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StudentMI
Guest
I would keep silent. Pearls before swine.
Family member pregnant with in vitro baby... is it moral to celebrate?
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Moneyball
Guest
I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking you
. To answer the second question, it’s about not being scandalous, which would be beneficial for everyone. Now, whether or not it would be scandolous for me to just keep my mouth shut instead of speaking up is a different story.I know I’m comparing apples and oranges here but when we had to tell the family that we would not attend our cousin’s same sex ceremony we asked ourselves alot of the same questions: should we just play along without saying anything? Can we go and support their relationship without seeing it as a real marriage? Don’t we risk doing more harm than good by not attending and showing our disapproval? As difficult as it was for my wife and I to go against the grain, it was a huge lift off of our consciences. Again, apples and oranges, but there is an argument to be made for both sides…I would imagine.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
I was recently at a family function. One of my husbands relatives is a single mom. She has a baby who is a few months old.
I approached the baby. I cooed and cuddled her. I made her smile. I said “Oh she’s just adorable, God bless”
I didn’t condone the mom’s actions. I did not tell her “we are Catholic, fornication is a sin!!”
She didn’t ask me what the Church teaches.
I didn’t commit any scandal by telling her that the baby is as cute as a button. She is a cute baby.
I can pray for her. I’m sure it’s hard.
I approached the baby. I cooed and cuddled her. I made her smile. I said “Oh she’s just adorable, God bless”
I didn’t condone the mom’s actions. I did not tell her “we are Catholic, fornication is a sin!!”
She didn’t ask me what the Church teaches.
I didn’t commit any scandal by telling her that the baby is as cute as a button. She is a cute baby.
I can pray for her. I’m sure it’s hard.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
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phil19034
Guest
Yes, this is true. However, I believe that most of the older kids are not their from birth. They are orphans of the court, or put up for adoption later by their parents.Huh. While abortion is wrong, I’ve heard that there are a lot of children that were put up for adoption, but couples usually want babies, not a 10 year old, for instance. So the older children won’t get adopted. Don’t know how legitimate that claim is in the US, but I do know that it’s true to some extent. When I was helping out at a centre, there were a lot of 12 year olds with no parents, and they told me that they weren’t ‘cute and little’ like the other kids who were ‘chosen’
If abortion is legal, there would be sooooo many babies put up for adoption, and not all of them will find a loving home. Which is why some mothers would rather abort than to give the child a ‘terrible’ life. Not that this means that it’s okay to abort, but that’s their thought process
It’s tragic. But at least they are alive. My brother-in-law’s grandmother was raised in a convent and had a terrible life when she was young (her mother was a prostitute) and she didn’t arrive their right after birth.
But overtime, she straighten out her life and today she has left a large family to remember her and had a large number of people attend her funeral.
It’s up to each of us to make the most of the lives God gives us.
But when a kid is aborted instead of being put up for adoption, the soul is robbed of the experience of growing up, falling in love, and being human. They are also robbed of the Sacarment of Baptism. So we pray they are in Heaven, with God, but those souls were still robbed of the opportunity to experience life on Earth.
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Allegra
Guest
Most people have enough sense to know that immediately following the announcement of a single relative’s unplanned pregnancy is not the right time to explain one’s position of sex outside of marriage. I don’t see why this situation is any different. The baby is here. Celebrate the life of your new cousin! Find some other opportunity to explain why IVF is wrong. It isn’t the child’s fault.
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phil19034
Guest
Politely silent to whom though?
If this was my cousin, while I wouldn’t say anything to my cousin (considering we are not tight anymore) I would still discuss the situation with my grandmother, parents, siblings, and eventually kids when they are old enough (but not in a gossp way).
When families pretend that a sinful act in the extended family isn’t sinful, that causes scandal. However, you don’t distory the family over it. You must use tact, love and still be mercyiful. But you also can’t let your children believe what Cousin Sue did is sinless.
Just like my sister… She’s has two kids with her significant other and they have been living together for 9 years. They still are not married. When my kids are older, I’m not going to pretend that their aunt’s situation is moral. We still will love my sister, but we don’t want to follow her example. We should learn from their mistakes, not repeat them.
Samething with my dad’s parents… My grandmother got pregant before they were engaged… So they got married. No one taught us that was ok… And my mother-in-law lives with her 70 year old boyfriend. But, we are not going to pretend that grandma’s example is sinless. It will be a hard discussion with our kids when they are older, but they have to understand that grandma was wrong, yet we still loved her.
Ignoring sin in the family isn’t the answer. But I agree you have to know your place. You might not have the authority to correct your cousins, but you can teach your children not to follow their example, but still love them.
God Bless
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Rau
Guest
About the only way you could give scandal in your interactions with the mother would be to praise the decision to choose IVF.I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking you
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mommy_k
Guest
I vote with e-7 and the others who state to ask about adoption. The ex.cuse that there are no babies to adopt is just an excuse. Perhaps through the state, where infants are more rare, but if they had the $ to proceed with ivf, they have the money for a private adoption through a lawyer or private agency. The church has resources to connect families for this too.
The numbers quoted up thread are for state adoptions, where birth families are involved with the state, and adoptions are more difficult, but still possible.
State adoptions waive fees, and that’s why there are waiting lists.
I relay this so people here know too, not to discourage others from adoption, as couples who want a baby may think that ivf is the only way to have a baby these days and it’s not.
Anyone who has ivf knows better then to tell me about this, because I would blatantly tell them I don’t believe in that. Most times when a couple has $ for ivf, they choose this route for genetic reasons over adoption because if they did thier homework, they would know the costs are comparable to private or agency adoption.
It is always moral to celebrate a new life. But at the very least, op, just say you don’t believe in ivf.
The numbers quoted up thread are for state adoptions, where birth families are involved with the state, and adoptions are more difficult, but still possible.
State adoptions waive fees, and that’s why there are waiting lists.
I relay this so people here know too, not to discourage others from adoption, as couples who want a baby may think that ivf is the only way to have a baby these days and it’s not.
Anyone who has ivf knows better then to tell me about this, because I would blatantly tell them I don’t believe in that. Most times when a couple has $ for ivf, they choose this route for genetic reasons over adoption because if they did thier homework, they would know the costs are comparable to private or agency adoption.
It is always moral to celebrate a new life. But at the very least, op, just say you don’t believe in ivf.
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Rau
Guest
Why? What is the good that such an action, at this time, is likely to bring?
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PhiloMed
Guest
I think this is exactly what someone in this situation should say because then they won’t need to worry about ever being invited to be around their sinful scandalous family ever again.
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mommy_k
Guest
They opened the door by telling me, I am just responding honestly. If they are close enough to share details, they should be close enough for me to say, I don’t believe in that.
If a relative told me they use abc, I would say I don’t believe in that.
If a relative told me they were transgender, I would say I don’t believe in that.
If a relative told me they were gay and getting married
I would say I don’t believe 8n that.
If a relative told me they were living with someone outside of marriage, I would say I don’t believe in that.
And so on and so forth.
I am a pretty nice person and would find a way to communicate the above not to offend personally…and have done so without harming the relationship. It’s not hard.
Telling someone, I don’t believe in ivf, but I am happy about the,arrival of the baby is not insulting or judgemental.
Honesty is a good thing, and perhaps if they want to further grow thier family in the future, they know there are other ways.
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mommy_k
Guest
Well if communicated in a mean way, yes…we all don’t have the social skills to pull this off-kwim?I think this is exactly what someone in this situation should say because then they won’t need to worry about ever being invited to be around their sinful scandalous family ever again.
I would know this…not communicate your quote…of mine.
I would say I don’t believe in ivf.
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February
Guest
Moneyball-
I have a few different perspectives on this. First, for many years I worked with moms and babies, mostly single, low income girls/women in unfortunate circumstances. I always congratulated them, especially because most of them heard nothing but criticism from everyone else, even people you would think would help them.
Second, I have lost all of my babies. 2 early miscarriages, a stillbirth, and an infant death. In my world of loss, a pregnancy doesn’t necessarily result in a living child. A simple “congratulations” is really all you need to say at this stage of the pregnancy. Who knows what God’s will might be for her?
Third, I get it. It was difficult for me to watch people in the hospital/NICU who obviously went through IVF (e.g. the lesbian couple) who happily took home their babies. As a Catholic that is not a means I would choose; it was especially disheartening because (not that we are not all sinners) I have spent years changing my life to try to be a better follower of Christ. And here are “sinners” getting to have healthy babies when mine have died. Now I understand that God works in different ways in the lives of all His children…but still unfair.
Lastly, please don’t ask about adoption, especially that awful question “Why don’t you just adopt?” There are many different variables involved with adoption, few of which are easy as “just” adopting. As a Catholic, a social worker and someone who has been through pregnancy struggles…just don’t.
My advice is simple congratulations and prayer. Some evangelization if the opportunity presents itself; like when my friend was pondering IVF if she couldnt get pregnant. I listened, said that i wouldn’t go that route and what Catholics believe about IVF. Seed was planted but there was no lecture. It is uncomfortable and difficult when confronted with something you know is morally wrong, especially if your family sees no issue with it. But you alone are unlikely to change everyone’s minds and hearts. Pray for them, have Masses said for them, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
I have a few different perspectives on this. First, for many years I worked with moms and babies, mostly single, low income girls/women in unfortunate circumstances. I always congratulated them, especially because most of them heard nothing but criticism from everyone else, even people you would think would help them.
Second, I have lost all of my babies. 2 early miscarriages, a stillbirth, and an infant death. In my world of loss, a pregnancy doesn’t necessarily result in a living child. A simple “congratulations” is really all you need to say at this stage of the pregnancy. Who knows what God’s will might be for her?
Third, I get it. It was difficult for me to watch people in the hospital/NICU who obviously went through IVF (e.g. the lesbian couple) who happily took home their babies. As a Catholic that is not a means I would choose; it was especially disheartening because (not that we are not all sinners) I have spent years changing my life to try to be a better follower of Christ. And here are “sinners” getting to have healthy babies when mine have died. Now I understand that God works in different ways in the lives of all His children…but still unfair.
Lastly, please don’t ask about adoption, especially that awful question “Why don’t you just adopt?” There are many different variables involved with adoption, few of which are easy as “just” adopting. As a Catholic, a social worker and someone who has been through pregnancy struggles…just don’t.
My advice is simple congratulations and prayer. Some evangelization if the opportunity presents itself; like when my friend was pondering IVF if she couldnt get pregnant. I listened, said that i wouldn’t go that route and what Catholics believe about IVF. Seed was planted but there was no lecture. It is uncomfortable and difficult when confronted with something you know is morally wrong, especially if your family sees no issue with it. But you alone are unlikely to change everyone’s minds and hearts. Pray for them, have Masses said for them, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
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Maximilan_Kolbe
Guest
We are talking about grave matters. Examples include IVF, gay marriage, abortion, or gay adoption, but also include adultery, rape, and murder.
For some reason, we treat relatives who share their participation in the former four differently than the latter three. Legality aside, because no one has made that argument and we are discussing the question from an ethical standpoint, I get why people want to not wound familial relationships, but when we are talking about grave matters, there does seem to be a consensus that we pick and choose, despite equal gravity in many cases. Some may disagree about equal gravity, but the Church does not.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
But this person is already pregnant. The baby is already conceived.
Asking," why didn’t you adopt?" Or saying “IVF is wrong” isn’t going to change anything, except perhaps alienating someone further from the Church.
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mommy_k
Guest
For som yes, it may alienate the couple. If bluntly stated, definately…However, I say things to relatives honestly, I know that in humiity, my opinion is one of many, especially if everyone is not Catholic but the seed is planted.
Stating I don’t believe in ivf is not unkind, it is a belief… and if they bring this up or other things simular, they should realize they are talking to a Catholic who is assertive (not agressive) in defending beliefs. My intention is not to judge them, it is to stand by my convictions. If Catholics are afraid of chasing people away from the church by expressing beliefs in a kind way, this is a problem imho.
My friends and extended family know me…i d I really would be interested to know the motivations behind why they choose certain things-and if asked why I don’t believe in ivf I would tell them in a compassionate way that i advocate for adoption.
This would not be a lecture, and it would not be to induce guilt, or take away from thier joy of becoming parents. I would be joyful about the new baby, and be involved.
I don’t think I would ever scare anyone away from the church, as I am not that type of person. Relationships matter yes, and a one sided relationship where I can never answer with gentle honesty is not a true relationship.
I agree timing is everything in matters such as this, I would not just blurt it out… when the couple tells me about the ivf is when I would express this. It can be short and sweet, or expanded depending on thier follow up question, and if they ask me why…you see, they opened the door. I would be happy to explain why in the nicest way possible. It can be done. I have had this conversation and it brings respect and closeness.
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phil19034
Guest
This!
This is exactly how I would handle it. But I also know who in my family I can have that kind of conversation with and who in my family I can’t.
The key is doing with love. If you can’t have that conversation in a loving manner, then don’t do it. But if you have the gift of being able to engage in difficult conversations with love, you should use your gift.
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St_Pancake
Guest
I’m just afraid that on judgment day, that God will chastise me for not pointing out enough of the sins of others.
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