Family synod: Married couple ask Pope to clear up ‘confusion’ on contraception

[robertmidwest]

In 2008 CCCB fully supported HV in Liberating Potential.

“We encourage Catholics to deepen their understanding of the original text of this encyclical (www.vatican.va) in order to meditate on and to integrate in their life this important teaching.” ,

“If in conscience they deem that they should delay a birth for serious reasons because of physical, economic or psychological conditions, natural planning methods will allow them to manage their fertility, while respecting “the indivisible link between loving union and the procreative potential of intercourse in the context of married love.”13”

PDF:

ccbi-utoronto.ca/documents/bioethic_matters/CCCB_Liberating%20Potential_PastoralMessage_HV40thAnniv.pdf

Was there a sudden drop off of Cathulics using ABC after 2008? Really I don’t think it matters what the Candian bishops say.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Was there a sudden drop off of Cathulics using ABC after 2008? Really I don’t think it matters what the Candian bishops say.

Perhaps not but that doesn’t remove those Bishops culpability at the time of HV. Had the Canadian Bishops supported HV the initial result would be lower Mass attendance but then some of those who may have left could come back and practice their faith even stronger.

Our Faith is strongest when we truly assent to all of it in heart, mind and body.

 

[robertmidwest]

Had the Canadian Bishops supported HV the initial result would be lower Mass attendance.

I still think you are giving the Candian bishops too much credit. Even in the 1960’s and early 1970 did the bishops really hold that much power?

But I do agree with you that HV really divided the church, pushing a lot of people away.

So if the Canadian bishops had echoed HV then yes maybe some more members would have been pushed away.

 

[marymary1975]

This is a good explanation of Catholic teaching, but does not at all handle the outlier cases. On day 29 of a thirty day cycle, if infertility was determined to have started a week or more ago, there is zero percent chance of conception. Zero. That is why NFP works.

Additionally, there are people who have licitly become infertile (menopause, surgery, accident, whatever) and they and their partner will never become pregnant. Please explain why it’s so important for them to be “open to life” as you put it. What life are they being open to?

Basically because while at a human level conception after menopause is seen as as a period where conception is impossible, through the Church’s lenses even after menopause conception is not impossible,l: Abraham and Sarah conceived well after menopause the bible tells us, as well as in the case of St Elizabeth, the Virgin’s cousin. The church does not see it as impossible (for conception to happen) as God made it happen so while the chances may be 0.000000001% conception still may occur. Very similar is with infertility in general.

 

[PPeterson]

See how quickly they turn on one of their own.

 

[Vico]

Was there a sudden drop off of Cathulics using ABC after 2008? Really I don’t think it matters what the Candian bishops say.

What the bishops say is important to those Catholics the assent to the faith that know of the obligation to believe the moral and dogmatic teachings proposed for belief by the Magisterium.

There has been a decrease in Catholics. Where are the statistics for Catholics using birth control?

 

[PaulinVA]

Basically because while at a human level conception after menopause is seen as as a period where conception is impossible, through the Church’s lenses even after menopause conception is not impossible,l: Abraham and Sarah conceived well after menopause the bible tells us, as well as in the case of St Elizabeth, the Virgin’s cousin. The church does not see it as impossible (for conception to happen) as God made it happen so while the chances may be 0.000000001% conception still may occur. Very similar is with infertility in general.

With Jesus, the full Truth was revealed. The time of the prophets is over. There is no need for interventions such as occurred with Sarah and Elizabeth.

Basing a teaching that affects every married couple across all ages on the idea that God might want to intervene is not sound. I don’t think that is what the Church bases the teaching on. It must be something else.

 

[shelby_sun]

What the bishops say is important to those Catholics the assent to the faith that know of the obligation to believe the moral and dogmatic teachings proposed for belief by the Magisterium.

There has been a decrease in Catholics. Where are the statistics for Catholics using birth control?

I am sure there are not any official studies or statistics of the Church because “good” Catholics don’t use ABC, right? Or they simply don’t want to know, until now maybe. I would think this is question they might just ask the Catholics all over the world in the next year, and I think many will be shocked to find how high the number of Catholic who use ABC is.

I live in a large city where the public school system is horrible and scary. The non Catholic private schools cost from $15,000 to 26,000 a year. Catholic schools are much more affordable but certainly not cheap. People can simply not afford 5,6,9 children anymore, even sacrificing on nicer things. The 1 or 2 Catholic who used NFP even admit how it adds stress to their already very stressful lives.

 

[robertmidwest]

There has been a decrease in Catholics.

I am sorry I am a little confuse by your statement. When you say there has been a decrease in Catholics do you mean decrease in birth rate? Decrease in membership? What time time frame are you talking about?

My point is I doubt there was much change in 1968 from either the HV documnet or the Candian Bishops response. I doubt there was much change in numbers from the 2008 Canadian Bishops document. I don’t think any of these documents are being seriously looked at by the majority of lay Catholics. If someone is asking ‘Why so so many Catholics use ABC?’ no of these documents is the answer.

 

[Arandur]

I am sure there are not any official studies or statistics of the Church because “good” Catholics don’t use ABC, right? Or they simply don’t want to know, until now maybe. I would think this is question they might just ask the Catholics all over the world in the next year, and I think many will be shocked to find how high the number of Catholic who use ABC is.

I think you might be shocked to see how many faithful Catholics don’t use ABC. And how many may have used it in the past, but have repented and come to appreciate the Church’s teaching over the past decade or so, when we actually began to be taught the Faith again.

I’m in the latter group. So are my parents, my brother and his wife, and my sister.

I live in a large city where the public school system is horrible and scary. The non Catholic private schools cost from $15,000 to 26,000 a year. Catholic schools are much more affordable but certainly not cheap. People can simply not afford 5,6,9 children anymore, even sacrificing on nicer things.

There are ways.
One thing that I find very interesting is that, of ALL the large Catholic families I know, NOT ONE regrets it, and ALL have been able to provide well for their children. Hmmm…something about God’s Providence there for those who are faithful?

Or just that it’s really much more possible than people think?

The 1 or 2 Catholic who used NFP even admit how it adds stress to their already very stressful lives.

Have you ever tried it long enough for it to become a habit?

The NFP practitioners I know (and I know a lot more than 1 or 2) say quite the opposite. And the surveys and statistics bear this out, too: that the practitioners report much more positive results in their marriage, have lower stress, more intimacy, less incidence of divorce, etc.

 

[Arandur]

I am sure there are not any official studies or statistics of the Church because “good” Catholics don’t use ABC, right? Or they simply don’t want to know, until now maybe. I would think this is question they might just ask the Catholics all over the world in the next year, and I think many will be shocked to find how high the number of Catholic who use ABC is.

I think you might be shocked to see how many faithful Catholics don’t use ABC. And how many may have used it in the past, but have repented and come to appreciate the Church’s teaching over the past decade or so, when we actually began to be taught the Faith again.

I’m in the latter group. So are my parents, my brother and his wife, and my sister.

I live in a large city where the public school system is horrible and scary. The non Catholic private schools cost from $15,000 to 26,000 a year. Catholic schools are much more affordable but certainly not cheap. People can simply not afford 5,6,9 children anymore, even sacrificing on nicer things.

There are ways.
One thing that I find very interesting is that, of ALL the large Catholic families I know, NOT ONE regrets it, and ALL have been able to provide well for their children. Hmmm…something about God’s Providence there for those who are faithful?

Or just that it’s really much more possible than people think?

The 1 or 2 Catholic who used NFP even admit how it adds stress to their already very stressful lives.

Have you ever tried it long enough for it to become a habit?

The NFP practitioners I know (and I know a lot more than 1 or 2) say quite the opposite. And the surveys and statistics bear this out, too: that the practitioners report much more positive results in their marriage, have lower stress, more intimacy, less incidence of divorce, etc.

 

[clem456]

With Jesus, the full Truth was revealed. The time of the prophets is over. There is no need for interventions such as occurred with Sarah and Elizabeth.

Basing a teaching that affects every married couple across all ages on the idea that God might want to intervene is not sound. I don’t think that is what the Church bases the teaching on. It must be something else.

The procreative aspect does not depend on whether or not conception happens. Even a young fertile couple does not conceive every time, right?
It is the form of the act that is ordered to procreation. If the act ends in an un-natural way, or disordered way, then it is dis-ordered. The act should be ordered to completion.

In Theology of the Body JP2 points out that conjugal love is an image, actually a sacrament of, Christ’s giving of himself for the Church. This is based on Ephesians 5.

Consider that Christ does not give himself partway, he gives himself fully. And isn’t the cross is fertile in that way? In fact it is called the “tree of life”.
Contra-cepting is like Christ “sort of” dying on the cross, or that he meant to die, but not to the point of objectively shedding his blood.

 

[Tomdstone]

Plus don’t forget that it can’t be unitive unless it’s procreative.

If one of the partners is sterile, it can be unitive and not procreative.

 

[Tomdstone]

A lot of priests actually told people that using abc is all right–that’s the source if the confusion. .

Is that continuing even today?

 

[clem456]

If one of the partners is sterile, it can be unitive and not procreative.

The act is still open to procreation even if a partner has been or is sterile. The conjugal act should always be open to procreation.

 

[PaulinVA]

The act is still open to procreation even if a partner has been or is sterile. The conjugal act should always be open to procreation.

Makes no sense to me.

 

[JimG]

Open to procreation simply means that the marital act is completed in the natural way with no artificial barriers to conception. It goes without saying that many, probably most, marital acts, do not result in pregnancy (for example during a woman’s naturally infertile period, or even during pregnancy), but if the act is completed in the natural way it is open to procreation. It is ordered toward procreation.

 

[clem456]

Makes no sense to me.

• The fecundity of marriage

2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for **conjugal love naturally tends **to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"151 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage **act remain ordered per se **to the procreation of human life."152 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."153

Sex is an action. It involves real bodies and has a real form. The two little words “per se” indicate that the order to fecundity is intrinsic to the act itself (whether or not a child actually results from each act).

 

[PaulinVA]

Open to procreation simply means that the marital act is completed in the natural way with no artificial barriers to conception. It goes without saying that many, probably most, marital acts, do not result in pregnancy (for example during a woman’s naturally infertile period, or even during pregnancy), but the act is completed in the natural way it is open to procreation. It is ordered toward procreation.

Jim, thanks, I do know this. But clem456’s statement was a little hard to swallow. Sort of like saying that, even though I removed the engine from my car, you should not stand in front of it in case it starts up and runs you over.

 

[shelby_sun]

I was talking to a couple of priest today and one of them quoted St. Thomas Aquinas saying “we know infinitely less about God then we know of Him”, which to me means God still has things for us to learn or ways to see clearer.

I can never understand when people think we should live, understand, or see things the same way as we did 2000 years ago or when some of these things were decided. The world has evolved and people grow. Our understanding grows.

Both the priest told me yes, it is possible that there could be changes on this issue. I was basically called a liar the last time said this, but I will say it again. My husband wanted only two children, but we compromised on three. I discussed with my priest that we didn’t want anymore children and we would be using ABC. He told me that I has answer God calling for being open to children and that we needed to follow our conscious.

We send our children to Catholic school so they can live their faith day in and day out and we sacrifice to do so. That is how we honor God.