Family convicted in Canada 'honor murders'

[qui_est_ce]

Not these 4 women. They sure as heck were not honored by their father, mother & brother.

Surely you jest with the above quote. Where were the “human rights” of these 4 pour souls…??

Do the women in the Middle east have the right to any education and go to any school they want.

Do the women in the Middle East have the right own their own house & property without a husband.

And your last few words about “rights which were not granted in the West until recently” … this is something I always here from muslims.

These 4 women were not viewed as precious jewels worthy of honor. They were killed by 3 of their family members.

Yeah right.

What’s with the SAW part. Please don’t explain it to because I already know what it means. Only muslims put the SAW & PBUH next to their self proclaimed prophet.

Have you read the hadith where he punched Aisha in the chest & cause her “much pain”.

… snip

You must have missed the part where the meaning is lost in the translation.

That’s what I heard

 

[Kouyate42]

You must have missed the part where the meaning is lost in the translation.

That’s what I heard

No-one is claiming that…

 

[qui_est_ce]

Just because the rights of three particular women were denied does not reflect on all of Islam.

Are you denying the quotes from the Qu’ran which were posted below?

You might find the educational record of the Middle East to be a lot better than you perhaps think. Some of the oldest universities in the world are in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, including the world’s oldest WOMEN’S university which is in Kabul.
Also, in Saudi Arabia in particular, around half of university graduates are female. The workforce in SA is seeing a yearly increase in female workers who have CHOSEN to work.

But they are not allowed to drive or vote.

It’s a wonderful thing called the truth.

Just because a Muslim does something doesn’t necessarily mean the actual actions are condoned by Islam and the Qur’an.

 

[jakasaki]

BTW, I’m not Muslim. But I do have a great deal of love and admiration for the Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

Since you have this great deal of love & admiration for the self proclaimed prophet of islam, well then all you have to do is say the shahada and … puff… you’re a muslim.

 

[Kouyate42]

Are you denying the quotes from the Qu’ran which were posted below?

I could post a lot more than three quotes from the Qur’an (if I had mine to hand) which prove the honor and value of women, including the one where any accusation of sexual impropriety by a woman has be backed up with FOUR witnesses and not the usual two, all of whom have to swear an oath of truth and who are barred from ever being a witness in a case if they are found to have lied.

But they are not allowed to drive or vote.

As far as I’m aware, the ban on driving only exists in Saudi Arabia. And judging from what I can tell, there are many Saudi women who are happy to have it this way and see it as a unique feature of the culture of Saudi Arabia.

 

[jakasaki]

QUOTE=Kouyate42;8899292

Just because the rights of three particular women were denied does not reflect on all of Islam.

Not 3 women it was 4.

The three Shafia sisters – Zainab, 19, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13 – were found dead inside a car that plunged into the Rideau Canal in Kingston on June 30, 2009. Shafia’s first wife, 50-year-old Rona Amir Mohammad, also died.

Have you read the hadith where Aisha got lost, only for a member of the Prophet’s group to return, put her on his camel and ride back to the group. The enemies of the Muslim group made lies against A’isha and made her out to be unchaste. The Prophet (saw) saw fit to both protect A’isha from the lies made against her but called the accusers to produce evidence, and then punished them as they could not do so.

Aisha said the prophet, her husband, punched her in the chest and caused her much pain. I’m not interested in the lost bracelet hadith where she fell behind the caravan and a man rescued her.

 

[Kouyate42]

Not 3 women it was 4.

The three Shafia sisters – Zainab, 19, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13 – were found dead inside a car that plunged into the Rideau Canal in Kingston on June 30, 2009. Shafia’s first wife, 50-year-old Rona Amir Mohammad, also died.

Whoops, typing too fast.

Aisha said the prophet, her husband, punched her in the chest and caused her much pain. I’m not interested in the lost bracelet hadith where she fell behind the caravan and a man rescued her.

Cite the hadith’s source so I can read it for myself.

Also, what is your point with this hadith?

 

[qui_est_ce]

I could post a lot more than three quotes from the Qur’an (if I had mine to hand) which prove the honor and value of women, including the one where any accusation of sexual impropriety by a woman has be backed up with FOUR witnesses and not the usual two, all of whom have to swear an oath of truth and who are barred from ever being a witness in a case if they are found to have lied.

So which ones are right? Are Muslims free to pick and chose which verses/Surahs they are allowed to follow?

As far as I’m aware, the ban on driving only exists in Saudi Arabia. And judging from what I can tell, there are many Saudi women who are happy to have it this way and see it as a unique feature of the culture of Saudi Arabia.

Then why are they protesting by driving around the squares honking their horns? Why are they protesting because it costs so much to hire a driver?

They are NOT happy about not being able to vote! Would You?

From NPR

May 4, 2011

It was pretty sobering to hear a group of Saudi women I met recently tell me they feel they have the least freedom or fewest rights of any women in the world.

They have no right to vote in the rare, countrywide elections Saudi officials hold or to drive on the kingdom’s roads. They have little say in matters of marriage and divorce. They can’t travel unless their male guardian — who could even be their child — gives them a letter granting them permission to do so.

Never mind the mandatory black robe and veil that they must put on whenever they leave the house.

So when the government recently decided to renege on a promise to grant them the vote in municipal elections this fall, the women told me they’d had enough.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Afghanistan

Millions Of Afghan Women Will Be Denied Vote Due To Female Staff Shortage

 

[Kouyate42]

I can’t be bothered with this. What goes on in Saudi Arabia is irrelevant. These girls died at the hands of their parents, and their deaths are anything but Islamic, given I managed to cite several Islamic articles which condemn honor killings some time ago in the thread.

 

[jakasaki]

Whoops, typing too fast.

Cite the hadith’s source so I can read it for myself.

Also, what is your point with this hadith?

Hit hit his young bride.

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was ‘A’isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O ‘A’isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi’ (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

Shahih Muslim - Book #004, Hadith #2127

Search Truth in Quran, Hadith, Prayer Times, Dictionary, Islamic Names

 

[LemonAndLime]

So which ones are right? Are Muslims free to pick and chose which verses/Surahs they are allowed to follow?

Yes. Remember, there is no governing body that tells Muslims how to read their Holy Book and how to interpret it.
qui est ce:

Then why are they protesting by driving around the squares honking their horns? Why are they protesting because it costs so much to hire a driver?

They are NOT happy about not being able to vote! Would You?

From NPR

Not all women are protesting it. Many in fact are happy with it.

In Saudi culture, women have their integrity and a special life that is separate from men. As a Saudi woman, I demand to have a guardian. My work requires me to go to different regions of Saudi Arabia, and during my business trips I always bring my husband or my brother. They ask nothing in return—they only want to be with me. The image in the West is that we are dominated by men, but they always forget the aspect of love. People who aren’t familiar with Shariah often have the wrong idea. If you want stability and safety in your life, if you want a husband who takes care of you, you won’t find it except in Islam.

In 2008, some Saudi women launched a petition “My Guardian Knows What’s Best for Me," which gathered over 5,000 signatures. The petition defended the status quo and requested punishment for activists demanding “equality between men and women, [and] mingling between men and women in mixed environments”.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Male_guardian

 

[Kouyate42]

Finally, some sense.

Although I’d disagree you can simply cherry pick the Qur’an…there’s explicit warnings of Allah’s (SWT) punishment of anyone who does this.

 

[mark_a]

Muhammad (SAW) himself treated his wives with kindness,

Wives.

 

[Kouyate42]

Wives.

I cannot see what is so funny here…the Qur’an permits multiple wives where they are all treated equally (emphasis mine).

 

[SpeakInSilence]

How about Catholic or other Christian women and children murdered by husbands. Were they honored the way the Bible would have them honored?

I’m beginning to take some of the people on this site not very seriously. You are completely skirting the issues, and are just raising new questions.

You have completely ignored the verses people have given you talking about how wives should be treated, and chose to look away.

Give me a case where a Catholic husband has killed his wife for religious reasons, and I’m sure I can give you an apology for it.

Here let me give you a list of apologies from different Catholic authorities.

truechristian.org/a_papal_apology/index.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20100319_church-ireland_en.html

newadvent.org/cathen/05008b.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

Where are the Islamic leaders over the ages calling for peaceful resolution?

 

[SpeakInSilence]

Finally, some sense.

Although I’d disagree you can simply cherry pick the Qur’an…there’s explicit warnings of Allah’s (SWT) punishment of anyone who does this.

If you can’t pick and choose on the issues why then have you chosen to ignore the verses I gave that women are like domesticated animals? Obviously you are falling into sin according to Islam.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I’m beginning to take some of the people on this site not very seriously. You are completely skirting the issues, and are just raising new questions.

You have completely ignored the verses people have given you talking about how wives should be treated, and chose to look away.

Give me a case where a Catholic husband has killed his wife for religious reasons, and I’m sure I can give you an apology for it.

Here let me give you a list of apologies from different Catholic authorities.

truechristian.org/a_papal_apology/index.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20100319_church-ireland_en.html

newadvent.org/cathen/05008b.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

Where are the Islamic leaders over the ages calling for peaceful resolution?

I can easily answer the last question.

Google it yourself. You’ll find an answer if you looked for one.

 

[Kouyate42]

If you can’t pick and choose on the issues why then have you chosen to ignore the verses I gave that women are like domesticated animals? Obviously you are falling into sin according to Islam.

I’m fully aware of the verses you quote and there is perfectly good scholarly discussion of their meanings, and there is not one hint of myself and other women being thought of as ‘domesticated animals’.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I have to smile. I grew up among Sicilians, many recent immigrants or second generation and the “honor” mentality was alive & well (though not killings). Any girl who “dressed like a whore” could expect a beating at home.
So were those folks being tribal/cultural? Good Catholics teaching modesty (keep in mind that corporal punishment was still considered acceptable)?

And up until a few decades ago in most of the US killing a cheating wife was not considered murder (less so a cheating husband). Depending on the jurisdiction and circumstances a DA might think himself lucky to get a manslaughter conviction.

Btw, I’ve always had a soft spot for Kingston. For some reason when we first got cable it included CKWS. The CBC news seemed more “real” because the sets were plainer and the readers didn’t try to be “personalities”. They also carried a lot of BBC program(me)s.

That is* not *something to be proud of