Family size as "evidence" of ABC use

[PaulinVA]

I’m not sure where it comes from. I know there is a traditionalist community near by with a 6 child minimum for attending. I assume that it is something like a secret handshake for them but I’ve never asked. We used to go there but my wife wanted to stop because she said she could feel their eyes burning holes through the back of her head.

Well, isn’t that special!

I think that this thread should be required reading for people who want to judge others. There is a lot of pain and disappointment here. And, I might add, justified defiance.

I think it’s okay to bemoan the state of the Church, and talk about widespread ABC use, but you can’t tell who those people are unless they tell you.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Then you have never been on the receiving end of a snide comment about your family size and how you MUST be using ABC. The small minority you are talking about is standing up in this thread and saying we’ve had it, do not assume you know us, and do not tell us to take offense or quit being so sensitive. We are saying people need to be more charitable until they know first hand if a couple is using ABC.

You don’t have to like it but simply try to understand it. You might not take as much offense if you understand where the snide remarks are coming from.

 

[HouseArrest]

I’m not sure where it comes from. I know there is a traditionalist community near by with a 6 child minimum for attending. I assume that it is something like a secret handshake for them but I’ve never asked. We used to go there but my wife wanted to stop because she said she could feel their eyes burning holes through the back of her head.

I’ve never heard of such a place. It can’t truly be Catholic, can it?

 

[one_luv]

I’m just one person as well, but I know of many Catholics who are on ABC. I also work in the ER, and one of our screening questions is whether or not a woman is on ABC. We also ask…when registering a patient…what their faith is. Many are Catholic, and many are on on some form of ABC. There are also those who believe that you can use ABC and still be a “good Catholic”.

I work in a hospital that is part of CHE (Catholic Health East) systems, and we give out the emergency contraceptive pill to our rape victims. Yet…it is against Catholic teachings to do so and it sends a mixed message to Catholics.

One can choose to disregard the polls out there claiming that the majority of Catholics disagree with the Church on this matter. But just as it was stated about not making assumptions that people are using ABC, one should also not jump to conclusions that Catholics aren’t using it.

 

[mcrow]

But you’ve misunderstood the intent of the whole thread. The OP didn’t start this thread to discuss how many Catholics are actually using ABC. It was started to vent or rant at others that assume one is using ABC due to their small family size or not even having children. Its not a debate about people using ABC, I wish people would get that. Its about people making rash judgements about other people without knowing all the facts. Even if the one person sitting beside you in the pew on Sunday is in the small percentage of couples (as people seem so quick to point out) that suffer from infertility, the minute you assume or even say some kind of comment that implies that they use ABC, you may have insulted one of your fellow parishoners. Unless you know personally that the couple is using ABC, don’t assume ANYTHING and be charitable in your assumptions about your fellow Catholics.

No, Patricia, I don’t misunderstand the intent of the thread. You know, it’s not very enjoyable to see you continually talk down to people on this site. Perhaps you should examine yourself and the way you assume what people do and do not know. The fact is that the discussion of this thread has long since morphed into an all encompassing ABC discussion.

Also, if you’ve been making any attempt to read my posts you’d see that I’m judging nobody. I know there are people who have fertility issues and other health related problems or even other issues that prevent them from having children easily, if at all. It’s not about judging individual couples. It’s about connecting the dots about the community as a whole. I’ve never once looked at a couple with no kids (or only 1-2) and said to myself “I bet they use ABC”. Not once. I don’t judge people that way. However, I think as Catholics, it is our duty to point out , where appropriate, when the teachings of the church are not being followed. Granted, you’d never walk up to a stranger and say something, nor to a family member even. But if the subject came up in conversation, I feel it’s our duty to say something.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

I’ve never heard of such a place. It can’t truly be Catholic, can it?

No, just a traditionalist community that thinks of children as a blessing. I am sure they are very nice people but are simply marginalized by the community and seem weary of strangers. My wife doesn’t feel that we have enough children or that our children are well behaved enough to attend.

 

[mcrow]

Okay, I’ll pull the pin the this grenade and lob it into the discussion.

Why in the world do you think that “large families” of five or more children are the ideal?

There is no ideal family size. The ideal family size is the number of children God blesses you with, without interference from non-church approved methods of family planning. If you’re fertility dictates that you have no children (per God’s will) naturally, then that’s the ideal family size.

Of course, there’s always adoption which I find to be a great, Catholic thing to do for those who have fertility issues. Again, there will be no “ideal” family size. Adoption is expensive and takes time, so the number of children will depend on finances.and time.

I believe God decides what each couple’s ideal family size will be.

Right now it’s looking more and more like my ideal family size is 3 (Me, Wife, and Daughter), but God may bless us with another one before we’re done.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Well, isn’t that special!

I think that this thread should be required reading for people who want to judge others. There is a lot of pain and disappointment here. And, I might add, justified defiance.

I think it’s okay to bemoan the state of the Church, and talk about widespread ABC use, but you can’t tell who those people are unless they tell you.

Very true. As long as we are assuming the best about people we should also apply it to the judgmental Catholics. Remember they may feel swept aside and marginalized too. Alright, I’ll let you get back to it.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

No, just a traditionalist community that thinks of children as a blessing. I am sure they are very nice people but are simply marginalized by the community and seem weary of strangers. My wife doesn’t feel that we have enough children or that our children are well behaved enough to attend.

See there are two things here… Children are a blessing, the Catholic Church even goes as far as to say:

**2373 **Sacred Scripture and the Church’s traditional practice see in large families a sign of God’s blessing and the parents’ generosity.

but for each individual family, the ideal size, the one they need to strive for, is whatever God wants to send them, whether its 0 or 20. A couple called to 0, and remains at 0, is following God’s will better and being holier than a couple that has 2 and wants more and starts using methods that are not acceptable to force their family to be larger. Both the family with 20 striving to do God’s will and the family with 0 striving to do God’s will are equally part of the Catholic Church and should be equally welcomed by their fellow Catholics, marginalizing either of them would be wrong.

 

[PatriceA]

You don’t have to like it but simply try to understand it. You might not take as much offense if you understand where the snide remarks are coming from.

Tell me what I’m not understanding. Are you even trying to understand the judgements and assumptions and the line of thinking that follows those assumptions can be insulting to others that you have been quick to judge without having any personal knowledge of their situation in life?

I’m sorry, but I think you’re the one that needs to think before you continue to make assumptions about people you don’t know.

 

[PatriceA]

No, Patricia, I don’t misunderstand the intent of the thread. You know, it’s not very enjoyable to see you continually talk down to people on this site. Perhaps you should examine yourself and the way you assume what people do and do not know. The fact is that the discussion of this thread has long since morphed into an all encompassing ABC discussion.

Also, if you’ve been making any attempt to read my posts you’d see that I’m judging nobody. I know there are people who have fertility issues and other health related problems or even other issues that prevent them from having children easily, if at all. It’s not about judging individual couples. It’s about connecting the dots about the community as a whole. I’ve never once looked at a couple with no kids (or only 1-2) and said to myself “I bet they use ABC”. Not once. I don’t judge people that way. However, I think as Catholics, it is our duty to point out , where appropriate, when the teachings of the church are not being followed. Granted, you’d never walk up to a stranger and say something, nor to a family member even. But if the subject came up in conversation, I feel it’s our duty to say something.

Uh, my name is not Patricia. And your tone with me and with others on CAF pretty much sums up what why people leave this place. You’re very condescending yourself. Look in the mirror next time before you post.

 

[mcrow]

Uh, my name is not Patricia. And your tone with me and with others on CAF pretty much sums up what why people leave this place. You’re very condescending yourself. Look in the mirror next time before you post.

I’m not condescending. I’m not telling people what they do or don’t know or act like a know it all like you do.

You kept railing against me about judging people when that’s not the case. Even when I posted multiple times that is not the intent, you still said that I was judging people. My tone changes with people seem to think they are above me, or anyone else in a conversation.

I will not tolerate being talked to like a child and I don’t think that the others you do it to on this site appreciate it either.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

Anyone, What is ABC. Thanks!
Father of Twelve!

And no I don’t judge couples that have 1 or 2 kids. It’s not their fault no one told them how to french kiss:blush: or is it holding hands:shrug: maybe it’s the water I don’t know, wait my wife is asking me to run out and get some pickles, stay-puff marsmellows and a scope of dirt from the garden

God Bless!

 

[Consecrated]

Anyone, What is ABC. Thanks!
Father of Twelve!

And no I don’t judge couples that have 1 or 2 kids. It’s not their fault no one told them how to french kiss:blush: or is it holding hands:shrug: maybe it’s the water I don’t know, wait my wife is asking me to run out and get some pickles, stay-puff marsmellows and a scope of dirt from the garden

God Bless!

(in case you were seriously asking ABC in this context means Artificial Birth Control.)

 

[mcrow]

Anyone, What is ABC. Thanks!
Father of Twelve!

And no I don’t judge couples that have 1 or 2 kids. It’s not their fault no one told them how to french kiss:blush: or is it holding hands:shrug: maybe it’s the water I don’t know, wait my wife is asking me to run out and get some pickles, stay-puff marsmellows and a scope of dirt from the garden

God Bless!

Artificial Birth Control

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

(in case you were seriously asking ABC in this context means Artificial Birth Control.)

Thanks, I was serious on the question. Did not catch the acronym.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t think mcrow is judging.

Of course I have great sympathy for those with this situation. However, they do make up a very small minority of the population. This is why people look around churches and see very few large families and put two and two together.

NFP??? I doubt it.

Infertility? Again, I doubt it.

…I’m judging our community as a whole. Obviously, I cannot know who is using NFP or ABC or who is infertile so it’s beyond me to judge people.

The message is "I don’t know who you are, but I know there are some of you worthy of my judgement…I mean, c’mon, do the math: somebody here deserves condemnation! " I would argue that this is at the very least an imprudent direction of thought, and that more probably it isn’t a message that is allowed us at all, as it puts our own souls in peril.

We are allowed to judge one action as being morally allowed, another to be praiseworthy, and another to be wrong. How can we instruct and admonish each other, if we cannot do that? Yet we may not judge other persons as culpable or not, and that prohibition is not just on judging individuals. We may not make blanket judgments on groups, either. This is because the judgement of persons requires the ability to read hearts, which we do not have.

Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful. Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you; a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing, will be poured into your lap. For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you. Luke 6:36-38

We don’t need to guess who is doing what in order to instruct and admonish each other about what is right and what is wrong. If we don’t guess that this one is moral and that one is not, then we will neither pass over those who are “under the radar” nor wrongly lay blame where no blame belongs. If we do guess about the morality being exercised in secret by a group of people, we risk that we will fail in the command to have the Father’s own mercy and compassion for the faults of others. IMHO, we do best to stick to the actions, and not attempt to read the people for indirect “evidence” of wrongdoing, on that account.

Besides, just look at it from a practical point of view: What good does it do to survey our Church and guess what sins other people are committing behind closed doors? What good can it do to make that our business? Does it make us more compassionate, to think that we can discern who is just and who is pretending? Does imagining who could be hiding what change what is true about what is right and what is wrong? Can we not instruct on each other about right and wrong without this kind of conjecture? Since I don’t see what good it achieves, I don’t see how it is worth the risk.

 

[HouseArrest]

Ok, first things first.

I keep seeing people here saying “how can you know?” and bringing up people who are infertile or have trouble conceiving. Of course I have great sympathy for those with this situation. However, they do make up a very small minority of the population. This is why people look around churches and see very few large families and put two and two together.

If it’s not ABC the what it is? Why do we see fewer large families?

NFP??? I doubt it. I’ve never even heard of it until I visited this site. Heck, my wife never heard of it and she’s a cradle Catholic from a devout family. I don’t doubt that there Catholics who use NFP and the number may even be rising for all we know but it cannot be being used enough to explain the drops in large families.

Infertility? Again, I doubt it. Unless you have proof that there are higher rates of infertility, this does not explain it either.

I never judge anyone. It’s not like I go to church and see a couple with one kid and think to myself “I be they’re using condoms”. No, that’s not what this is about. This is about the Catholic community as a whole.

It is a problem. A bigger problem than many people here seem to think. Again, I feel terrible for those with fertility problems but I’m not judging people individually, I’m judging our community as a whole. Obviously, I cannot know who is using NFP or ABC or who is infertile so it’s beyond me to judge people.

Okay, so mcrow said judging our community as a whole - which you bolded, but then you did not bold the two times mcrow said he was not judging.

I still do not believe he meant or actually is judging as is not permitted - deciding who is and who is not going to hell. The rest of the post does not support that there is judging going on.

 

[AnneKristen]

First of all, my I please ask that anyone who would like to would pray that if it can be God’s will that He will allow my husband and I to be ready to have children - I say it this way because I have a health situation where it can be very dangerous to conceive and we have lost pregnancies in the past. Currently we’re also having a financial situation but that will pass, we know but would feel better having it fixed before trying to conceive(known as TTC) (we’re waiting for the doctors to tell us I’m well enough to TTC)

But I wanted to add, that it isn’t just the laity that are making this assumption. A Parish Priest at the Parish in the town we live in has on more than one occaision come out and told the congregation that he was upset that there wern’t any young men from the parish who were in seminary nor had there been any in the past 6 or 8 years (not a huge town - maybe 1500 -2000 families). He also came out and said that it was the fault of the families that were contracepting, because at this parish there were many families with no kids, some with one, less with two and an even lower number with more. I guess he would know if families are contracepting as he hears confessions, but when he gave this homily, there were some parishoners/families that got up and left. This particular Priest has also done a TV show for one of the Catholic TV Stations. But it really made some people quite angry-as there are families like mine where there is a health situation. I have no doubt a good percentage do contracept or use NFP as a form of contraception, but I don’t feel that trying to make parishoners feel guilty is going to help - more likely it will alienate - even those that aren’t contracepting but either have one or no children yet. I just wanted to make the point that it wasn’t just the laity. I think the stories like the one talking on this thread talking about the family who contracepted then saw they were wrong and lost a child to leukemia and longed for more are much more moving than trying to lay a guilt trip on someone. Shaking your fist at a Catholic and saying “you should be ashamed for contracepting…” is going to get very little positive response and will likely alienate more than help.
God Bless
AnneKristen

My Lord and My God,
My Love and My Life,
Don’t Leave me here all alone.

Cradel me in Your Arms,
Hold me in Your Heart,
Until You bring me Home.

 

[EasterJoy]

Okay, so mcrow said judging our community as a whole - which you bolded, but then you did not bold the two times mcrow said he was not judging.

I still do not believe he meant or actually is judging as is not permitted - deciding who is and who is not going to hell. The rest of the post does not support that there is judging going on.

I still submit there is no good achieved by making conjectures about who is and is not following moral law. Family size is not an indication about whether a couple follows moral law or not. I think we do best to speak the truth about what is right, what is praiseworthy, and what is wrong, and then after that mind our own business. The rest just causes trouble.