Family convicted in Canada 'honor murders'

[AngryAtheist8]

This is not completely true. If *in the heat of passion, *someone killed a spouse caught in flagrante delicto, then the killer would usually be let off. If there is a period of time between the discovery and the killing, then the length of that time can become the legal turning point: a man catches his wife, pulls the gun out of the holster and shoots them both is clearly “in the heat of passion.” A man who sees that and kills her a couple of days later is no longer “in the heat of passion,” and will be prosecuted (generally).

From what I have heard this kind of shameful double standard is even more severe (at least until recent decades) in Catholic countries such as Italy and Spain.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Everyone knows that any murder committed in the name of Catholicism isn’t really anything to do with Catholicism, and so such open statements from prominent Catholic clergy aren’t necessary.

Unfortunately the same expectations aren’t extended to Islam, despite the majority of the Muslims in the world hating any sort of violence committed in the name of their religion. It’s about expectations, and people’s view of Islam is so skewed.

How so?

The example of Islamic groups such as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, The Islamic Republic of Iran, the Taliban, and many others doesn’t exactly justify much faith in the goodness of Islam.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I’m female, and I have little problem with Islam. Women are HONORED in Islam, and are given appropriate rights of education, property ownership, human rights, the right to work and earn their own living and other rights which were not granted in the West until recently.

Women in Islam are viewed as precious jewels worthy of honor, respect and love. Muhammad (SAW) himself treated his wives with kindness, and said to his sahabah (companions) ‘the best of you is best to your wives’. There are many stories of him giving A’isha and his wives gifts, taking them to shows and entertainments, defending them from malice etc.

There is also a hadith in which Muhammad (SAW) was asked ‘‘who after Allah should I respect and honor?’’. His reply was ‘your mother’. He was then asked ‘‘and who should be after that’’ and he replied again ‘your mother, and then your father’’.

I can likely cite more examples of the respect accorded to Muslim women.

Which are contradicted by the example of how Muslims actually interpret the Koran and treat their women in places where Muslims are the dominant majority (such as Iran, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia)

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I could post a lot more than three quotes from the Qur’an (if I had mine to hand) which prove the honor and value of women, including the one where any accusation of sexual impropriety by a woman has be backed up with FOUR witnesses and not the usual two, all of whom have to swear an oath of truth and who are barred from ever being a witness in a case if they are found to have lied.

** As far as I’m aware, the ban on driving only exists in Saudi Arabia. And judging from what I can tell, there are many Saudi women who are happy to have it this way and see it as a unique feature of the culture of Saudi Arabia**.

And what (if anything) is this opinion based on?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I can’t be bothered with this. What goes on in Saudi Arabia is irrelevant. These girls died at the hands of their parents, and their deaths are anything but Islamic, given I managed to cite several Islamic articles which condemn honor killings some time ago in the thread.

That’s obviously not true.
If you couldn’t be bothered you wouldn’t be posting.

A better question is:
why do you feel compelled to defend the sort of religion that literally says a woman’s value is half that of a man’s?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Yes. Remember, there is no governing body that tells Muslims how to read their Holy Book and how to interpret it.

Not all women are protesting it. Many in fact are happy with it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Male_guardian

Wikipedia isn’t a good source, moreover a mere 5,000 signatures don’t mean much coming from a country where men have the power of life and death over their wives and daughters.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Finally, some sense.

Although I’d disagree you can simply cherry pick the Qur’an…there’s explicit warnings of Allah’s (SWT) punishment of anyone who does this.

If by sense you mean someone agreeing with you sure:shrug:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I’m fully aware of the verses you quote and there is perfectly good scholarly discussion of their meanings, and there is not one hint of myself and other women being thought of as ‘domesticated animals’.

In other words you refuse to really discuss the issue because it contradicts your viewpoint.

 

[SpeakInSilence]

I’m fully aware of the verses you quote and there is perfectly good scholarly discussion of their meanings, and there is not one hint of myself and other women being thought of as ‘domesticated animals’.

So you did completely ignore those writings from those hadith I gave you.

Alright here it is again.

Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754 - “Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves.”

 

[AngryAtheist8]

To put all of this in context, here’s a quote from a recent news article:
Most honor killings occur in Islamic countries

Source:
ibtimes.com/articles/289576/20120130/honor-killings-mohamman-shafia-islam.htm

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Give me a case where a Catholic husband has killed his wife for religious reasons, and I’m sure I can give you an apology for it.

I don’t believe that Moslem men kill their wives for religious reasons, either. Where in the Qu’ran does it say, “Kill thy wife”?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Yes. Remember, there is no governing body that tells Muslims how to read their Holy Book and how to interpret it.

Actually, there is. It depends on the country/authority, and whether you are Wahhabi, Sunni, Shiite, Taliban, or some other sect. The Qu’ran contradicts itself. Some Muslims accept certain hadiths, and reject other.

Not all women are protesting it. Many in fact are happy with it.

Well, if you think women should be happy not to vote, not to able to drive, go out in public alone, then more power to you.

Read The Kite Runner or A Thousand Splendid Suns and tell me how wonderful life is under Islamist rule.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Well, if you think women should be happy not to vote, not to able to drive, go out in public alone, then more power to you.

It’s not what anyone on this Forum thinks, it’s what the women in some of those countries think. And, there are women there who accept those prohibitions willingly.

Read The Kite Runner or A Thousand Splendid Suns and tell me how wonderful life is under Islamist rule.

You are using the worst examples to make your point. Not all Moslem nations are like that. BTW, The Kite Runner is one of my favorite movies.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t believe that Moslem men kill their wives for religious reasons, either. Where in the Qu’ran does it say, “Kill thy wife”?

Are you kidding?

dhushara.com/book/sakina/stoningetc/stoning.htm

THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC CONDEMNS A 13 YEAR OLD GIRL TO STONING
By Safa Haeri Iran Press Service Posted Saturday, October 16, 2004 According to Iranian and foreign press, Zhila Izadi, a 13 year old girl from the north-western city of Marivan had been condemned to death by stoning after being found that she had been pregnant from her 15 years-old brother. The independent Iranian online newspaper “Peyke Iran” (www.peykeiran.com) that had first revealed the news last week reported on Saturday 16 October 2004 that the girl has given birth two weeks ago in prison, but the young girl had been separated from her new born baby after the birth. The father, a devout Muslim, informed the authorities about the “disgrace” the young girl had caused the family. While Zhila as been sentenced to stoning, her brother, jailed in Tehran, is to receive only 150 lashes, in accordance with Islamic laws.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Are you kidding?

Not at all. The Qu’ran nowhere puts an obligation on husbands to kill their wives. Though they be Moslems, there are fathers who love their wives and children and vice versa and who show charity to non-Moslems.

When my wife some years ago underwent extensive surgery for her cancer (she’s 4b and it’s almost a miracle that she’s still alive this long), two of the fathers of the Moslem children she was teaching, who were setting out on the Haj came to her to tell her that they would be praying for her when they got to Mecca. Not exactly the sort who would feel that they were obligated to kill their wives.

 

[qui_est_ce]

It’s not what anyone on this Forum thinks, it’s what the women in some of those countries think. And, there are women there who accept those prohibitions willingly.

. You know, American slaves had it pretty good, materially on many plantations. They lived in covered shelters and had enough food to eat. They were better off than most pioneers heading out west in covered wagons. They knew freedom, because they lived in a free world. Common sense tells you that once people know freedom, they yearn for it. There was mass starvation on the St. Louis levees when freed slaves came up the Mississippi and couldn’t find any work in St. Louis.

You are using the worst examples to make your point. Not all Moslem nations are like that.

I did not say ALL,.

BTW, The Kite Runner is one of my favorite movies.

I never saw the movie, but both books were extremely depressing.

There is no central authority in Islam. It’s whichever government you live under that determines the interpretation of the Quran.

My manicurist is Vietnamese. She sends her children to Viet Nam for spouses. The son-in-law came to the States 9 years ago. He said he was brainwashed into thinking the US and France were out to invade them and steal everything from them. He said Vietnam has “fake democracy” (his words).

I believe the same thing happens in many Muslim countries, as well as in North Korea.

Not saying we should forcefully go in, but common sense tells you people want freedom.

I know you mission here is to present the other side, but in this case, I sorely agree with you. As a Christian, and as a human being.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Not at all. The Qu’ran nowhere puts an obligation on husbands to kill their wives. Though they be Moslems, there are fathers who love their wives and children and vice versa and who show charity to non-Moslems.

My cousin was married to an Egyptian in the '60’s. They were both educated pharmacists. He promised her he would never have multiple wives. They had two children together. Then he married. He said it was okay because lying to a non-Muslim is permitted by the Qu’ran. She somehow left the Egypt with her kids, saying she was visiting family and was able to escape.

Islam, as it is practiced in most parts of the world is an evil, evil, force.

When my wife some years ago underwent extensive surgery for her cancer (she’s 4b and it’s almost a miracle that she’s still alive this long), two of the fathers of the Moslem children she was teaching, who were setting out on the Haj came to her to tell her that they would be praying for her when they got to Mecca. Not exactly the sort who would feel that they were obligated to kill their wives.

Good for them.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Islam, as it is practiced in most parts of the world is an evil, evil, force.

Good for them.

Well, which is it, Christine? Evil, evil force or a religion that has many caring adherents who do good?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

. I never saw the movie, but both books were extremely depressing.

A friend of mine who read the book refused to accompany me to see the movie for that very reason.

To think that when the Russians came to Afghanistan and emancipated women and provided real schooling for them, the United States chose to support the Mujahadeen, the predecessors of the Taliban.

 

[SpeakInSilence]

A friend of mine who read the book refused to accompany me to see the movie for that very reason.

To think that when the Russians came to Afghanistan and emancipated women and provided real schooling for them, the United States chose to support the Mujahadeen, the predecessors of the Taliban.

Yeah, those noble soviets… Do you honestly believe the Soviets had righteous reasoning in invading Afghanistan? What the U.S. shouldn’t have done is got involved in the first place.