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AClaire11
Guest
That’s a good point.
Family member pregnant with in vitro baby... is it moral to celebrate?
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PaulfromIowa
Guest
It is a sad part of modern life that people feel the need to over share intimate information. (Does the use of the word “partner” mean unmarried partner?)
You can be happy over a new baby and wish the parents the best without approving of the parents’ past sins.
You can be happy over a new baby and wish the parents the best without approving of the parents’ past sins.
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PatrickKennedy
Guest
I’m not really sure I needed help. I didn’t say that no one should ‘dare’ mention it just that I was astounded that the thought of spoiling a moment for someone with any opinion no matter how sincerely held is anathema to me.
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MaryT777
Guest
You and me both. I am also astounded at the thought of spoiling a moment where a new life is to be celebrated.
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Moneyball
Guest
Thanks for the replies. My cousin and I are not super close, but our families are, if that makes any sense. I have no idea whether she or even my family knows that I do not support it… they (or atleast my family) don’t seem aware that it’s against Church teaching.
I want to be especially sensitive because last summer my wife and I decided not to attend a same-sex ceremony involving my cousin’s sister (also my cousin). That created a lot of friction, not only with my cousins but also my parents (who attend mass weekly btw).
Anyway, I’m fully aware that every human being is created in the image of God, we will no doubt love and welcome that child regardless of how he or she was conceived. My only concern right now is how to go about enjoying the new life without seeming perfectly ok with the way they did things. For example, as some of you have mentioned, if I say “congratulations, I’m so happy for you both!”, that seems to imply approval of the sin. On the other hand, it would be completely inappropriate for me to hug my cousin and then say something like “so, why didn’t you decide to adopt instead?”.
They obviously mean no malice, but the combination of placing the life giving act in the hands of a third party, the use of a stranger’s sperm, and to do so outside of marriage make it very difficult for me to just smile and go along with the ride.
I want to be especially sensitive because last summer my wife and I decided not to attend a same-sex ceremony involving my cousin’s sister (also my cousin). That created a lot of friction, not only with my cousins but also my parents (who attend mass weekly btw).
Anyway, I’m fully aware that every human being is created in the image of God, we will no doubt love and welcome that child regardless of how he or she was conceived. My only concern right now is how to go about enjoying the new life without seeming perfectly ok with the way they did things. For example, as some of you have mentioned, if I say “congratulations, I’m so happy for you both!”, that seems to imply approval of the sin. On the other hand, it would be completely inappropriate for me to hug my cousin and then say something like “so, why didn’t you decide to adopt instead?”.
They obviously mean no malice, but the combination of placing the life giving act in the hands of a third party, the use of a stranger’s sperm, and to do so outside of marriage make it very difficult for me to just smile and go along with the ride.
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slh3016
Guest
And what would you “not seeming perfectly ok” look like? How would it be beneficial to anyone to express your displeasure? I understand that this is a difficult situation but I have had many cousins who have either a) conceived through fornication or b) lived together in sin before marriage. Did I agree with their choices? Heck no. Did I attend their baby and bridal showers. Darned right. Why? Because me making a stink and wagging my self-righteous finger would have not accomplished anything.
I am NOT saying that this is what you will be doing AT ALL, but honestly, what’s done is done and certainly God had a hand in this new life with a precious soul being created. That can and should be celebrated. My twin daughters were conceived likely due to IUI, which as Protestants, was okay, but is not okay in the eyes of the Catholic Church. I confessed that sin before being received into the Church but I look at my beautiful daughters every day and thank God for His precious gift to me. He blessed me in spite of all my sins and shortcomings. Isn’t that what He does with us all?
Can you just skirt around the issue and not really say anything? Just let a smile and warm hug do the speaking and/or something like “I just can’t wait to see his/her precious face”
But what other choice do you have really? :shrug:The baby is coming and what has already happened is water under the bridge.
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Spark2
Guest
This is not an acceptable statement. I very nearly died in childbirth. Admittedly, this is significantly rarer than it once was, but as a young mother in our town DID just die in childbirth, having a child is not without risk.
Since I was having a wanted child, I accepted the inherent risk of death. If I were pregnant with a fetus who was unwanted by me, I do not wish to take that risk. I do indeed place my life above that of a fetus, despite your ideological beliefs. Forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to tern against her will is no different than a hand maiden scenario, or perhaps a forced surrogacy. Surrogacy, as far as I know is not in line with Catholic teaching.
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Rau
Guest
It is likely that the cousin will have a 2nd child too. How many embryos are there I wonder?
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E_7
Guest
In that case, why not? I don’t find it inappropriate to hug and say “so, why didn’t you decide to adopt instead?” (with a gentle smile or naively looking face) , whatever the answer may be, continue “well, although I believe in vitro is wrong and against my beliefs, I’m happy for the baby.” It may itch them, but you did your job by doing your apostolate. And after that, don’t bring it up again. And because you already expressed your beliefs, there is no need to worry and smile and go along with the ride.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
After giving you an appalled look: “That’s a private matter between my husband and I”. (There are no less than 100 reasons why a couple can’t/doesn’t adopt. None of them are your concern.)“I don’t approve of how you conceived”.
“Thanks, I’ll keep that in mind”.
If you can’t help yourself but to tell a pregnant woman who struggled with infertility that you view her baby as a happy outcome of evil/sin/whatever, she probably doesn’t need to see a lot of you anyway. Why would a pregnant woman care at all that her family is “against your beliefs”?
If basic etiquette and decency doesn’t convince you, consider ‘pearls before swine’. What do you think the odds are that your (name removed by moderator)ut would do anything but drive the couple away from your faith, possibly forever?
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Rau
Guest
If it is judged likely that expressing disapproval over the means of conceiving, at this time, will do more harm than good, then under those circumstances, it would be immoral to do so.
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AClaire11
Guest
That would be incredibly rude. As someone who struggled with infertility and came very near to needing IVF, but thankfully was not put to the test, I would find it incredibly difficult to speak to someone again who asked me or a loved one “Why didn’t you just adopt?” or made vocal judgments about my fertility treatments.
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Irishmom2
Guest
A simple: “I am so happy for you, I will keep you and the baby in my prayers” is all that is needed. This is not the time to evangelize or wag a finger at anyone.
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phil19034
Guest
I commend you on your brave choice to keep your child. God Bless you.
I do not wish to derail this thread, however, I do understand first hand how dangerous child birth is. My wife pushed for 4 hours after being at at 10 CMs for for 8 hours, only to then have an emergancy C-Section. I was SCARED to death praying outside the operating room that both my wife and child would be ok until the Dr’s finally let me in the room.
My wife and I also cried with a huge lose when our first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage. It took us a few months before we were emotionally ready to try again because we were both devastated at the loss of our tiny child.
My sister also most died a few months ago during child birth and same with cousin a few weeks ago, as she gave birth to a preme of only 6 months (please pray for her). My other sister had a difficult birth, which resulted in my niece having a damaged arm and needing to suffer through many surgeries in her first 2 years. And my brother’s son was born at 5 months and today (10 years later) is still physically & mentally disabled.
However, I still 100% believe that abortion is murder. The percentage of abortions that take place for the life of the mother is small. The majority of abortions are due to failed contraception or unprotected consensual sex. The couple concented to sex, but they are unwilling to consent to the responsibility that comes with sex.
Child Birth is dangerous. I know. However, unless someone is rapped, pregnancy is the natural outcome of the decision to have sex. BTW - the laws to protect women against rapists are not strict enough in my opinion. The idea that a rapist can sue a mother for joint custody is disgusting. However, the baby should not be punished for the crimes of the father. If society is hellbent on killing someone after a rape, kill the father, but don’t kill the innocent baby.
In general, abortion is a symptom of a society of people unwilling to take responsibility for their actions. Too many people feel a sense of entitlement and many are unwilling to suffer the consequences of their actions. They choose their own personal career goals over the life of another human being. If a man or woman is unwilling to suffer the consequences of sex, don’t have sex. Otherwise, if a mother doesn’t want a baby or can’t provide for him/her then they should do the brave, selfless action of giving the baby up for adoption.
And as far as “forcing a women to risk her life for her child” : first it is NOT morally wrong to actively save a mother’s life which has a side effect of killing the child. That is not an abortion. But it is murder to kill the child because there is a chance an issue might happen.
As a father, I put the lives of my children (both born & unborn) and would gladly die for them or my wife. I believe that is a sign of a good parent.
BTW - it is simple math that if abortion was illegal, there would be more children to adopt, that or more people would abstain from sex to avoid unwanted pregnancies.
In closing: we live in a fallen world. Everyone one of us have to deal with the Crosses we were given, but we also have to carry the Crosses we put upon ourselves.
There is NOTHING in this world that is as beautiful or as selfless as a mother. A mother giving birth is the closest a human can come to being like God. And that’s what makes abortion ever that more tragic.
God Bless
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phil19034
Guest
To play devil’s advocate for a second… There is also no reason for a couple to share with the world that they had in vetro.
BTW, as Catholics are perhaps the only major group who officially believes that in vetro is a Mortal Sin, I believe that most of us would not be expressing our views to a person who did it unless the person was a Catholic and VERY close to us.
If I didn’t have a very close relationship (one where I can talk about anything with them, regardless of how they feel and yet still know that we will love each other afterwards) I wouldn’t say anything.
But if someone was considering it and asked me what I thought, I would tell them.
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Lea101
Guest
Huh. While abortion is wrong, I’ve heard that there are a lot of children that were put up for adoption, but couples usually want babies, not a 10 year old, for instance. So the older children won’t get adopted. Don’t know how legitimate that claim is in the US, but I do know that it’s true to some extent. When I was helping out at a centre, there were a lot of 12 year olds with no parents, and they told me that they weren’t ‘cute and little’ like the other kids who were ‘chosen’
If abortion is legal, there would be sooooo many babies put up for adoption, and not all of them will find a loving home. Which is why some mothers would rather abort than to give the child a ‘terrible’ life. Not that this means that it’s okay to abort, but that’s their thought process
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AiyanaS
Guest
That or illegal coat hanger abortions would become a thing again along with drinking abortive herbal concoctions like people years ago used too.
Also more children to adopt doesn’t always mean a good thing, the adoption process in America is long and expensive, why people like going overseas. There are thousands of children in foster care and many are considered not adoptable for whatever reason. I would not want to put a baby up for adoption hoping they get adopted only to learn they were abused, passed from home to home, were treated as “just another case number” and one of the thousands of children who fell through the cracks and were failed by the American foster care system, because as sad and cruel as that fate is, that’s a reality and happening ever day. I know people who grew up like that and it’s not pretty.
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StudentMI
Guest
Amen. I really think this is bordering scrupulosity with the idea that saying “I’m happy for you” is giving scandal. For pete’s sake, it’s a baby.
“I don’t approve of how you conceived”.
“Thanks, I’ll keep that in mind”.
If you can’t help yourself but to tell a pregnant woman who struggled with infertility that you view her baby as a happy outcome of evil/sin/whatever, she probably doesn’t need to see a lot of you anyway. Why would a pregnant woman care at all that her family is “against your beliefs”?
If basic etiquette and decency doesn’t convince you, consider ‘pearls before swine’. What do you think the odds are that your (name removed by moderator)ut would do anything but drive the couple away from your faith, possibly forever?
I was conceived by a divorced woman and a married man. I was put up for adoption. Thank God they chose life for me.
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Rau
Guest
If abortion stopped today, there would be a steady stream of “babies” available for adoption from 9 months hence.
Not a many as you think, as a proportion would be kept by their parents, and some would be aborted illegally. I don’t think concern forthe child is uppermost in the decision to abort. Statistical data is available on the reasons for abortions - I don’t recall that reason featuring highly at all.
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Moneyball
Guest
Thanks for the advice everyone. I didn’t mean to say that my concern was only with my pregnant cousin but rather the entire family in general. For example, if I’m having a conversation with my immediate family and I hear “good for her, she did the right thing” (refering to getting IVF instead of having to risk not getting a child via the adoption process), should I just keep silent? Of course I’m not looking to be smug or holier than thou, I’m actually a very reserved individual, but at the same time we’re called to live out our faith even with the risks of family division.
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