Fallen away Catholics are still Catholic Whether they know it or not?

[whizkid43]

Well, I was raised Catholic, did the Baptism, Confession, 1st Communion, Confirmation, Marriage things in the Catholic Church. But I was never sure of my status.

Here’s my story, believe it or not… (this story is circa 1976 or thereabouts)

In the either grade I went on a Walk for Hunger sponsored by United Way, I was told by the Nuns in my school since I went on a Walk for Hunger sponsored by the United Way and the United Way sponsored abortions therefore I was party to an abortion and could never go to heaven. This whole description, with the exception of my name, was announced over the loud speaker at my parochial school.

BTW, the Nuns, originally sponsored the Walk for Hunger at my school then the day before they told us not to go, but never told us why, I went anyway for my own selfish reasons…

I assumed I was excommunicated and excommunication was permanent… You know, don’t let the door hit you in the … on the way out…

My faith was always in question but I went though with it because I didn’t know what else to do. Eventually I fell away from the Church.

I searched for spiritualism and after trying just about everything out there I found a home in a Protestant Church about 7-8 years ago. That was the first time I ever realized that God was a forgiving God. Once I realized I could follow God I was all over it, it wasn’t Catholicism but it was the Christian God. I assumed it was my only choice…

Since that time I started to research Catholicism, out of curiosity, and realized that even if the Nuns were correct and I was party to an abortion I could be forgiven in the Catholic Church… I had no clue, went to Catholic schools from 6th grade through high school, went to Catholic summer camp at ages 9-11 and I had no CLUE, that I could be forgiven from within the Catholic Church.

I CAN COME HOME!!!

I am in the process, although it is difficult. I wish I could have a big chunk of my life back, but hey, I’m looking forward…

To answer your original post, I never knew it was my decision, I thought I was kicked out… I’m ecstatic that I can remain within the Catholic faith and will embrace it with a new found vigor…

 

[mary_bobo]

Why do you think a fallen away Catholic falls away from the Church’s teachings, or become disobedient to what aspect of the Catholic Church?

…i can only speak from my own experience on this question.the answer is sin…the sacrement of reconcillation was the frist to go on my list…ie what good is saying a few prayers going to do.then incomplete confessions,due to my unwillingness to humble myself,in retrospect,then i was trapped in my vices… i continued on living this way for a while,till i was totally full of pride.in my opion that is the reason many stay away from the church is because they can’t concieve themselves as being wrong. pride:ie i know the word of God and nobody can tell me i have it wrong, because i beleive i am right so i am right.

You are right. A member of my parish who had been away from the Church some years, as was I, gave an interesting answer when asked why he left the church. He said “so that I could live as I pleased.” Sort of goes hand in hand with what you said.

 

[JRKH]

I ran across this passage in a wonderful book and it really speaks well to the idea of faith vs religion and why I would never completely submit my concsience to any church.

This is from:
“The Inner Room. - A journey into Lay Monasticism”
By Mark Plaiss

Faith is not intellectual assent to creeds or dogmas. Creeds and dogmas flow from faith. Abraham did not climb the mountain to follow Torah, but to follow God. Torah came later. Peter did not walk across water to embrace creed, but to embrace Jesus. Faith is fixed upon Jesus. Faith always precedes creed. Creeds and dogmas are important, for they point the way to Jesus, but they are not the Way. Only Jesus is “the Way”. Some believe that the sign of the true Christian is the degree to which he or she adheres to doctrinal purity. They believe Saint Paul’s great song of love in 1 Corinthians 13:13 reads, “So faith, hope, the magisterium remain, these three; but the greatest of these is the magisterium.” Such beliefs confuse the way for the Way. Faith reduced to rules, codes and rubrics is not faith, but legalism. Legalism is idolatry.

Now I would change this slightly for myself and say that faith is fixed on God. That the way of Jesus is the Way, but that the focus, and Goal is God.

There are those here who fit well into the 'faith hope and magisterium" crowd and they are making the same mistake as the scribes and pharasees.

Peace
James

 

[TOmNossor]

I was about to write that there is nothing I hate about the Catholic faith. As I thought about it, I very much dislike when Catholics attack my faith for poor reasons. I also on occasion slightly dislike when Catholics attack my faith for good reasons (BOA for example).

Considering the Catholic Church a 2nd choice and recognizing both my intellectually fallibility and the difficulties associated with human’s discerning God’s message, I have thought about my salvation if Catholicism is true.

It would seem that unless I am “invincibly ignorant” I am in some pretty serious trouble and so are virtually all fallen away Catholics who have sufficient knowledge to know they should be Catholic.
All of us unless we attend mass are in mortal sin for missing mass. If I understand correctly we must partake of the Eucharist to fulfill our Sunday obligation, but if we do not consider ourselves in communion with the Catholic Church then we cannot partake of the Eucharist worthily and to do so is a mortal sin. This is correct?
It also seems that attempting to partake of the sacrament of reconciliation would be problematic if one did not believe correctly too, but perhaps this is less concrete than the above.

I am all for prayers and I am happy that I am a baptized and confirmed Catholic. As a LDS, I even thought about the baptism I preformed on my son. As a Social Trinitarian, none of the reasons offered for LDS baptism being invalid are applicable to me (and I used the proper words and matter). Still, the ordinary magesterium has declared LDS baptism invalid. In truth, I find it hard to see how there reasons can apply to me, but perhaps they do. That being said, my son is surely invincibly ignorant as I have taught him only that the CoJCoLDS is true and he should respect folks of other faiths.
Charity, TOm

 

[bengal_fan]

I was about to write that there is nothing I hate about the Catholic faith. As I thought about it, I very much dislike when Catholics attack my faith for poor reasons. I also on occasion slightly dislike when Catholics attack my faith for good reasons (BOA for example).

Considering the Catholic Church a 2nd choice and recognizing both my intellectually fallibility and the difficulties associated with human’s discerning God’s message, I have thought about my salvation if Catholicism is true.

It would seem that unless I am “invincibly ignorant” I am in some pretty serious trouble and so are virtually all fallen away Catholics who have sufficient knowledge to know they should be Catholic.
All of us unless we attend mass are in mortal sin for missing mass. If I understand correctly we must partake of the Eucharist to fulfill our Sunday obligation, but if we do not consider ourselves in communion with the Catholic Church then we cannot partake of the Eucharist worthily and to do so is a mortal sin. This is correct?
It also seems that attempting to partake of the sacrament of reconciliation would be problematic if one did not believe correctly too, but perhaps this is less concrete than the above.

I am all for prayers and I am happy that I am a baptized and confirmed Catholic. As a LDS, I even thought about the baptism I preformed on my son. As a Social Trinitarian, none of the reasons offered for LDS baptism being invalid are applicable to me (and I used the proper words and matter). Still, the ordinary magesterium has declared LDS baptism invalid. In truth, I find it hard to see how there reasons can apply to me, but perhaps they do. That being said, my son is surely invincibly ignorant as I have taught him only that the CoJCoLDS is true and he should respect folks of other faiths.
Charity, TOm

worms anyone? i think tom just opened up a can of them.

 

[a_cermak]

I was a teen-age convert and went through RCIA and all that and stayed in the Church for around 20 years.

Around 2000, I got disturbed by a part of the Church that was trying to imply that I owed the Church my ballot–that is that my vote should be determined by the concerns of the Church vs. my concerns and what I considered important. So I stopped attending regularly.

When we started preparing for the baptism of my daughter, I realized that I couldn’t in all honesty make the promises of baptism. So we baptized her in the Episcopal church which does not tell its members how or for whom to vote, the individual parishioners may be to the left, but the priest never said a word one way or another.

However, as the Episcopalians feel compelled to argue and fight about everything all the time and as I grew increasingly sick of St. Paul and just about all his ruminations, I decided to return to my original faith.

Honestly, I thought I would miss Jesus. I thought I would miss the Sacrament, I mean, that’s why I chose the Episcopalians, because that denom still believes in the Real Presence. But, what I found was it was a sentimental longing for a certainty of my youth, and not an actual Sacramental need. I’ve found joy in dancing on Simchat Torah, and felt real sorrow for my real deeds and slights on Yom Kippur, and found a reconnect with the culture of my family, the faith of my fathers if you will.

My husband is also fallen away Catholic. In his case, it is over a specific instance of the fallout from a priestly abuse case with which he is familiar. In that case, the parents of an abuse victim were denied the Sacraments because they could not forgive the priest who had wronged their child because they were still pursuing justice (via Church channels, I don’t think a lawsuit would ever have occurred to them, this was back in the 70’s and only just became common knowledge recently during the Davenport, IA diocese hearings). Maybe he’s using that case as an excuse, but he seems pretty steamed about it.

 

[MrS]

I

All of us unless we attend mass are in mortal sin for missing mass. If I understand correctly we must partake of the Eucharist to fulfill our Sunday obligation, but if we do not consider ourselves in communion with the Catholic Church then we cannot partake of the Eucharist worthily and to do so is a mortal sin. This is correct?
It also seems that attempting to partake of the sacrament of reconciliation would be problematic if one did not believe correctly too, but perhaps this is less concrete than the above.

I am all for prayers and I am happy that I am a baptized and confirmed Catholic. As a LDS, I even thought about the baptism I preformed on my son. As a Social Trinitarian, none of the reasons offered for LDS baptism being invalid are applicable to me (and I used the proper words and matter). Still, the ordinary magesterium has declared LDS baptism invalid. In truth, I find it hard to see how there reasons can apply to me, but perhaps they do. That being said, my son is surely invincibly ignorant as I have taught him only that the CoJCoLDS is true and he should respect folks of other faiths.
Charity, TOm

The Sunday obligation is that of attending a valid Mass on every
Sunday, or the Sunday vigil Mass

A proper (words, matter) baptism is not the same as the LDS baptism.

The problem is the erroneous non-Trinitarian beliefs of the LDS. They in fact are not Christians - easy concept to understand - but are simply a cult. There is no comparison.

 

[bengal_fan]

The Sunday obligation is that of attending a valid Mass on every
Sunday, or the Sunday vigil Mass

A proper (words, matter) baptism is not the same as the LDS baptism.

The problem is the erroneous non-Trinitarian beliefs of the LDS. They in fact are not Christians - easy concept to understand - but are simply a cult. There is no comparison.

by the dictionary’s definition of cult, Christianity (all forms) would fall into it as well. let’s be careful of the names we throw around. i would agree that mormonism is not a Christian religion, but an entirely separate religion. it is not a cult in the way we think of jim jones or david koresh.

 

[a_cermak]

I would probably refer to the LDS church as perhaps non-Chalcedon or non-Nicean Christianity. It’s pretty clear that to be a Christian, one need only to believe in the person of Jesus Christ, the Arians were Christians after all.

Note the Community of Christ, which used to be known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints is Nicean compliant, probably why they are referred by LDS members as Protestant Mormons.

 

[TOmNossor]

The Sunday obligation is that of attending a valid Mass on every

Sunday, or the Sunday vigil Mass

A proper (words, matter) baptism is not the same as the LDS baptism.

The problem is the erroneous non-Trinitarian beliefs of the LDS. They in fact are not Christians - easy concept to understand - but are simply a cult. There is no comparison.
Are you suggesting that ones obligation of attending a mass that is a Sunday vigil Mass would be met if one attended but did not receive the Eucharist? I am not sure about this, but I do not actually have time to go to more than the 3+ hours of church on Sunday that I already do. When my family is out of town I often visit churches on Sunday. I have been to a Catholic mass and an SSPX mass in the past 6-8 months.

I tried to make it clear that I am aware that the issue with the LDS baptism is the non-Trinitarian nature of the LDS baptism. I, a faithful member of the CoJCoLDS, am a Social Trinitarian. I am actually Nicene orthodox in my beliefs (though I embrace a kenotic Christology and reject the dual-nature Christology of Chalcedon, which means I am not Chalcedon orthodox). That was my point. I recognize a strong sense of the oneness of God. I embrace the meaning of homoousian held by the moderates at Nicea and later used in other Ecumenical Councils(as opposed to the meaning implicit in Athanasian and Augustinian writings). My view of the Trinity is held by some Catholics and some Protestants (though a minority).

I do not think this is hugely important, but this is what I was trying to say when I suggested that since my view of the Trinity fits within Catholic orthodoxy (and certainly has not been declared insufficient for valid baptism), then a baptism preformed by me should be valid. It is orthodoxy of believe and not religious affiliation (or proper ordination) that determines the validity of baptism (Pope St. Stephen won and St. Cyprian lost), my orthodox would seem sufficient even if the Magisterium determined that many within my church are not sufficienly orthodox.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

I would probably refer to the LDS church as perhaps non-Chalcedon or non-Nicean Christianity. It’s pretty clear that to be a Christian, one need only to believe in the person of Jesus Christ, the Arians were Christians after all.

Note the Community of Christ, which used to be known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints is Nicean compliant, probably why they are referred by LDS members as Protestant Mormons.
I like non-Chalcedon or non-Nicean Christians. Though I can embrace the Nicene Creed, I find the premise of the decision to be problematic so non-Nicene Christian would work for me too.

LDS believe that one must have the proper authority to baptize so we baptize those who join. It seems to me that we cannot get to upset by those who baptize our converts.
Charity, TOm

 

[MrS]

Are you suggesting that ones obligation of attending a mass that is a Sunday vigil Mass would be met if one attended but did not receive the Eucharist? I am not sure about this, but
Charity, TOm

Catholics have the obligation to attend Holy Mass on all Sundays and Holy days of obligation.

Catholics also have the responsiblilty to receive the Real Presence, confess sins and on an annual basis - minimum!

Catholics must refrain (as St Paul the Catholic Apostle teaches) from the Eucharist if they are unworthy to receive (not in the state of grace, not decerning the Body and Blood of Christ)

I am not suggesting… hope this helps in clarifying.

 

[fbl9]

I was a teen-age convert and went through RCIA and all that and stayed in the Church for around 20 years.

Around 2000, I got disturbed by a part of the Church that was trying to imply that I owed the Church my ballot–that is that my vote should be determined by the concerns of the Church vs. my concerns and what I considered important. So I stopped attending regularly.

When we started preparing for the baptism of my daughter, I realized that I couldn’t in all honesty make the promises of baptism. So we baptized her in the Episcopal church which does not tell its members how or for whom to vote, the individual parishioners may be to the left, but the priest never said a word one way or another.

However, as the Episcopalians feel compelled to argue and fight about everything all the time and as I grew increasingly sick of St. Paul and just about all his ruminations, I decided to return to my original faith.

Honestly, I thought I would miss Jesus. I thought I would miss the Sacrament, I mean, that’s why I chose the Episcopalians, because that denom still believes in the Real Presence. But, what I found was it was a sentimental longing for a certainty of my youth, and not an actual Sacramental need. I’ve found joy in dancing on Simchat Torah, and felt real sorrow for my real deeds and slights on Yom Kippur, and found a reconnect with the culture of my family, the faith of my fathers if you will.

My husband is also fallen away Catholic. In his case, it is over a specific instance of the fallout from a priestly abuse case with which he is familiar. In that case, the parents of an abuse victim were denied the Sacraments because they could not forgive the priest who had wronged their child because they were still pursuing justice (via Church channels, I don’t think a lawsuit would ever have occurred to them, this was back in the 70’s and only just became common knowledge recently during the Davenport, IA diocese hearings). Maybe he’s using that case as an excuse, but he seems pretty steamed about it.

…hi to the last part of your post the seeking of justice for a wrong done in no way implies non forgiveness.Christ Himself said we are not to offer a sacifice if we have some thing against our brother. He even say in the Our Father “forgive us our sins as we forgive one another” so if these persons did not forgive the priest in this matter,they would be recieving the Eucharist in a state of sin.which would be a sin in its self.on the issue of voting i myself have never been told by the church how to vote…perhaps those involved in this matter were suggesting one should vote for canidates who supported pro-life,proper social justice issues,things that as christians we should be concerned about.

 

[TOmNossor]

Catholics have the obligation to attend Holy Mass on all Sundays and Holy days of obligation.

Catholics also have the responsiblilty to receive the Real Presence, confess sins and on an annual basis - minimum!

Catholics must refrain (as St Paul the Catholic Apostle teaches) from the Eucharist if they are unworthy to receive (not in the state of grace, not decerning the Body and Blood of Christ)

I am not suggesting… hope this helps in clarifying.

Thank you for spelling this out. What you said rings true by my recollection. I was in error with parts of my previous statements.
It would seem that while fallen away Catholics are still Catholics, if they miss mass, go one year without partaking of the Eucharist (or reconciliation for one year), or partake of the Eucharist while rejecting communion with the Catholic Church (part of being fallen away it would seem); they are in mortal sin. Unless this mortal sin is the product of invincible ignorance, they (me) are in grave eternal danger.
I do not offer this lightly, but the OP seemed to indicate that a tie to Catholicism was present and worth something. I am very thankful for my Catholic upbringing and I consider my tie to Catholicism worth a great deal. But towards my salvation I think it does little for me now if Catholicism is His Church.
I believe Catholic theology would suggest that I have a greater availability of sacramental Grace since I am baptized and confirmed. This could be argued to make God’s pulling me back more likely than one without these sacraments. Still in the absence of me recognizing I should be a Catholic, confessing, and returning; I think it is clear I am in mortal sin.

Isn’t being in mortal sin probably worse than being outside the VISIBLE Catholic Church?
Charity, TOm

 

[a_cermak]

…hi to the last part of your post the seeking of justice for a wrong done in no way implies non forgiveness.Christ Himself said we are not to offer a sacifice if we have some thing against our brother. He even say in the Our Father “forgive us our sins as we forgive one another” so if these persons did not forgive the priest in this matter,they would be recieving the Eucharist in a state of sin.which would be a sin in its self.on the issue of voting i myself have never been told by the church how to vote…perhaps those involved in this matter were suggesting one should vote for canidates who supported pro-life,proper social justice issues,things that as christians we should be concerned about.

Yes, but I fear it was perceived as a consequence of pursuing justice, not the actual failure to forgive especially as a different priest eventually dropped the censure, without, as far as I can know (there are only a couple of letters in the record), any change on anyone’s side.

It was a case where by listening to the complaining parents and doing something at the time, in the 70’s, the diocese of Davenport could have saved themselves a bunch of $ in the 90’s and a bunch of disrepute as well. Instead of which they demonized the parents and moved the priest around.

In this case in the record, this family was away from the sacraments for 3-4 years. In that time, one of them suffered some pretty serious health issues and probably would have received a lot of solace from the Sacraments. My husband is related to these people, and never knew the whole story until the record came to light during the lawsuits. Then a lot of unexplained incidents started to make sense for him (why did they stop going to Mass despite him being a KofC and all? Why does she to this day not have anything to do with the Church?..)

I think this issue is at the heart of his lack of faith, it is what he talks most about when the Catholic Church comes up. He’s not wiling to replace it with another faith, but wants nothing particularly to do with it either.

Consequently what Johanna sees of the Church is when I take her to Mass. I figure, with a mixed religion family it would behoove her to be familiar with both faiths.

 

[Deacon110]

To those Catholics who are no longer practicing the Catholic faith and claim no longer to be Catholic. Did you know your baptism still remains thus you still are Catholic. Could you comment about the sacraments you may have taken?

What caused you to stop practicing your Catholic faith?

I hope we might be able to clear up your misgivings of the Catholic faith.

Non Catholics are welcome to dialogue What they hate about the Catholic church.

I pray Catholics will respond with Love and understanding , to practice the virtues of our faith, given to us by the Holy Spirit.

I’ll take my shot at this Brothers and Sisters

I was born and raised Roman Catholic from the early 1960’s in Baltimore, MD. The tradition is very rich here for Roman Catholicism. The Cathedral of Mary our Queen, the Bascillica, John Carroll etc. I attended Catholic School for 8 years. Was used to seeing Cardinal Sheehan and Bishop Borders almost weekly. Was confirmed by the Cardinal. Played the part of Jesus in a passion play re-creation. Ushered at church with my Dad etc. etc. I always found it easy to believe in GOD. Don’t know how anyone can look at the human body in motion and not believe. I’m an avid runner. As I run I cannot believe how my legs, muscles, heart, lungs etc. work in conjunction with one another. Easy answer. GOD designed us plain and simple.

As far as Jesus I think I just accepted HIM because that’s what I was taught. I never fully comprehended the salvation formula if you will. GOD why don’t you just kill satan, get rid of sin and bring us home to YOU?? I know I long to be with you was always my thinking.

What started to turn me off/lose confidence was the constant change in doctrine. Grace and free will have been re-defined a few times in almost opposite directions yet the church is supposed to be infallible. Seems like a contradiction. Seemed like we always focused on praying to the saints, Mary etc. The church seemed and still seems more worried about defining doctrine for Mary than Jesus. Jesus seemed to get the minority of our time. As a young Catholic I got very confused. Sister Agnelia would say pick a Saint and pray to him. I always wondered why not pray directly to GOD.

What really turned me off was the sexual abuse of children. I understand that the church will have imposters, but let’s get them help or throw them out. Not transfer them to another parish. I personally know someone who went through this. When the story broke the Priest basically put a shotgun to his head. Turns out he had been doing this at 2 other parishes. The Priest who married me the first time turned out to be gay which honestly doesn’t bother me. But he was caught in the Rectory. He also got busted for soliciting cocaine. This is someone I grew up with. I constantly pray for him.

To me there is only one Holy Father, that is GOD HIMSELF. If the Pope represents Peter than act like it. No disrespect. Peter never let anyone bow down to him or kiss his hand. He announced himself as a servant to GOD just like you. The mass became repetative and almost robotic for me. Repeating the same thing every week with no feeling; then listening to a half-hearted 5 minute sermon. Spiritually I wasn’t being fed so I gradually fell away. My second wife is a Presbyterian. We prayed hard for GOD to lead us somewhere. If I had the time and space to tell you how HE’s been working in our lives over the past year and a half you’d understand. satan is not all knowing and only GOD could have orchestrated this. Our new non-denominational church is 85% Roman Catholic with the same issues as me. We all came from the same 4 churches in this area looking for spiritual feeding. This place GOD led us to is incredible. I finally understand Jesus. Cry everytime we sing in Worship for HIM. Nominated to be a Deacon. Basically re-dedicated my life to Jesus and GOD. I trust GOD implicitly to put me where I can grow and get closer to HIM. I believe HE’s done that.

I had high hopes for Benedict. Actually loved to hear HIM speak. Thought he would bridge the gap to all non-Roman Catholics. I absolutely hate the divide. Re-approving his doctrine last summer which basically denounced any denomination outside of the Roman Catholic church blew my mind. That’s not Peter our first great leader. Given Jesus distaste for authority and literally telling the Apostles that they will not exercise it over one another seems to be lost among the current political nature of Rome.

Sorry to be so long. I’m sure many will want to hit quote and yell at me. Always happy to share more. But won’t respond to sarcasm so don’t bother.

PEACE

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I believe that in the case of “fallen away” catholics, anyone can come home if they really want to. The Church will bend over backwards to help. (at least that has been my experience.)

However

I have issues with the hair splitting and philosophical “hat tricks” that go on.

For example, the abuse scandal. My issue with this is not the particulars of the abuses, though that is bad enough. It is with the institutional handling of it. I’m sorry, but a priest abusing a child may be a “sinful” member, but when the heirarchy fails to take appropriate, measures to protect the children, that becomes institutional and not individual period.

**I believe every practicing Catholic believes the same with you do on the above issues. What I do is to seperate man from what the Catholic Church teaches. In every organized institution there will always be scandal. Remember what Jesus said, The gates of hell will come against her, but they will not prevail.

It is a know fact that Communism, and other Heretical organizations infiltrated the Catholic Priesthood and her members. I believe God is exposing these issues and is cleaning house, for believers like you.**

Another example is the degree of Marian veneration. I apologize to anyone who will be offended, but for many this boarders on Idolotry. I don’t think it is intentional, but it certainly is promoted by the Church. And some of the Marionists on this board can be most unchristian in their defense of Our Blessed Mother

**I studied what the Catholic Church teaches on Worship, Veneration, Honor, Respect for human life, dignity for all human life. How you see an individual express their love for a saint, Is not church teaching but ones liberty,although it has been my experience for those who venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary, express a much deeper and devotional worship towards the Blessed Trinity, **

Much of the differences are: You say To-ma-to and I day to-maw-to type things.
I believe in God. He is the object of our Love, and our praise. Unity with Him is our Goal.
I believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, but even more He is our elder brother.
We have built up unnecessary walls seperating ourselves from Jesus, making Him more God than man, when that was not the intent of His mission and ministry. Jesus taught us to pray to the father, and to call God Father.
Jesus told us that we could do everything He did, and even greater things if we have faith. (sorry I’m not a chapter and verse man)
Yet does the Holy Father raise the dead? Does anyone? How many healings are affected daily by the magesterium? Not that I am trying to denegrate the Holy Father, I love him dearly as I loved his predecessor.
But If the Church possesses the “wholeness of the Holy Spirit, and God’s Truth”, and if Jesus promised his diciples will do things as great as He did, then where are all the miraculous healings? And why must the Church investigate visions for years to “determine” if they are legitimate?

Your statements are valid, we all at one time or another thought these things out. For one it is healthy for the Catholic Church members to disagree or make discussion about a topic. At the end we all Submit to our One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. As far as Miracles in the Catholic Church, Man where have you been? There has been body parts return to individuals who have lost their limb or eye, Many have been healed of Cancer, many have been saved from an untimely death, (I had to throw my miracle in their). Your darn right, The Catholic Church had better investigate to call it a sign from God. The beautiful thing is The Church allows us to have hope and faith in our miracles until She can prove otherwise, The Catholic Church has been given a divine office, to teach and protect God’'s children from error.
Sorry to ramble so. But you see, these are the kinds of issues where I differ from the, “Party Line” shall we say.

**We all have our differences James, thats what seperates us from the world, though different, we all are of the same body of Jesus Christ. Like all brothers and sisters who quarrel, at the end of the day, When Abba father calls for supper, we wash and prepare ourselves for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Peace**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yes, yes, and no, respectively.

I am on my own because there’s not much point in establishing a Church of We Can’t Know Whether God Exists – although I’ve considered for a while joining the Society of Friends, since they take unbelievers in. The nearest meeting seems to be a little hard to get ahold of, though (and I’ve been both frantically busy and lazy and should probably try again).

The Church never did wrong by me, and it’s neither the fault of the Church nor of any Catholic in particular that I left. I think some people just don’t possess the faculty of faith.

**You know alot of great saints lived the life you speak of. I believe God has something special for you, if I know my Lord, He never gives up on his Children, especially the ones he calls, and to me you are being called. The best time to talk to God is the time we lose faith in him, Tell him how you feel, I did at one time, God revealed himself to me in a way , it shook my hands, feet and body that I have never experienced, and it was 110 degrees out when it happened. So I ask you, be frantically busy, and lazy, but try God again, I know he is waiting for you. Have a serious get down talk with him. He is listening, and watch what happens in the morning. **
I will be praying for you,

 

[c659smith]

Deacon,
Sounds like you had a good Catholic upbringing fairly close to what I had,

Now I can understand and have felt the same way for some years and that was because with that I did not understand my faith. I was never taught it.

I had the Baltimore Catechism, was an altar boy, and went on retreats as a kid quite often.

I can see where you feel betrayed by the priest scandal but you know it is all societies of life. I will not bother giving you the # of the Protestant faiths and most still are not admitting to their deceptions.

the Catholic Church unlike many others has dealt with this, has corrected it, and is moving on. The Catholic Church took it’s lumps and while some of the accusations were true many were not but saw the big bucks.

Your local Lutheran Church is not going to reap you millions.

Many a good priest is no longer practicing because of false accusations.

I was trying to make sense at alot of it that a grown man would never report abuses made to him to the police. Especially when he was no longer in that environment where the alleged abuses took place.

If it was true and know some were what a weak man that he would allow others to be hurt by his silence.

As far as teachings we were taught to memorize not discuss, read the bible, and sit at a Mass and someone tell us what was truly happening.

We were never taught the history of the Church, how, and why the subsequent protest-ism came about.

King Henry the 8th, Martin Luther, etc… We were never taught how the Catholic Church built western civilization or where we all get our bible from and why the protestant removed some of the books in the bible.

Grace though has not changed , the doctrine of the Church remains the same, and the bible still states Peter being the head of the Church and shows Apostolic succession, The bible still states what sins you forgive are forgiven and those you retain are retained. (confession)

I believe what brought me back to the Catholic Church was a visit by the Holy Spirit and gave me a thirst for knowledge 5 years ago that still today does not end.

I have read most of the church fathers and books such as C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton,

I just cannot see how one can stay away from receiving our lord Body,Blood,Soul, and Divinity within us.

We use Saints at times as helping us by additional prayers (glory to God ) for our faults and mis-givings. We do mot give a Saint Adoration only God gets that.

The Rosary recites the bible

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Does the Roman catholic church have a process of deleting non-practicing Catholics and exerts from the rolls?

Or is this not possible, since theoretically they are still Catholics?

What is God’s is God’s. The Catholic Church cannot divorce what God has joined together.

Now there has been some Catholics that have been excommunicated from communion with the Church, because of an unrepentative act, or heretical teaching. All they need to do, communicate their different views and hold to the teachings of Jesus Christ.They are recieved back into communion and many have.

As far as deleting a non practicing Catholic, I have never heard of such a thing in my short life.