Family size as "evidence" of ABC use

  • Thread starter Thread starter StJudePray4Me
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I came across this:

"Surveys since 1968, when the church first condemned the birth-control pill, indicate that nine out of 10 Catholic women have used it and that 65 percent of Catholics and 40 percent of priests do not believe use of contraception is always a sin. "

azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0109birthcontrol09.html

That’s a LOT of women using the hormonal contraceptive pill.

I’ll also admit that I tend to be one of those people who automatically assume that couples are contracepting because they don’t have 5 or more kids…which is stupid, really. I’m starting to learn that a lot of people go through fertility issues (including myself) and it’s not as black and white as we’d like to make it seem. However-- if a couple is married for years and years and years-- such as 20±- I mean, come on now. No one has to do any assuming much there! They’re either infertile or one of those couples that got married and dislike children. Usually, those couples adopt. Okay so maybe that’s another judgment but that is based on what I have witnessed personally.
 
There is an epidemic of infertility, partly due to ABC use (which sometimes leaves lingering effects) and partly due to later marriage (female fertility declines after mid-20s, steeply at 30/older).

There is a conspiracy of silence–women aren’t being told the truth.

youtube.com/watch?v=xAIv0Rr9WYw

Our modern first-world society is very unnatural and I hope the young people force it to be focused on what is good for families. 👍
 
spunjalebi said:
if a couple is married for years and years and years-- such as 20±- I mean, come on now. No one has to do any assuming much there! **They’re either infertile or one of those couples that got married and dislike children. **Usually, those couples adopt. Okay so maybe that’s another judgment but that is based on what I have witnessed personally.
Click to expand...
Unless you can somehow tell which are infertile or permanently abstain for medical, spiritual or mental reasons, its best not to assume that they “dislike children” because you could be way off base and you may offend them.
 
A lot of the infertility issues also stem before marriage. There’s a lot of women with PCOS who don’t realize they had it until after they’re married and are trying to conceive. Personally, I think we need more NaPro doctors who specialize in treating PCOS without the use of hormones, along with the push for early intervention and care. I know this is OT, but that’s what I think.
 
I have my DD and have had 4 miscarriages. We’ve been ttc our entire marriage–so almost 3 years of wasted pregnancy tests and early losses. If someone came up to me and assumed I was using ABC because I only have one child, I’d bite their head off…figuratively. 🤷

KG
 
Truth is the Catholic standard for sexual morality is very high and demanding, and the fact that we see so few large families among Catholics is a sign that the contraceptive mentality is pervasive. We’re not to look at particular couples and make a judgement or assumption about their using or not ABC, but as a whole the number of children is indicative that there’s a discrepancy between Church Teachings on sexuality and reproduction, and how Catholic families actually live their lives. My parents were both practicing Catholics during their fertile years, had 4 kids, and if you assumed they never used contraception, you’d be wrong. Some people here make it sound as if a very high percentage of couples had problem conceiving, which simply isn’t true. Denying reality is futile.
 
spunjalebi said:
A lot of the infertility issues also stem before marriage. There’s a lot of women with PCOS who don’t realize they had it until after they’re married and are trying to conceive. Personally, I think we need more NaPro doctors who specialize in treating PCOS without the use of hormones, along with the push for early intervention and care. I know this is OT, but that’s what I think.
Click to expand...
I think we also should be aware of assuming that its always a female infertility problem. Sometimes its the male counterpart and sometimes its a combination of both female and male infertility problems.
 
Robertanthony said:
Truth is the Catholic standard for sexual morality is very high and demanding, and the fact that we see so few large families among Catholics is a sign that the contraceptive mentality is pervasive. We’re not to look at particular couples and make a judgement or assumption about their using or not ABC, but as a whole the number of children is indicative that there’s a discrepancy between Church Teachings on sexuality and reproduction, and how Catholic families actually live their lives. My parents were both practicing Catholics during their fertile years, had 4 kids, and if you assumed they never used contraception, you’d be wrong.
Click to expand...
Bold = well put.

I think something to add as a reason is the rise of the 2 income family.
Robertanthony said:
Some people here make it sound as if a very high percentage of couples had problem conceiving, which simply isn’t true. Denying reality is futile.
Click to expand...
Well you didn’t provide any evidence that supports saying that what was a qualitative statement “is simply not true” What I think people are pointing out over and over again (as a reaction to others posts) is that when there are underlying reasons such as infertility or no sexual relations, that it is hurtful to those folks to assume they have a contraceptive mentality (which you are clearly not assuming).
 
I think here’s the bottom line: people see the anti-contraception standpoint of the Church meaning “get pregnant a lot.” When people see the decline of Catholic family sizes, they assume that pregnancy is being prevented. Catholic families are still being encouraged to have children, and Catholic married couples are encouraged to be generous with each other. That has not changed, but family size has.
 
DH and I have been married for 14 yrs and only have DS. We do not use ABC. We have gotten snide remarks from fellow parishnors and relatives. We just ignore them.
 
I will say that I do think there is some corelation bewteen the number of small families and use of ABC by Catholics.

Only about 16% of women have fertility problems (of varying degrees, about the same for males). 84 of 100 women will get pregnant with in a year without use of ABC. 94 out of 100 women will concieve within 3 years.

So, I find it hard to believe that ABC isn’t common in the Catholic community.
Even using NFP has pregnancy rates of about 3% when used perfectly and upto 25% in general.

Assuming everyone in our church was using NFP, then I think we have about the number of children per family you’d expect. However, I really, really doubt that’s the case. There are virtually no large families at our church (that I’ve noticed).

The fact is that about 90% of couples are fertile enough to have 3 kids in 6 years and if married in the early 20’s they could easily have 6-8 kids before they’re not fertile anymore. However, another thing to take into account is people tend to marry later now than they used to leaving fewer fertile years of marriage which is probably part of the cause.

I’m not judging anyone personally, just pointing out that there is a problem with this in the community right now.
 
That’s all very true mcrow. I also think we are leaving out the couples where one person desires to use NFP, and the other person adamantly refuses. Sometimes lack of family size can be indicative of family issues that we aren’t always aware of.
 
These are all very good posts. Just to add my $.02, I don’t personally care what other people do or don’t do in regards to ABC or NFP. I know what I think and feel is wrong, but I cannot force any one to agree with me or to do as I say (or what the Church says, for that matter).

But as the OP was trying to point out, there are many people out there who struggle from Infertility. If you think there isn’t, there is a thread posted on this forum, see the large number of posts and subscribers there and you will soon realize, it affects more than you thought. I know I was surprised by it, and those families are in my prayers. It is hurtful to those families, and insensitive of the rest of us, to say things like “they HAVE to be using ABC or they would have more kids!” or “Well, if they are using NFP, they are obviously not doing it for the right reasons” Just reading some of those ladies posts made me realize that comments like these are like sticking a knife in their hearts.
 
Its horrible to judge someone off of surface qualities.

I also know someone who doesn’t use BC but has no children. She cannot become pregnant anymore as she has gone through menopause. But when she was younger, her and her husband tried to conceive MANY times. Eventually, she finally got pregnant. She was so happy and it broke her heart when she lost the baby. I would think if someone assumed she used BC, she would probably feel very sensitive as children might be a touchy topic for her, especially if someone is assuming ill of her.

Secondly, even if I KNOW someone is using birth control in their marriage, I still wouldn’t really say anything and I’d try my hardest not to judge. God makes the judgments and I can pray for them, but its really not my place to lecture another adult or anything.
 
I’ll quote "The Imitation of Christ:"
It is great wisdom and perfection to consider ourselves as nothing and always to judge well and highly of others. If you should see someone commit a sin or some grievous wrong, do not think of yourself as someone better, for you know not how long you will remain in your good state. We are all frail; but think of yourself as more frail than others

When we go to Mass or any Catholic goings-on, we should not be analyzing the frailties or sins of our brethren and speculating or gossipping or pondering their lack of children or other familial peculiarities. It’s disturbing, period. Why don’t we focus on our own issues, sins, and need for Christ? The OP is totally correct. It’s none of our business and the only purpose that calling our fellow Catholics “cafeteria Catholics” can serve is edifying ourselves because we’re so “wonderful” and doing the right thing bolstering ourselves as these poor pitiable folks are not. It’s Pharisaic. Good for the OP! 👍
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I’ll quote "The Imitation of Christ:"
It is great wisdom and perfection to consider ourselves as nothing and always to judge well and highly of others. If you should see someone commit a sin or some grievous wrong, do not think of yourself as someone better, for you know not how long you will remain in your good state. We are all frail; but think of yourself as more frail than others

When we go to Mass or any Catholic goings-on, we should not be analyzing the frailties or sins of our brethren and speculating or gossipping or pondering their lack of children or other familial peculiarities. It’s disturbing, period. Why don’t we focus on our own issues, sins, and need for Christ? The OP is totally correct. It’s none of our business and the only purpose that calling our fellow Catholics “cafeteria Catholics” can serve is edifying ourselves because we’re so “wonderful” and doing the right thing bolstering ourselves as these poor pitiable folks are not. It’s Pharisaic. Good for the OP! 👍
Click to expand...
I dare you to repeat this in a modesty thread, but I somehow doubt anyone will actually pay attention to what you are trying to say!
 
I double dog dare ya! 😛 What, if I may ask, is a masala Catholic? I must’ve missed that at catechism! :confused:
spunjalebi said:
I dare you to repeat this in a modesty thread, but I somehow doubt anyone will actually pay attention to what you are trying to say!
Click to expand...
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I’ll quote "The Imitation of Christ:"
It is great wisdom and perfection to consider ourselves as nothing and always to judge well and highly of others. If you should see someone commit a sin or some grievous wrong, do not think of yourself as someone better, for you know not how long you will remain in your good state. We are all frail; but think of yourself as more frail than others
Click to expand...
That’s where I got my mentality that I killed inside of me while trying to be a good protestant. I was convinced this was a whole bunch of malarchy during those years and have been trying to remember where I had learned this. My aunt’s and grandparents practiced this. But the problem is that they never grew and they were not successful at passing on the faith to their children because they failed to stand up for right and against wrong clearly for their children to learn. That’s why I try to teach my children right from wrong very clearly.

It’s true that we should not be rude to each other, but in the conversation of such topics it’s foolish to assume we should never speak about the topics that concern the community. We are a community and therefore everything we do has an impact on the greater community. Two income families is something I’ve been harping on for years. I always hated my wife’s use of ABC and find NFP disturbing in the way its used widely across the board against Church teaching - as birth control.

If we want to make a difference in the world we need to ignore the people that persuade us to abandon our faith as I’ve learned. Nearly all of my famliy, my wife’s family either used some form of birth control and eventually got sterylized. My own wife hurt my feelings deeply with her last protest rooted in fear because of a birth defect that cause us much pain afterwards. The healing of our last child was a miracle and I attribute it to my plea during a bought of anger towards Pope John Paul II. Our last child was born April 1, 2005, right before JPII passed. My wife was still in the hospital and on the last day started the procdure while I was away. I made a snide remark about it before she actually did it. I had hoped she’d put it off, but was obviously wrong. It tore me up inside, etc.

Life is very difficult today compared to 40 years ago. There has been a push for women to enter the work force because there have been no babies to fill the growing job market. In spite of this fact, industry still managed to push out jobs from this country to countries with much higher birth rates and are willing to work for less money. A lot of blame can be passed around on this, but in reality we ultimately should never have entered the rude remarks directed towards poor families who had large families.

The irony is that my wife is one of 8 and my mom is one of 10. My Catholic father is one of 4. All of their siblings limited the number of children they gave birth to except my Catholic family, that ranged from none, 3, 3 and 6. The none family is not up for me to judge because I don’t know her situation (I think infertile). I have 3 children ranging from 5 to 16. People always comment on the spacing. That’s because of ABC use partly, but mostly because of sustenance. I recall working hard through prayer to conceive and imagined many times throwing away the pills that ingrained anger in me.

I wanted a large family. But now I accept that the Lord, through the evil, kept us limited to what we could handle. I take it now that limited to 3 children is the pain I must carry because of my infidelity to the faith when I defected. I can’t live lamenting the non-birth of children that could have been, even though I do sometimes. My wife was Protestant and is flighty, stubborn and all that jazz. I should have listened to the Catholic Church teaching on this against the popularized deceitful “Professional Catholics” employed by the Catholic Church taught. But I didn’t really know or understand enough to make good decisions. I thought I did but realized many years later how ill equipped I was. Poor examples lead me away from the Church and I lost my faith, not in God, but in the Catholic Church. I believed that the hierarchy was lying to us. Long story. I discovered true Church teaching finally by researching and through converts discovered true Church teaching, not this cradle Catholic cafeteria style faith I learned growing up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top