Family size as "evidence" of ABC use

[lifeisbeautiful]

The risk is anemia. I have had it and it is miserable. No one is saying not to have them. While for many they have been problem free many have had problems. Plus with having babies so close to one another many women are just plain weary. I agree that no one should say anything to you but if they do maybe they just worry about your overall health.

The orthodox Catholics out there glorify the family with a big number of kids who homeschool. Sometimes people can’t live up to that. Don’t think that whatever works for you will work for them.

Any pregnancy poses a risk for anemia, along with risks for other health issues. Is it a concrete/proven fact that any woman who conceives before 15 mo have passed has such a higher risk of anemia that it is automatically unhealthy for her to do so? Anemia in pregnancy is a good example of an issue that can be heavily influenced by several factors that vary by woman, including nutrition, genetics, previous pregnancy/birth experiences, etc. My levels were fine when they tested me when my baby was 10 months old, yet I have a friend that I was talking with this weekend who is still anemic and still recuperating from her (traumatic) birth, and her baby is older than 15 mo, the age that would put the spacing at 2 years. All I was trying to get to was that we should not say someone made an unhealthy choice by being open to another little one just because they did not wait 15 months. Its up to each couple to look at their situation and decide whether or not the should avoid at the moment. I know two families that have closely spaced children, 9 and 12 respectively. Each family has a child with special needs. These children could have been #5, #7, #9, whatever number down the line and there is a good chance people would have blamed their family planning choices on their health issues, but both children were the firstborn to each family.

 

[Rence]

Originally Posted by KostyaJMJ
I’m not sure where it comes from. I know there is a traditionalist community near by with a 6 child minimum for attending. I assume that it is something like a secret handshake for them but I’ve never asked. We used to go there but my wife wanted to stop because she said she could feel their eyes burning holes through the back of her head.

LOL, Yep, that’s exactly what I was thinking. I’d be running fast from a community like that

 

[mcrow]

The message is "I don’t know who you are, but I know there are some of you worthy of my judgement…I mean, c’mon, do the math: somebody here deserves condemnation! " I would argue that this is at the very least an imprudent direction of thought, and that more probably it isn’t a message that is allowed us at all, as it puts our own souls in peril.

We are allowed to judge one action as being morally allowed, another to be praiseworthy, and another to be wrong. How can we instruct and admonish each other, if we cannot do that? Yet we may not judge other persons as culpable or not, and that prohibition is not just on judging individuals. We may not make blanket judgments on groups, either. This is because the judgement of persons requires the ability to read hearts, which we do not have.

Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful. Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you; a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing, will be poured into your lap. For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you. Luke 6:36-38

We don’t need to guess who is doing what in order to instruct and admonish each other about what is right and what is wrong. If we don’t guess that this one is moral and that one is not, then we will neither pass over those who are “under the radar” nor wrongly lay blame where no blame belongs. If we do guess about the morality being exercised in secret by a group of people, we risk that we will fail in the command to have the Father’s own mercy and compassion for the faults of others. IMHO, we do best to stick to the actions, and not attempt to read the people for indirect “evidence” of wrongdoing, on that account.

Besides, just look at it from a practical point of view: What good does it do to survey our Church and guess what sins other people are committing behind closed doors? What good can it do to make that our business? Does it make us more compassionate, to think that we can discern who is just and who is pretending? Does imagining who could be hiding what change what is true about what is right and what is wrong? Can we not instruct on each other about right and wrong without this kind of conjecture? Since I don’t see what good it achieves, I don’t see how it is worth the risk.

I’m not judging. Did I say anyone was going to hell for this? Nope. I was just stating that the numbers don’t seem to jive and that it’s pretty likely that the problem is bigger than many want to believe. That’s all I’m saying. Nobody knows who’s going to hell or what they’re going to hell for if they do indeed go. However, the Church is clearly against the use of ABC, so we know that it is wrong.

Also, who’s suggesting we setup a panel to guess at who’s using ABC and who is not? This is what you seem to trying to say that I’m suggesting and I’m not. I just saying there is a problem with using ABC, I don’t know a good way to fix it or I would have suggested something.

Again you have the wrong basis of judgement. John 7:24 says: “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” The verses from Luke that you quote are just saying don’t judge if you are hypocrit, not that you shouldn’t judge at all. It is your duty to speak up when people are wrong. It doesn’t mean you go around pointing fingers, but there are times when you need to speak up. This an often misunderstood idea people get from the bible. Don’t judge someone for something you, yourself are doing. Not to mention our judgement is entirely different from God’s. Ours is simply point out what someone is doing , not deciding if they are going to hell for it.

As I stated, I’m not judging in the sense that I think anyone is going to hell. I have no way to know who’s going to hell and who isn’t.

Under your definition of judging you really wouldn’t be able to say anything about anything anyone is doing. So, that dirtbag child abuser, nope you can’t say anything. After all, you can’t judge. Right? No, that’s now how it works. You can speak out against what is wrong, that isn’t judgement unless you are singling out people.

 

[PaulinVA]

What I have learned from this thread is that assumptions about the Catholic population don’t always hold up under scrutiny.

I feel for all of you who have trouble conceiving.

The problem with making generalizations is that they apply to real, individual people. Individuals can say, “Hey, he’s talking about ME, and, he’s WRONG!”

Knowing that, people making generalizations should be sensitive to the accuracy of the generalizations and what the issues are causing the thing that is being spoken of.

 

[HouseArrest]

I still submit there is no good achieved by making conjectures about who is and is not following moral law. Family size is not an indication about whether a couple follows moral law or not. I think we do best to speak the truth about what is right, what is praiseworthy, and what is wrong, and then after that mind our own business. The rest just causes trouble.

I agree with you. It has been said many times in this thread by most of the participants that it is not a good idea to look at a certain couple and declare the reason why their family is small-ish.

 

[mcrow]

I agree with you. It has been said many times in this thread by most of the participants that it is not a good idea to look at a certain couple and declare the reason why their family is small-ish.

That’s exactly one of the things I’ve been pointing out in my posts but apparently most people here are not reading it that way.

Maybe it’s my strange way of thinking but I think you can form a general opinion about a large group of people without pointing fingers at anyone in particular.

I make no assumptions about who is or isn’t following which parts of the faith since I can’t really know. In fact, most of the time I will assume an individual is a saint long before I’d assume they are using ABC.

However, when you look around your parish and the congregation is older, and older and families are smaller and smaller, I think it’s OK to discuss possible causes for it.

If we can’t have an open discussion about things happening in our community without a bunch of people pulling out the “judgment card” then the few areas where there could be improvement will never improve.

It’s sort of like saying inner city attendance numbers are way down. Does this mean it applies to all cities and all inner city churches? No.

I think if people should be upset if someone says “all people with no kids (or only a couple) must be using ABC”. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that the number of infertile people and late married people cannot be so much greater now than they were 20 years ago to explain the huge drop off in the number of large families. That’s all I’m saying. I’m just trying to have an open discussion about the subject.

 

[EasterJoy]

That’s exactly one of the things I’ve been pointing out in my posts but apparently most people here are not reading it that way.

Maybe it’s my strange way of thinking but I think you can form a general opinion about a large group of people without pointing fingers at anyone in particular.

I make no assumptions about who is or isn’t following which parts of the faith since I can’t really know. In fact, most of the time I will assume an individual is a saint long before I’d assume they are using ABC.

However, when you look around your parish and the congregation is older, and older and families are smaller and smaller, I think it’s OK to discuss possible causes for it.

If we can’t have an open discussion about things happening in our community without a bunch of people pulling out the “judgment card” then the few areas where there could be improvement will never improve.

It’s sort of like saying inner city attendance numbers are way down. Does this mean it applies to all cities and all inner city churches? No.

I think if people should be upset if someone says “all people with no kids (or only a couple) must be using ABC”. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that the number of infertile people and late married people cannot be so much greater now than they were 20 years ago to explain the huge drop off in the number of large families. That’s all I’m saying. I’m just trying to have an open discussion about the subject.

I know what you’re trying to say. I know you have no desire to condemn anybody. I’m saying that you don’t need to make conjectures about particular parishes in order to have an open discussion about the subject. You don’t need to run the risk of being taken the wrong way. We don’t need to go down that path at all, and there is good reason not to.

OK, let’s look at the inner city churches…attendance is way down. You can see that. You cannot say, “Attendance is down in this parish because…” when you’ve never done a survey or done the work to figure out who isn’t attending that might be and why they aren’t. You can’t say: These are the possible reasons, but without any evidence I’m going to decide which one is the important reason and that these others ones are negligible.

Do many self-identified Catholics use birth control? Yes! Has anyone disputed this? Read the polls, this is what they tell people. Is it evidence of widespread ABC use that a parish has families of 3-4 children, or even fewer? No, not in any particular case, no it is not. How can I say that? Because of the number of families I know that use NFP that have smaller families. Mostly, though, because I am a scientist, and I hate drawing conclusions from insufficient evidence.

I know lots of families that use NFP. I grew up in an area where I thought of our family of eight as medium-sized. That is how many families of ten or twelve or more I knew of. For NFP users, I’m talking about people from families of this size. If I were in a parish in which everybody used NFP, but with a high number of college-educated professional parents, I would predict a typical family size of three or maybe four. I know some NFP users who have families of six, but that’s not the norm. Two isn’t that uncommon. I know of so many couples who have wanted a child and could not get pregnant, too. I even know one family with ten children…six are adopted. The couple themselves produced four biological children.

It is unwise to use average family size as “evidence” of ABC use in a parish. There are too many pitfalls down that path. I guarantee you, you will insult somebody, no matter how careful you are with your semantics. Use polling numbers about what Catholics say about their own actual knowledge and practices when it comes to these life matters. That is “evidence” enough. If you can’t start the conversation from what actual Catholics have said is true about themselves, where can you start it? It is a much better way to go, IMO.

 

[mcrow]

I know what you’re trying to say. I know you have no desire to condemn anybody. I’m saying that you don’t need to make conjectures about particular parishes in order to have an open discussion about the subject. You don’t need to run the risk of being taken the wrong way. We don’t need to go down that path at all, and there is good reason not to.

OK, let’s look at the inner city churches…attendance is way down. You can see that. You cannot say, “Attendance is down in this parish because…” when you’ve never done a survey or done the work to figure out who isn’t attending that might be and why they aren’t. You can’t say: These are the possible reasons, but without any evidence I’m going to decide which one is the important reason and that these others ones are negligible.

Do many self-identified Catholics use birth control? Yes! Has anyone disputed this? Read the polls, this is what they tell people. Is it evidence of widespread ABC use that a parish has families of 3-4 children, or even fewer? No, not in any particular case, no it is not. How can I say that? Because of the number of families I know that use NFP that have smaller families. Mostly, though, because I am a scientist, and I hate drawing conclusions from insufficient evidence.

I know lots of families that use NFP. I grew up in an area where I thought of our family of eight as medium-sized. That is how many families of ten or twelve or more I knew of. For NFP users, I’m talking about people from families of this size. If I were in a parish in which everybody used NFP, but with a high number of college-educated professional parents, I would predict a typical family size of three or maybe four. I know some NFP users who have families of six, but that’s not the norm. Two isn’t that uncommon. I know of so many couples who have wanted a child and could not get pregnant, too. I even know one family with ten children…six are adopted. The couple themselves produced four biological children.

It is unwise to use average family size as “evidence” of ABC use in a parish. There are too many pitfalls down that path. I guarantee you, you will insult somebody, no matter how careful you are with your semantics. Use polling numbers about what Catholics say about their own actual knowledge and practices when it comes to these life matters. That is “evidence” enough. If you can’t start the conversation from what actual Catholics have said is true about themselves, where can you start it? It is a much better way to go, IMO.

Thanks, Joy, for the respectful and well thought out response. I have a degree in medical technology and also have a scientific mind, so to speak. My intent isn’t to point out any particular person or even parrish. Also, I don’t mean to say that all of the small families (or even most) Catholics are using ABC. It’s just that my opinion is that it’s likely that too many people are using it. The reason I repeat this is that several people on hear seemed to be denying that there are significant numbers of Catholics who are using ABC. Granted, I think that it’s likely much less of a problem among Catholics who are not cafeteria Catholics. Again, there’s now way to know who is or isn’t a cafeteria Catholic or who is or isn’t using ABC.

My intention here is just to point out my observations of the Catholic parishes I’ve seen recently. Obviously, I’m not talking about polls or study data here, it’s just my personal observations. It may or may not be true of the Church as a whole. It’s just one of those things that I was sitting in church one day and noticed, “Hey, you know what? There are almost no large families in our church”. Then when visiting other Churches I noticed the same thing.

I would really like to see a bigger effort made to combat ABC, but it’s not an easy situation to analyze or remedy. It’s not something you can poke at too much without offending or alienating a large number of people.

 

[happymommy]

Thanks, Joy, for the respectful and well thought out response. I have a degree in medical technology and also have a scientific mind, so to speak. My intent isn’t to point out any particular person or even parrish. Also, I don’t mean to say that all of the small families (or even most) Catholics are using ABC. It’s just that my opinion is that it’s likely that too many people are using it. The reason I repeat this is that several people on hear seemed to be denying that there are significant numbers of Catholics who are using ABC. Granted, I think that it’s likely much less of a problem among Catholics who are not cafeteria Catholics. Again, there’s now way to know who is or isn’t a cafeteria Catholic or who is or isn’t using ABC.

My intention here is just to point out my observations of the Catholic parishes I’ve seen recently. Obviously, I’m not talking about polls or study data here, it’s just my personal observations. It may or may not be true of the Church as a whole. It’s just one of those things that I was sitting in church one day and noticed, “Hey, you know what? There are almost no large families in our church”. Then when visiting other Churches I noticed the same thing.

I would really like to see a bigger effort made to combat ABC, but it’s not an easy situation to analyze or remedy. It’s not something you can poke at too much without offending or alienating a large number of people.

You should come to our church. Lots of big families!! That being said. We have friends that have two children, about two years apart, they were never able to get pregnant again. Some would look at them and think ABC. But the truth is, they are open to life, it just hasn’t happened for them. Their youngest is 11. Another family has 4 children and very much wants more, also, unable to get pregnant again. Their youngest is 8. For some reason God has set the number of children for these families on the “low” side. I’m sure there is a reason for it, perhaps adoption, but it’s hard on them. To have someone think that they were using ABC would hurt.

Is ABC a problem in the Catholic Church? Yes it is! It needs to be talked about. We are very blessed to have a parish priest that lays it all out there. Talks about NFP and the beauty of the family. It’s wonderful. But I think it is rare and that’s a shame. This is what our faith teaches, that children are a gift from God, that we, as married Catholics should be open to having them. But it seems to me that in today’s world the value of children isn’t there and some priests don’t take the responsibilty on themselves to make sure that their parish is being taught what the Catholic faith really believes. You can’t wait until the couple is getting married to discuss it with them. It has to start earlier in their faith and this is what the problem is with so many issues, people just are not learning the faith! They are misinformed and until we fix that at the earliest age group, it’s not going to get any better.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

I thought NFP was as effective or more effective than ABC, not less??.. If this is so then I have no idea why anyone would try to make that type of assumption based on family size.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks, Joy, for the respectful and well thought out response. I have a degree in medical technology and also have a scientific mind, so to speak. My intent isn’t to point out any particular person or even parrish. Also, I don’t mean to say that all of the small families (or even most) Catholics are using ABC. It’s just that my opinion is that it’s likely that too many people are using it. The reason I repeat this is that several people on hear seemed to be denying that there are significant numbers of Catholics who are using ABC. Granted, I think that it’s likely much less of a problem among Catholics who are not cafeteria Catholics. Again, there’s now way to know who is or isn’t a cafeteria Catholic or who is or isn’t using ABC.

My intention here is just to point out my observations of the Catholic parishes I’ve seen recently. Obviously, I’m not talking about polls or study data here, it’s just my personal observations. It may or may not be true of the Church as a whole. It’s just one of those things that I was sitting in church one day and noticed, “Hey, you know what? There are almost no large families in our church”. Then when visiting other Churches I noticed the same thing.

I would really like to see a bigger effort made to combat ABC, but it’s not an easy situation to analyze or remedy. It’s not something you can poke at too much without offending or alienating a large number of people.

I think that just the poll numbers say that there is a need for catechesis on this and many other issues.

It has been my observation that families who use NFP also have significantly smaller broods than their parents did. Based on conversations with them, I think the reasons are

a) because of NFP, they can make that choice. In the past, families who couldn’t emotionally or financially afford to have more children got them, anyway. I have had NFP users even wonder out loud if they had not been less generous than they could have been. If you don’t have the knowledge to limit family size without ABC, that isn’t an option.

b) couples get married later in life, by several years. Considering how many of the big families I knew growing up had their first three or four kids in their first five years of marriage, that is a big deal. If you get married at nineteen and have five kids in six years, you have quite a head start on someone who wasn’t a wife until she was twenty-five.

c) between both parents having a job outside the home and all the other activities in the life of a family with children these days, couples become too tired to have sex at a smaller family size. (My mom had eight kids and thought her life had been less nuts than her daughters-in-law who had “only” four.)

Even among those Catholics who by self-report to use NFP and not ABC, the average family size has dropped significantly; you might even say drastically.

 

[SeaShoreGirl]

I think that just the poll numbers say that there is a need for catechesis on this and many other issues.

It has been my observation that families who use NFP also have significantly smaller broods than their parents did. Based on conversations with them, I think the reasons are

a) because of NFP, they can make that choice. In the past, families who couldn’t emotionally or financially afford to have more children got them, anyway. I have had NFP users even wonder out loud if they had not been less generous than they could have been. If you don’t have the knowledge to limit family size without ABC, that isn’t an option.

b) couples get married later in life, by several years. Considering how many of the big families I knew growing up had their first three or four kids in their first five years of marriage, that is a big deal. If you get married at nineteen and have five kids in six years, you have quite a head start on someone who wasn’t a wife until she was twenty-five.

c) between both parents having a job outside the home and all the other activities in the life of a family with children these days, couples become too tired to have sex at a smaller family size. (My mom had eight kids and thought her life had been less nuts than her daughters-in-law who had “only” four.)

Even among those Catholics who by self-report to use NFP and not ABC, the average family size has dropped significantly; you might even say drastically.

I tend to disagree with the “Started late”. My friend’s one set of grandparents were married at 21 and 22. They had four kids before the succomed to liberal cultural stearlization. Her other grandparents were married at 32 and 28 had 12 kids, 10 surviving childhood.

It’s anacdotal but powerful

 

[EasterJoy]

I tend to disagree with the “Started late”. My friend’s one set of grandparents were married at 21 and 22. They had four kids before the succomed to liberal cultural stearlization. Her other grandparents were married at 32 and 28 had 12 kids, 10 surviving childhood.

It’s anacdotal but powerful

It is possible to have 10 kids when you don’t start until 28, but there are concrete biological reasons that this outcome is not the way to bet, even if you’re trying for 10.

Many people I know are marrying at 26 or 27, often older. As I like to say, they’re deciding to opt out of the “trial marriage” they see their friends getting into (and quickly out of! ), and waiting for the one that’s going to last. Alas, that can take a bit more to find, these days.

 

[mcrow]

I thought NFP was as effective or more effective than ABC, not less??.. If this is so then I have no idea why anyone would try to make that type of assumption based on family size.

No, you are incorrect on a few accounts here.

NFP is as effective as ABC when used 100% correctly, but is much more difficult to use and does not protect against poor judgement in the heat of the moment. Pregnancy rate can be as high as 25% with NFP or as low as 2% (assuming perfect use).

The numbers I look at and they make me wonder is 24% of Americans are Catholic, but only 1.5% use NFP. So, the assumption that everyone would use NFP instead of ABC because they have the same rates is not true by effectiveness and actual use in the population.

 

[mcrow]

It is possible to have 10 kids when you don’t start until 28, but there are concrete biological reasons that this outcome is not the way to bet, even if you’re trying for 10.

Many people I know are marrying at 26 or 27, often older. As I like to say, they’re deciding to opt out of the “trial marriage” they see their friends getting into (and quickly out of! ), and waiting for the one that’s going to last. Alas, that can take a bit more to find, these days.

I agree, while it’s possible to have a large family if you don’t start until 26-28, it’s not common.

 

[sanctamaria17]

I have to agree with Easter Joy’s assessment. Also, with all the hormones and such in our water, I would not be surprised if there were more fertility issues. Not to mention that STI’s are pretty high among young people and one major side effect is infertility.

For me personally, I’m likely to not marry until later. I am graduating college this year, submitting applications for volunteer positions overseas and will likely not be making serious money for a couple years. Then, I have to pay back my loans. So, while I could marry relatively young, we probably would have good reasons to use NFP and space them out. I also will likely return to the tri-state area, where living expenses are pretty high. And honestly? While I’d be open to kids, I don’t think I’d want more than three. Of course, God may have other plans and I would have to be open to that. At the same time, I don’t think there’s sin in a couple saying they hope for a smaller family. Children are blessings but great gifts come with great responsibility and people must discern whether they are able and ready to take on that responsibility. That rests between them and God.

 

[EasterJoy]

I have to agree with Easter Joy’s assessment. Also, with all the hormones and such in our water, I would not be surprised if there were more fertility issues. Not to mention that STI’s are pretty high among young people and one major side effect is infertility.

There are non-Catholic women who use NFP because it uses no pharmaceuticals, because they have other problems with barriers methods. There are people who eat like monks for the sake of the planet that wouldn’t dream of doing it for the sake of religion.

For me personally, I’m likely to not marry until later. I am graduating college this year, submitting applications for volunteer positions overseas and will likely not be making serious money for a couple years. Then, I have to pay back my loans…

This is a contrast to the days when your relatives might worry that you’d never marry if you got very far into your 20s and hadn’t tied the knot. When my parents married, young couples might have nothing substantial in the way of savings, but they also didn’t have a mountain of debt to deal with. With a high school education and a good work ethic, a man could support a rather large family at the prevailing standard of living…and the prevailing standard of living is what people tend to think of as the minimum acceptable standard.

 

[Nicolemj]

Can someone please let me know what ABC and NFP are? I am not currently Catholic but attending a Catholic church. I have not heard of them at this time.

Thank you
Nicole

 

[wakawaka]

Can someone please let me know what ABC and NFP are? I am not currently Catholic but attending a Catholic church. I have not heard of them at this time.

Thank you
Nicole

ABC stands for artificial birth control (pill, ring, shot, IUD, surgical procedures, etc). It prevents human life and hormonal types of ABC can cause very early abortions, so it is not allowed by the Catholic Church.

NFP stands for natural family planning. Nowadays, there are many forms of it (measuring a woman’s basal body temperature, the calendar way, and other ways that I don’t know much about, sorry:blush It is permitted by the Church, because it still open to life, does not poison marriages by disrespecting God’s wishes, or run any risk of ending a very early life.

Hope that helps!

 

[Nicolemj]

Thank you very much I appreciate you explaining it. I am not sure who I would ask this next question to but if you are not Catholic and you have/use one of these ABC do you have to stop or have it removed? What if there are medical conditions that are requiring it and its not used to actually prevent pregnancy but for the medical condition? If a person is already infertile there is nothing to prevent.

I see this is a sensitive subject and I do not intend to start any debate. I simply don’t know about Catholic beliefs and I am trying to figure out if Catholicism is where I am being led to go.

Thank you
Nicole