If we approach Scripture with a sola scriptura paradigm, do we even listen to the teachings of others? If we do, why do they have authority? Who is to decide who has that authority? And if they have that authority in your church, why don’t we have that authority in the Catholic Church?
 

Quick Cat wrote:
“I was curious to see how many Bibles I could see in the hands of the folks. There was not one Bible visible in anyone’s hand. I wondered how many of those dear souls ever really STUDY the Word of God…” "​

Quick Cat, I do not recall ever reading in the bible that Early Church [catholics], brought their scriptures to the “breaking of the bread” [eucharist]. As it wasn’t a practice then, still it’s not a practice now.

During the order of the Holy mass we have: the introductory rites, the entrance, the greeting, the rite of blessing, the penitential rite, the kyrie, the gloria, the opening prayer… after that we move into the liturgy of the Word with Bible reading, gospel and the homily. Then the mass follows with the profession of faith, general intercessions… etc., etc…

Soooo, contrary to your believe, Catholics do have bible readings during our worship hour. We might not have a bible in our hands at the time but we do listen to the Word of God in each and every Holy mass. Pax et bonum. --macaronte
 
And yet, Peter already referred to Paul’s writings as “Scripture”
The Greek text uses the verb “graph-” to refer both to writing (as in Gal 1:20 “I am writing to you…”) and to Scripture (as in Luke 24:45 “to understand the Scriptures”). The only distinction that we can make comes from context. It is easier when there is direct or indirect reference to the Hebrew Scriptures (as in 1 Cor 15:4), however it could be general “writings” in 2 Pt 3:15-16 or “Scripture”. There’s not a bright line here.
(interestingly enough, not vice-versa).
Peter uses “graph-” to refer to Paul’s writings as well as to his own. If Paul’s are Scripture by Peter’s declaration, then Peter’s are Scripture by his own declaration as well.
 
I would like some responses by our non-Catholic participants in this forum.

My question is, if Christians believe that Christ died, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven because it is in the Bible and it is there because the Apostles believed, shouldn’t all Christians believe everything that the Apostles believed?

Therefore, for example, since there is much evidence the Apostles believed that Jesus meant it literally, not symbolically, when He said ‘This is my body. This is my blood’, and there is vast evidence that the Apostles taught those beliefs to others, how can any denomination that teaches a symbolic interpretation of those words claim they are ‘bible believing’ and ‘following Christ’?

JB
Did you know that the 12 apostles DID NOT know that our Lord Jesus Christ was to die, be resurrected and ascend into heaven during the time frame of the gospel accounts? In Luke 9:6 they were sent to preach the gospel. What was the content of that gospel they were to preach? Did you know that even on the day of Pentecost that Peter preached the cross as bad news in that he accused the Jews of murdering their Messiah? Did you know that our Lord Jesus Christ, in His earthly ministry, came ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And that he was speaking to Israel in John 6 and told them that it is the “Spirit that giveth life, the flesh profited nothing; THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU THEY ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE.”
 
Thanks! The writers do tell us what they mean. Seems obvious to me. Whatta ya think?
I think anyone’s own understanding is obvious to themselves.
When Paul says that we must “rightly divide the Word of Truth” in order to be “approved of God,”
How is one to rightly divide the Word of God?
Is it that Timothy is to be approved of by God, or must he show that he is approved of by God?
“Follow me as I follow Christ,” he means just that.
Conversion? Study? Mission and travel? Hardship? Martyrdom? In which way that Paul follows Christ are we, 21st century Christians, to follow Paul?
“I am the apostle to the Gentiles…,” he means just that.
Rom 11:13 - is he the only one? What would he call Barnabas, Timothy and the others he appointed to lead his churches? What of those who followed him, or was Paul the Gentiles’ only apostle for the past 2,000 years?

I would submit that Paul’s ego also creeps into these letters, speaking of intent. If you were to ask Paul how many Apostles of Jesus Christ there were, he would answer one, and his name is Paul. Of the Christian Scriptures that survived, Paul wrote most of them, yes. But the ancient Church was not built on Paul alone. Consider the size of communities that were built in Jerusalem, Alexandria, Hippo, and Spain (though Paul never went to Spain, at least not that we can tell).

Also, by your logic, what was the intent of Jesus when He said:
“And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.” (Mt 5:30)

Was He calling for dismemberment or was He speaking metaphorically?
 

sonichuiscool wrote:
“The Bible as authority, in practice, DOES produce more fruit than allowing human authority.”​

sonichuiscool, have you ever pondered that…
If not for authority, there would not have been a N.T.
–macaronte
 
What’s your understanding of John 6, QuickCat. Direct question.
Did you know that the 12 apostles DID NOT know that our Lord Jesus Christ was to die, be resurrected and ascend into heaven during the time frame of the gospel accounts?
And so…
In Luke 9:6 they were sent to preach the gospel. What was the content of that gospel they were to preach?
To proclaim the Kingdom of Heaven and to heal (Lk 9:2) based on authority given them by Jesus to cast out demons and heal disease (Lk 9:1). Given the confusion presented Herod (Lk 9:7) that it was John the Baptist, Elijah or the other prophets brought back to life, the Gospel was likely one of repentance, forgiveness and the imminent fulfillment of prophecy. This ministry - healing, repentence, forgiveness, and fulfillment of prophecy (for us, the Second Coming) - is continued in most Christian churches today.
Did you know that even on the day of Pentecost that Peter preached the cross as bad news in that he accused the Jews of murdering their Messiah?
I wouldn’t call it bad news. It was fulfillment of prophecy (Acts 2:16-21, 25-28, 31, 34-35), followed by a call to repentence and baptism (Acts 2:38). What’s your point?
Did you know that our Lord Jesus Christ, in His earthly ministry, came ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And that he was speaking to Israel in John 6 and told them that it is the “Spirit that giveth life, the flesh profited nothing; THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU THEY ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE.”
And yet we have Paul, Apostle to the gentiles, writing much of what came after. Was Paul’s mission contrary to that of Jesus, if you argue that Jesus came only to the Israelites?
 

jerryb1020 wrote:
“My question is, if Christians believe that Christ died, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven because it is in the Bible and it is there because the Apostles believed, shouldn’t all Christians believe everything that the Apostles believed?”​

jerryb, Christ gave Cephas, and his succesors through the imposition of hands, the power & the authority to bind or to loosen in heaven and in earth. Christ commisioned only his apostles, and their succesors through the imposition of hands, to teach. There are many, well intentioned protestants that keep on questioning who gives the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church the right to formulate the fundamentals of Christian practices, doctrines and dogmas. Yes, it is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church the only one commissioned [by Christ] to teach us everything needed to be known in matters of faith and morals. In essence, and to answer your question, yes, we ought to follow the apostolic teachings entrusted to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Pax et bonum. --macaronte
 
The purpose of having such a guideline - Sola Scriptura or otherwise - is to remove the sound footing of divergent views. An appeal to Scripture is a strong argument and puts you at least close to the heart of the Lord, but it may not be enough to convince one who holds a divergent view but who also appeals to Scripture. Nor does a Magesterium or other central authority prevent divergent views and interpretations from arising (consider the schismatics under Marek Bozek), however it does state what is and what is not acceptable in terms of Scriptural exegesis and all derivations thereof. A Magesterium is ultimately necessary for cohesion across time and unity across opinion.
That’s a brilliant point! Although if someone has it in his or her head that a heretical viewpoint is truth, there are greater forces at work than either the Church or the Bible. All I am saying is that practically, the Bible does seem to do a better job of suppressing divergent viewpoints.
How have you seen dissent dealt with?
Well, I’ve been on the receiving end of that dissent! My missions leader was quick to give me the boot when I told him I believe in evolution, and although I disagree wholeheartedly with his scientific view, I still believe he is a Christian. He also believes I am a Christian. That being said, priests who hold more liberal viewpoints (and I’m talking liberal here theologically, although they are liberal in politics as well, being mostly Irish working-class democrats) are still heading up their parishes around my town.
 
That’s a brilliant point! Although if someone has it in his or her head that a heretical viewpoint is truth, there are greater forces at work than either the Church or the Bible. All I am saying is that practically, the Bible does seem to do a better job of suppressing divergent viewpoints.
Really? How do you explain the disunity amongst most Christians, namely, the Protestant Churches.
 

sonichuiscool wrote:
“the Bible does seem to do a better job of suppressing divergent viewpoints.”​

Twenty thousand different denominations and hundreds popping up every year…
and you say that the bible does a better job of suppressing divergent viewpoints?
–macaronte
 
That’s a brilliant point! Although if someone has it in his or her head that a heretical viewpoint is truth, there are greater forces at work than either the Church or the Bible. All I am saying is that practically, the Bible does seem to do a better job of suppressing divergent viewpoints.
I think that might be moot - I don’t know if we can quantify it. Appeals to Scripture can silence certain heretical arguments. If one says “there’s no teaching against homosexuality” that’s a low fruit to pick.

What if I added a corollary - for Scripture to remain the final rule, humans are required to correctly interpret and enforce that rule. Human leadership is necessary for Scripture to be followed, for errors to be corrected and for heretical or errant teaching to be rebuked. Scripture does not do that on its own.

That said, an appeal to Scripture would work better in ending disputes in the evangelical churches because Scripture is held to be the highest standard as a common rule among evangelicals. Among Catholics, citing Scripture is not sufficient because we tend to rely upon reasoning that may refer to Scripture directly or may appeal instead to a principle of Scripture. Much of our ethical teaching on labor rights, for example, stems from the intrinsic dignity of work and the intrinsic dignity of humanity - topics that are not stated directly in Scripture but which we derive from Jesus being a carpenter (hence redeeming labor, which had been a curse of Adam) and from our creation in the image and likeness of the Living God.

So for an evangelical, it may work more often to point to a verse. For a Catholic, you must explain why that verse is relevant, why it matters, and why another verse doesn’t contravene or change the interpretation of it.

Lastly, I think there’s a differing notion of Scriptural proof between Catholics and evangelicals (well, Protestants in general anyway). Catholics tend to view Scripture in shades of gray - that there are things about which Scripture is clear, things about which it is subtle, and things about which it is entirely silent. Protestants often (though not always) look for positive affirmation alone - ie, if a practice is not specifically present in Scripture, it should not be allowed. The ICC (with whom I was briefly involved) did not find evidence of instruments in the Apostolic era and so all their music is a capella. Catholics see music as intrinsic in worship. look to the tradition of instrumentation in the Psalms, and welcome musical taste as befits the congregation. Hence we both appeal to Scripture, though the ICC looks for positive affirmation, and finding none considers it negative reprobation, while the Catholic Church considers this an area where Scripture is permissive but otherwise silent.
Well, I’ve been on the receiving end of that dissent! My missions leader was quick to give me the boot when I told him I believe in evolution, and although I disagree wholeheartedly with his scientific view, I still believe he is a Christian. He also believes I am a Christian.
This is curious to me. Doesn’t being a Christian have foremost to do with faith - where and in whom you place it? If someone says they believe in Christ as Lord and Savior, but I find them sleeping around, I’d consider them perhaps a bad Christian or indeed an unrepentant Christian but a Christian nonetheless.

Likewise I do not get the Evolution vs. Creation debate, whether we look solely at Scripture or otherwise. To me, they are two different questions using two different modes of inquiry to research. The former asks “How”, the latter “Why”. Science cannot tell us our identity in Christ, and the Bible - not being a textbook of biology - cannot tell us why there are flightless cormorants on islands in the Pacific. It is neither the intention of biology to describe God nor of theology to describe genetics any more than you should use either to change the oil on your 1997 Honda Civic.
That being said, priests who hold more liberal viewpoints (and I’m talking liberal here theologically, although they are liberal in politics as well, being mostly Irish working-class democrats) are still heading up their parishes around my town.
What passes for liberal in your mind, with your background distinct from mine, I might not consider the same. Specifics might be off topic in this thread, but if conversation slows here, please share.
 
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