False Prophets the most used comeback!

[Servant19]

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Pulpit Commentary

Are all apostles? etc. It is God’s providence which “has appointed divers orders in his Church,” and has “ordained and constituted the services of angels and of men in a wonderful order.”

So the Apostles are first among those in the Church as St Paul states “placed in the Church FIRST of all Apostles” Such as Paul whom He (Jesus Christ) quickened by the Holy Spirit.

But notice he states “placed in THE CHURCH”. so we know these Apostles/Saints are in the Church, we don’t know for “certain” of all their virtues or those outside the Church or that saints may exist outside in ignorance of the Good News. Al;so on the above list as we can’t dismiss Judas and Mohammed or no?

These souls have another qualifier, they are in the Church, the Church is the mystical body of Christ, it is salvation itself in the real presence of Jesus Christ and quickens souls through the sacraments, through the Holy Spirit.

So then while we can’t dismiss the reality saints can exist outside the Church, we would have to admit the preponderance of evidence suggests that Saints of Christ’s Church should first be looked for in Christ’s Church?

Now Christs Church the one I was quoting above about public Revelation, this exists and was instituted by Jesus Christ and established through the Apostles and with Apostolic Succession.

Just like you guys following Bab built a Church and have followers in it. You have apostolic succession so to speak. Point being what you have, already existed in Christs Church and since a decade of the Cross and Biblically with epistles being then penned at that point, then these same people canonized the Bible, so souls could further be saved through Christs redemption and at the mass in the Church. Still the same Church apostles successors and so forth through the sequence of events to today.

St Paul tells the Christians at Corinth and Rome that they “are sanctified in Jesus Christ, called to be saints” “In HIs Church being Corinth and Rome”

Just Saying, there’s a noticeable issue with Apostles/Saints/Prophets and false prophets then also as cross referenced by above as in “Church”

I don’t understand what you’re saying here, dear friend Gary, in the context of my kind and humble request in the post just above.

Can you elaborate please?

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[Servant19]

I would humbly suggest you start your reading here:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Báb

The Bab was the Herald to Baha’u’llah and revealed the true station of Baha’u’llah

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[GaryTaylor]

False Prophets and how to know them along with virtues is to view them from the Church established, this exists and was instituted by Jesus Christ and established through the Apostles and with Apostolic Succession NT Matthew then Paul…Bible etc, which belongs to the tradition Paul belonged to.

To view this from another paradigm(Bab) or anywhere outside the Church is but an opinion of the another paradigm of how those within Christianity discern Saints and false prophets and understand tradition/scripture. You generally like to look at the Bab first and then make conclusions on Baha’u’llah based off that. In Christianity the Church doesn’t recognize this authority to interpret scripture in particular the Catholic Church.

That’s a different paradigm you speak of, which assumes Bab to be correct. My point is the Christian paradigm there is no public revelation, and has been so continuously, and tested many times through history. Thus tradition/scripture remain the same. Follow how they discern false prophets?

Babs fruits are but what 200 years old? Does that qualify him historically or even time wise to be affirmed as “valid” fruits?

 

[GaryTaylor]

“For the moment, let’s consider just one aspect of one of these Tablets. In about 1869, Bahá’u’lláh sent a Tablet to Pope Pius IX. In this Tablet, He proclaims Himself to be the long-awaited return of Christ in the glory of the Father, and summons the Pope to present himself before the throne of his Lord. He also speaks to Christianity in general, and beyond them to the followers of all religions. He warns the Pope and the people of the world not to make the same mistake made by the Pharisees when Jesus appeared. He equates the Báb with John the Baptist and Himself with the Father foretold by Isaiah and the Comforter prophesied by Jesus”

The public revelation never been up for debate. Did the Pope respond?

 

[Servant19]

False Prophets and how to know them along with virtues is to view them from the Church established, this exists and was instituted by Jesus Christ and established through the Apostles and with Apostolic Succession NT Matthew then Paul…Bible etc, which belongs to the tradition Paul belonged to.

Dear friend, did not Peter Himself discern the truth about Jesus from the new perspective and paradigm of Jesus?

I asked you this question before.

Let us be just in our judgement. If Jesus was to be judged purely off the verities and Scriptures of Judaism, there would have been little to no Jewish converts. Saul was Saul because of His loyalty to the Traditions of Judaism. Saul became Paul because of the Truth that Jesus presented IN HIMSELF (a new paradigm)

To view this from another paradigm(Bab) or anywhere outside the Church is but an opinion of the another paradigm of how those within Christianity discern Saints and false prophets and understand tradition/scripture. You generally like to look at the Bab first and then make conclusions on Baha’u’llah based off that. In Christianity the Church doesn’t recognize this authority to interpret scripture in particular the Catholic Church.

Do what Paul did, do what Peter did and view the Bab from His own paradigm.

What was it that gave Peter the certitude of declaring Jesus the Messiah?

You will notice it is the same things that made Tahirih declare the Bab as the Qaim, the Return of John the Baptist (without ever having met Him)

That’s a different paradigm you speak of, which assumes Bab to be correct. My point is the Christian paradigm there is no public revelation, and has been so continuously, and tested many times through history. Thus tradition/scripture remain the same. Follow how they discern false prophets?

I’m not assuming that the Bab is correct. I have (as is encouraged in our Faith) tested again and again the “Spirit” found within the Bab to assure me and give me certitude that it is unequivocally “God from God”

Babs fruits are but what 200 years old? Does that qualify him historically or even time wise to be affirmed as “valid” fruits?

What has a timeline got to do with it dear friend ?
Was Jesus to be rejected in the year 200AD because it did not “qualify him to be affirmed as showing forth valid fruits”?

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[Servant19]

By ignoring it, the Pope went directly against the admonitions of John where he exhorted us all to “test the Spirits”.

The Pope, by ignoring it did not test the Spirit of Baha’u’llah and immediately gave validity to the coming of Baha’u’llah, namely, the unbiblical directions that the Papacy was taking Catholicism.

(please don’t ask me to give you examples of this. I am not here to slam or attack Christianity (in any of its forms or denominations) so any requests for how the Pope was becoming unbiblical will be ignored by me, the above example should be sufficient)

Baha’u’llah has stripped away the entirety of man-made doctrine based on man-made interpretations and Traditions to unite the world in Truth and Spirit.

It is every single souls duty to test the Spirit that He has abundantly showered upon the whole of mankind and judge its validity. A comprehensive testing is the bare minimum duty…

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[Servant19]

It is also notable that while Baha’is start threads wishing to explore generic concepts, it is the Catholics that generally bring an attack against Baha’u’llah and His Divinity first.

Clarifying misunderstandings and misconceptions is a critical agenda for Baha’is worldwide.

Unfortunately a lot of prejudices are rife…

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[Servant19]

I agree

 

[GaryTaylor]

By ignoring it, the Pope went directly against the admonitions of John where he exhorted us all to “test the Spirits”.

The Pope, by ignoring it did not test the Spirit of Baha’u’llah and immediately gave validity to the coming of Baha’u’llah, namely, the unbiblical directions that the Papacy was taking Catholicism.

(please don’t ask me to give you examples of this. I am not here to slam or attack Christianity (in any of its forms or denominations) so any requests for how the Pope was becoming unbiblical will be ignored by me, the above example should be sufficient)

It is every single souls duty to test the Spirit that He has abundantly showered upon the whole of mankind and judge its validity. A comprehensive testing is the bare minimum duty…

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Your assuming the Pope didn’t test the spirit or isn’t presently testing the spirit. I think you take to much liberty with his silence if indeed that’s what occurred.

He may wait 500 years in prudence of spiritual matters.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_revelation

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Can you give an example of a thoughtless use of the term false prophet? Or is that you just don’t like your prophet being called false when you cannot retaliate and say any of the actual prophets are false?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Dear friend, did not Peter Himself discern the truth about Jesus from the new perspective and paradigm of Jesus? I asked you this question before…

Of course

What does it have to do with two separate paradigms? If the Pope for example stated with Bab the jury is out, I would agree that’s the truth and we would all be agreement that’s Gods truth? Yes or no?

Let us be just in our judgement. If Jesus was to be judged purely off the verities and Scriptures of Judaism, there would have been little to no Jewish converts…

And you mention this as to suggest what? How I should view Bab? :But he wrote the Pope who I follow.

Saul was Saul because of His loyalty to the Traditions of Judaism. Saul became Paul because of the Truth that Jesus presented IN HIMSELF (a new paradigm)…

Your have to elaborate clearly on the “IN HIMSELF” part, sounds like that tough language area. Its a red flag to me as its foreign to my Christian ears.

Do what Paul did, do what Peter did )…

I’m stretched out attempting to. I think finally I’m really starting to get it with Paul and Peter. I’m feeling it more now that I use to. Sacraments of their Church is a “must”. Its a tough one wrapping the mind around the RP?

and view the Bab from His own paradigm.

I speed read through it. That said I think you guys are polite and somewhat balanced. But no I believe nothing about Bab. Not feeling it, it could be me. I’m reading a story not feeling the movement of the Wind, the Holy Spirit rushing over me. That’s why I recommend the Sacraments of the Church. Jaw dropping miracle. That’s why when new 200 yo revelations appear I check with the Pope.

What was it that gave Peter the certitude of declaring Jesus the Messiah?.

The same who gave him the Keys to the Kingdom and which He built His Church upon.

I’m glad you agree here. But what we don’t agree on, at least I, is that the Bab is anything divine whatsoever. Like I said, you guys are cool, but I don’t see anything divine. I could be Christian brainwashed but I believe God is Jesus Christ. The Living God, no other, no more to come, who came back for the lost sheep. And that I will live eternally divinized with Him, Jesus Christ in His Kingdom. Shocking as it may be He instituted a Church, thus the Pope.

You will notice it is the same things that made Tahirih declare the Bab as the Qaim, the Return of John the Baptist (without ever having met Him).

I notice its mentioned here and there, but no I don’t see that either. “Return of John the Baptist (without ever having met Him)”

Come-on that’s a bit of a stretch? That’s up there with ancient aliens now. How, show me how you see that. Lets go through it word for word.

I’m not assuming that the Bab is correct. I have (as is encouraged in our Faith) tested again and again the “Spirit” found within the Bab to assure me and give me certitude that it is unequivocally “God from God”

I’m glad you feel this way, but we have to test that spirit and maybe think about it and be silent as the Pope is silent?

What has a timeline got to do with it dear friend ?
Was Jesus to be rejected in the year 200AD because it did not “qualify him to be affirmed as showing forth valid fruits”?.

Christ is risen. Jesus is God. Bab is under review by the Pope and Christs Bishops.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Yes yes, I agree.

Accusing Abraham of fornication is blasphemy

In today’s world, with the spiritual knowledge and insights we have gained from God, you may have a point, but for 4000 years ago, that’s disrespectful towards the Father of monotheism…and to make it a point to exclude yourself as superior to other religions is missing the spirit behind Gods revelations

How is it blasphemy to point out that Abraham was a sinner like anybody else?

And can you make that last part more clear?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

How is it blasphemy to point out that Abraham was a sinner like anybody else?

They are viewed as perfect representations of God, they are not merely human like us.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

They are viewed as perfect representations of God, they are not merely human like us.

19?
Is that right?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Bahai distinguishes between manifestations and prophets it seems. Prophets like David I have not see a bahai object to. If I point to the Torah and show Moses sinning and that sin being the reason he himself cannot enter into the Holy land they will deny Moses sinning nontheless, interpreting the text non literally.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Bahai distinguishes between manifestations and prophets it seems. Prophets like David I have not see a bahai object to. If I point to the Torah and show Moses sinning and that sin being the reason he himself cannot enter into the Holy land they will deny Moses sinning nontheless, interpreting the text non literally.

Then Mohammed, even from the Baha’l perspective it seems suspect. How come Mohammed is allowed a different set of guidelines and measuring stick?

 

[tonyfish58]

This is not true, but only a perception.

Baha’i s believe in all the PROPHETS. The point is if we can show that One of these WRONGLY accused “False Prophets” does not WARRENT the denial of the people, then we show that All are true.

So keep it uncomplicated IMHO

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

“For the moment, let’s consider just one aspect of one of these Tablets. In about 1869, Bahá’u’lláh sent a Tablet to Pope Pius IX. In this Tablet, He proclaims Himself to be the long-awaited return of Christ in the glory of the Father, and summons the Pope to present himself before the throne of his Lord. He also speaks to Christianity in general, and beyond them to the followers of all religions. He warns the Pope and the people of the world not to make the same mistake made by the Pharisees when Jesus appeared. He equates the Báb with John the Baptist and Himself with the Father foretold by Isaiah and the Comforter prophesied by Jesus”

The public revelation never been up for debate. Did the Pope respond?

What happened to the Pope and the Church after this time? Have a look at what befell the Pope who was at the height of His Influence, look at what started happening to the Church!

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

If one ignores Gods Word, there is a result. If you wish to study look at the result of the Rejection.

Have a look at the result of all the leaders of the time that rejected!

The only Favorable response was the Queen of England, to which Baha’u’llah replied and said because of you Good works your reign will endure! To which it has. Where are all the other leaders who were at the height of their Power?

This is evidence that what is False will vanish, what is Truth will endure. Think carefully about this and do just push it aside!

Regards Tony

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

It is also notable that while Baha’is start threads wishing to explore generic concepts, it is the Catholics that generally bring an attack against Baha’u’llah and His Divinity first.

Clarifying misunderstandings and misconceptions is a critical agenda for Baha’is worldwide.

Unfortunately a lot of prejudices are rife…

That my dear friend Servant is quite obvious

May we all be able to look at God with eyes of Love and Unity

Regards Tony