False Devotion to Mary

[Memaw]

You missed my point. Our faith depends primarily on the Passion, death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Christ. If Christ didn’t rise from the dead, our faith is in vain.

This is what you said:

Originally Posted by James248 View Post
Her “Fiat” would be MEANINGLESS had Jesus not died and risen from death.

How did I miss your point? Mary came first, She is HIS Mother, had HE not been born, there would be no Christ. No Fiat, no Jesus. We haven’t the slightest idea where we would be today if she didn’t say “Yes”. Please tell me what was your point!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[James248]

This is what you said:

Originally Posted by James248 View Post
Her “Fiat” would be MEANINGLESS had Jesus not died and risen from death.

How did I miss your point? Mary came first, She is HIS Mother, had HE not been born, there would be no Christ. No Fiat, no Jesus. We haven’t the slightest idea where we would be today if she didn’t say “Yes”. Please tell me what was your point!! God Bless, Memaw

Christ is the center of our faith. Mary is subordinate. My whole point.

 

[USMC_Convert]

Christ is the center of our faith. Mary is subordinate. A point you missed.

To both sides of this debate, I think we are getting off track here, to James and those who are arguing his basic points, yes you are absolutely correct, Mary is subordinate, Jesus is the reason for the whole of Christianity. He is God!

To those who are arguing the Marian points including myself, yes, there would be nothing if the Blessed Mother had not said yes, yet her main virtue was that of humility. Remember that, we do a disservice to her if we don’t promote her with her own virtues.

We are all falling into the trap of pitting Jesus and Mary against each other. Can one exist without the other? This is Satan’s doing! He is ruining a good discussion and learning point we have going here. Don’t fall for this, keep it as Jesus and Mary together!

Blessed be Jesus and Mary! Never Blessed be Jesus or Mary…

Who does the Church with the Holy Spirit bless first? “Blessed art thou amongst women and Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus” Who is most deserving of praise and honor, of course Jesus!

 

[Jeanne_S]

To both sides of this debate, I think we are getting off track here, to James and those who are arguing his basic points, yes you are absolutely correct, Mary is subordinate, Jesus is the reason for the whole of Christianity. He is God!

To those who are arguing the Marian points including myself, yes, there would be nothing if the Blessed Mother had not said yes, yet her main virtue was that of humility. Remember that, we do a disservice to her if we don’t promote her with her own virtues.

We are all falling into the trap of pitting Jesus and Mary against each other. Can one exist without the other? This is Satan’s doing! He is ruining a good discussion and learning point we have going here. Don’t fall for this, keep it as Jesus and Mary together!

Blessed be Jesus and Mary! Never Blessed be Jesus or Mary…

Who does the Church with the Holy Spirit bless first? “Blessed art thou amongst women and Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus” Who is most deserving of praise and honor, of course Jesus!

Beautiful!

 

[Techno2000]

Christ is the center of our faith. Mary is subordinate. My whole point.

In the Catholic faith we have more that just Turkey for Thanksgiving.

 

[friardchips]

What do you know of attacking?

I have a long memory of those who use player tactics.

Consider any dialogue between us, over.

---

No one who is arguing on the side of Marian Devotion is seeking to separate Jesus from Mary. With Mary is love for Jesus.

They are inseparable.

Any counter to this, is simply not Catholic.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

http://www.wga.hu/art/m/michelan/1sculptu/pieta/1pieta1.jpg

You wrote:

But, she died too, with him… standing there at the foot of the cross.

Once again, Mary did not die at the foot of the cross.

Stating things that are at variance with historical reality is simply absurd.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Please stop using status to make your arguments for you. It is tiresome.

The Church has hierarchies.

Religious life also has it.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Really ? Another putdown

When you have this experience, I counsel that you use the triangle in the upper right hand corner of the offending post to report the matter to the moderators so that they may intervene.

 

[James248]

In the Catholic faith we have more that just Turkey for Thanksgiving.

Thanksgiving and Turkey are irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[pianistclare]

These threads are so embarrassing. I imagine the non-Catholics get a good laugh out of the ridiculous assertions. “Mary died at the foot of the cross.” No. No she didn’t.

I can see why there are so few priests here. They are treated with the utmost scorn for their years of experience, seminary training and other theological expertise.
It’s just shocking.

All in the name of trying to love Our Lady as we ought.
She would never behave like some on this thread. Nor would she condone this line of
discourse. She was humble and pointed in all instances to her Divine Son.

She must be saddened by this.
Why does Our Lady seem a threatening figure? This, I will never know.

On the last day, I don’t want Jesus to look at me and ask why I thought His mother deserved no consideration, no respect, no love.

God is not like that. He wants us to love others.
Most especially the one, lone example of sinlessness that we have.

It takes nothing away from Him.

People who have no Marian devotion have just as much chance of getting to heaven, but they miss out on a priceless advocate.

God bless our priests. They certainly take a beating here.

 

[USMC_Convert]

The Church has hierarchies.

Religious life also has it.

Don Ruggero, I have a question for you. Well it is for everyone here, but being you are a priest and I believe you said you were a professor of Marian theology I am more interested in your opinion about it.

Anyway, so I was meditating on the Joyful mysteries today and I came to the Presentation of Jesus and as I was meditating on these mysteries I had a thought. The Blessed Mother presented Jesus to God the Father, so is it not good that we ask her to present our requests, prayers, sacrifices and so on to God? Am I on to something here or off base? Thanks…

 

[Techno2000]

You wrote:

Once again, Mary did not die at the foot of the cross.

Stating things that are at variance with historical reality is simply absurd.

You didnt think I meant that literally, did you ?

 

[oldgraymare2]

These threads are so embarrassing. I imagine the non-Catholics get a good laugh out of the ridiculous assertions. “Mary died at the foot of the cross.” No. No she didn’t.

I can see why there are so few priests here. They are treated with the utmost scorn for their years of experience, seminary training and other theological expertise.
It’s just shocking.

All in the name of trying to love Our Lady as we ought.
She would never behave like some on this thread. Nor would she condone this line of
discourse. She was humble and pointed in all instances to her Divine Son.

She must be saddened by this.
Why does Our Lady seem a threatening figure? This, I will never know.

On the last day, I don’t want Jesus to look at me and ask why I thought His mother deserved no consideration, no respect, no love.

God is not like that. He wants us to love others.
Most especially the one, lone example of sinlessness that we have.

It takes nothing away from Him.

People who have no Marian devotion have just as much chance of getting to heaven, but they miss out on a priceless advocate.

God bless our priests. They certainly take a beating here.

Hi Clare,

I read Techno’s posts differently, here in this thread.

I did not take them literally, but figuratively, instead.

I have noticed that sometimes people will post here using idioms or figurative speech, and instead, members will interpret the posts literally, with the other forms of speech being difficult for them to perhaps notice, or understand, especially if English is not their first language–generally speaking.

He was using idioms in his posts, so when I read the one that you quoted above, I took it figuratively speaking.

The only way that we have of knowing what he meant, is if he comes back to tell us what he meant.

I personally try and give someone the benefit of the doubt when they post, and look at something positively.

 

[oldgraymare2]

Hi Techno,

You and I just posted at the same time.

I just posted about figurative and literal forms of speech.

I knew that you meant it, figuratively speaking.

I was mentioning how that I noticed that some people have difficulty with interpreting things literally on the forum, rather than figuratively.

I enjoy reading your posts.

God bless you!

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Anyway, so I was meditating on the Joyful mysteries today and I came to the Presentation of Jesus and as I was meditating on these mysteries I had a thought. The Blessed Mother presented Jesus to God the Father, so is it not good that we ask her to present our requests, prayers, sacrifices and so on to God? Am I on to something here or off base? Thanks…

Of course it is good! But that is not the same as everyone being required to do so to be a Good Catholic.

Again you are falling into the false dichotomy, that people who do not practice Marian devotion think “Marian devotion is wrong”, I really can’t think of anyone in this topic who has stated that. Not even James248. Maybe some of his comments could be interpreted that way but he has not actually stated “Marian devotion is wrong”.

I have a question for you, too. What changed your mind from eschewing Marian devotion to being such an active proponent of it. Somehow I doubt it was because people already devoted to Mary nagged you into it.

 

[Techno2000]

Hi Clare,

I read Techno’s posts differently, here in this thread.

I did not take them literally, but figuratively, instead.

I have noticed that sometimes people will post here using idioms or figurative speech, and instead, members will interpret the posts literally, with the other forms of speech being difficult for them to perhaps notice, or understand, especially if English is not their first language–generally speaking.

He was using idioms in his posts, so when I read the one that you quoted above, I took it figuratively speaking.

The only way that we have of knowing what he meant, is if he comes back to tell us what he meant.

I personally try and give someone the benefit of the doubt when they post, and look at something positively.

Right, did a real metal sword go through the Virgin Mary’s Heart …No.

 

[USMC_Convert]

Of course it is good! But that is not the same as everyone being required to do so to be a Good Catholic.

Again you are falling into the false dichotomy, that people who do not practice Marian devotion think “Marian devotion is wrong”, I really can’t think of anyone in this topic who has stated that. Not even James248. Maybe some of his comments could be interpreted that way but he has not actually stated “Marian devotion is wrong”.

I have a question for you, too. What changed your mind from eschewing Marian devotion to being such an active proponent of it. Somehow I doubt it was because people already devoted to Mary nagged you into it.

I am not falling into anything, I had a serious question for Don Ruggero so I asked.

Yes many here have eluded to “Marian devotion is wrong” but never came out and said such words.

As to what changed my mind that is between me, my confessor and God.

As far as I can tell nobody is nagging anyone, go through all three threads and you will see that it is not the Marian devotees on the attack here. We are defending the devotion. At least that’s my perspective.

 

[Techno2000]

Somehow I doubt it was because people already devoted to Mary nagged you into it.

We do this because the approved apparitions of the Virgin Mary asks us to do this.

miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/vatican.html

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Yes many here have eluded to “Marian devotion is wrong” but never came out and said such words.

I personally don’t think that’s what’s going on. Some posters have questioned the idea that Marian devotion is required, and I think there is an idea that some who practice Marian devotion do so in a prideful manner. But I have not seen anyone state that the concept of Marian devotion is “wrong”, as in, “no one should do it”.

As to what changed my mind that is between me, my confessor and God.

As far as I can tell nobody is nagging anyone, go through all three threads and you will see that it is not the Marian devotees on the attack here. We are defending the devotion. At least that’s my perspective.

I think you – and I am not referring to any other posters, but just you – are trying to have a good faith discussion. This I appreciate. Yet you seem to vacillate between “agreeing to disagree” and feeling compelled to “defend Mary”. This makes it difficult to figure out what to say to you.