Family convicted in Canada 'honor murders'

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More likely this is a “tribal” thing, couched in some culture or ethinic rather than religion because the transgression upsets the cultural norm and the only way to avenge it is by shedding blood.

Though Islam is a tribal religion, people first identity with a tribe or ethnic. And they bring some of that tribalism practices with them when they emigrate.

Kitchen death or bride burning or dowry death is a related form of a dishonor – it can be insufficient dowry or infidelity – by the woman’s family for her dowry or by the woman (India long outlawed dowries – in 1997 5,000 women in India alone were killed by this practice, usually for insufficient dowry). Yet, it’s practiced in Peru, India and Pakistan which all have different religions and different cultures. The woman is burned to death in a cooking accident is the usual story.

This happens wherever women are viewed as property.
 
Kouyate42 said:
Problem is that many Islamic people suffer from poor education in their own faith, and so often rely on someone telling them what they should believe. This is especially true in Afghanistan where the literacy rate was poor. And so it is easy for a person to interpret something wrongly and the OP is the result.
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I understand and agree with your post Kouyate, but to a certain point.

This family, these people did not come to Canada yesterday,… they have been living in that country since the early 80’s. So for me, your post does not work completely.
 
jakasaki said:
I understand and agree with your post Kouyate, but to a certain point.

This family, these people did not come to Canada yesterday,… they have been living in that country since the early 80’s. So for me, your post does not work completely.
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What happens is that the woman see that moving to the west they can own property, go to school, choose their marriage partner, or remain single, get a profession, own a business. But, when the man does not move into 21st Century western society, he views the women as being dishonorable, shameful and disobedient.

What tells me is that he did not move away from his mental tribalism is the fact that he had two families, and practiced polygamy. Honor codes are not sanctioned by the Koran, but by tribalism.
 
jakasaki said:
I understand and agree with your post Kouyate, but to a certain point.

This family, these people did not come to Canada yesterday,… they have been living in that country since the early 80’s. So for me, your post does not work completely.
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This idea of honor is a generational thing which goes back a LONG way. Chances are that these ideas were all the father and all the preceeding generations of his ancestors had known, and such an attitude cannot easily be eradicated from someone’s mind.
 
DaddyGirl said:
Somewhere in the bible, it calls for stoning and killing those who have done wrong honor-wise, yes? As in an adulterer, for example?
I guess at some point, the Judeo-Christians decided to cross that one off the to-do list, and thank God for that.

This is a tragedy, what has happened here (and in Kingston, Ontario! It’s a quiet, sleepy little college town!). But this is what happens when people get stuck in an extreme, religious righteousness linked to a sentence written thousands of years ago.

I hope all people of all religions learn from this tragedy, so that we can all be more open-minded and think and act out of love and logic…rather than be mindless rule-followers and act out of fear or prejudice or narcisisstic, so-called “honor”.
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First, stoning was the punishment mandated for the crime of adultery (as well as some others). They did not have jails and prisons like we do, so the penalties tended to be restitution (x4), or killing.

The difference is that before a stoning, a trial of some sort was held, there had to be two witnesses, and this was adjudicated. It was not a question of some people within the family deciding to kill other family members willy-nilly, for whatever they deemed to be dishonorable behavior, with whatever evidence may have struck the person as pertinent.

Adultery is a huge problem within a marriage; it is at least as bad as treason for which we still have the death penalty.
 
jakasaki said:
There is nothing in the islamic scripture, AKA their koran which calls or defines “honor killings”.

It is a muslim Middle Eastern “tribal” & “cultural” problem that has existed for decades and for over a thousand of years.

You cannot and you will not change their minds.
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I have to smile. I grew up among Sicilians, many recent immigrants or second generation and the “honor” mentality was alive & well (though not killings). Any girl who “dressed like a whore” could expect a beating at home.
So were those folks being tribal/cultural? Good Catholics teaching modesty (keep in mind that corporal punishment was still considered acceptable)?

And up until a few decades ago in most of the US killing a cheating wife was not considered murder (less so a cheating husband). Depending on the jurisdiction and circumstances a DA might think himself lucky to get a manslaughter conviction.

Btw, I’ve always had a soft spot for Kingston. For some reason when we first got cable it included CKWS. The CBC news seemed more “real” because the sets were plainer and the readers didn’t try to be “personalities”. They also carried a lot of BBC program(me)s.
 
didymus said:
And up until a few decades ago in most of the US killing a cheating wife was not considered murder (less so a cheating husband). Depending on the jurisdiction and circumstances a DA might think himself lucky to get a manslaughter conviction.
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This is not completely true. If *in the heat of passion, *someone killed a spouse caught in flagrante delicto, then the killer would usually be let off. If there is a period of time between the discovery and the killing, then the length of that time can become the legal turning point: a man catches his wife, pulls the gun out of the holster and shoots them both is clearly “in the heat of passion.” A man who sees that and kills her a couple of days later is no longer “in the heat of passion,” and will be prosecuted (generally).
 
didymus said:
I have to smile. I grew up among Sicilians, many recent immigrants or second generation and the “honor” mentality was alive & well (though not killings). Any girl who “dressed like a whore” could expect a beating at home.
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My wife is Sicilian-American, her grandfather was a Mafioso, but he wasn’t a wife or daughter beater. He did shoot some people, though. 😉
 
St_Francis said:
This is not completely true. If *in the heat of passion, *someone killed a spouse caught in flagrante delicto, then the killer would usually be let off. If there is a period of time between the discovery and the killing, then the length of that time can become the legal turning point: a man catches his wife, pulls the gun out of the holster and shoots them both is clearly “in the heat of passion.” A man who sees that and kills her a couple of days later is no longer “in the heat of passion,” and will be prosecuted (generally).
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“Heat of passion” doesn’t fly in most states, if any, any more. In Arkansas, there is no such thing. Premeditation is presumed even if the murder is committed seconds after the discovery. And, juries here don’t buy into that 19th century B.S.
 
didymus said:
I have to smile. I grew up among Sicilians, many recent immigrants or second generation and the “honor” mentality was alive & well (though not killings). Any girl who “dressed like a whore” could expect a beating at home.
So were those folks being tribal/cultural? Good Catholics teaching modesty (keep in mind that corporal punishment was still considered acceptable)?

And up until a few decades ago in most of the US killing a cheating wife was not considered murder (less so a cheating husband). Depending on the jurisdiction and circumstances a DA might think himself lucky to get a manslaughter conviction.

Btw, I’ve always had a soft spot for Kingston. For some reason when we first got cable it included CKWS. The CBC news seemed more “real” because the sets were plainer and the readers didn’t try to be “personalities”. They also carried a lot of BBC program(me)s.
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In Sicily there was a code called “Delitto d’Onore”.

t didn’t involve killing your daughter, it involved killing the guy who dishonored your daughter. And it wasn’t a “get out of jail free” card. It was similar to a manslaughter conviction as opposed to a murder 1 conviction.

Great film that satires this idea is “Sedotta e Abbandonata”

There is a scene where the father of Agnese (who had been seduced and abbandoned by Peppino) goes to meet with a lawyer, after Peppino refuses to marry her. He wants Peppino killed, and tries to figure out who could do it according to the Delitto d’Onore code. He couldn’t because too much time lapsed from when he found out about his daughter’s seduction. Then lawyer and father agree it should be the older brother of Agnese, and he should only need to serve 4-5 years.

(sorry for being too off topic…)
 
mark_a said:
Where is the outcry from Muslim leadership? Or Muslim publications? It should be easy to find these things online.
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Does the Pope issue a statement every time a murderer turns out to be a Catholic?
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Does the Pope issue a statement every time a murderer turns out to be a Catholic?
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Everyone knows that any murder committed in the name of Catholicism isn’t really anything to do with Catholicism, and so such open statements from prominent Catholic clergy aren’t necessary.

Unfortunately the same expectations aren’t extended to Islam, despite the majority of the Muslims in the world hating any sort of violence committed in the name of their religion. It’s about expectations, and people’s view of Islam is so skewed.
 
Luna_Lovecraft said:
Why should Muslims come out against murder? What sane adult alive doesn’t know murder is wrong?

Do we sit around waiting for bishops to release official condemnations every time a Catholic husband kills his wife?

So why the different standard for Muslims?

Again, the soft bigotry of low expectations.

Luna
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Honor killings are part of most predominantly Muslim cultures as much as abortion is a part of American culture. Some of the posts in this thread bear this out.
 
didymus said:
I have to smile. I grew up among Sicilians, many recent immigrants or second generation and the “honor” mentality was alive & well (though not killings). Any girl who “dressed like a whore” could expect a beating at home.
So were those folks being tribal/cultural? Good Catholics teaching modesty (keep in mind that corporal punishment was still considered acceptable)?
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Don’t you think something more civil and sane as a gesture of judicial corrective punishment could diplomatically be enforced rather than beating any girl who dressed like a whore?

And how about men who dressed like whore though it might sound odd in expression.
What physical punishment would be to harsh for men who act like johns seeking prostitutes?
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
“Heat of passion” doesn’t fly in most states, if any, any more. In Arkansas, there is no such thing. Premeditation is presumed even if the murder is committed seconds after the discovery. And, juries here don’t buy into that 19th century B.S.
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Read the thread. They were discussing old laws.
 
We could spend the next few pages focusing on Islam here with NO benefit here or we could discuss the aspect of how the daughters went to the school to inform them about how bad their home life was and how the school apparently did nothing.

What information is out there about THAT?
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
“Heat of passion” doesn’t fly in most states, if any, any more. In Arkansas, there is no such thing. Premeditation is presumed even if the murder is committed seconds after the discovery. And, juries here don’t buy into that 19th century B.S.
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Yes, in the post I quoted, the poster said “up until a few decades ago;” I replied in the past tense so didn’t think I needed to repeat that.
 
DaddyGirl said:
Yep. As I was saying, old-fashioned mentality. We don’t stone people anymore. And we can’t go ahead and kill people because we think they are not following the “honorable” rules.
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You seem to have completely missed my point.
 
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