Fate of Eastern Catholic Churches if Orthodox are Reconciled

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Vico said:
5Loves, it started with this:

But as I posted, there are annulments given by the Orthodox tribunal and they are acceptable to the Catholic Church. (However the re-marriages are not.)

I think it has to be understood that marriage in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are sacraments that require the proper preparation to receive the Holy Spirit, and depending upon that receptivity, the sacrament has its sanctifying effect. Those that end in annulments were not truly sacramental.

So if reconcilled, a issue will likely be the Orthodox economy of allowing re-marriage.
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It’s “loaves” 😃

Vico, I don’t think that is off topic. I have long felt that the issue of marriage is a bigger problem as far as reconciliation Orthodox/Catholic, more than many other topics that are typically brought up.

My problem is the subsection that people who choose to petition a Latin Catholic tribunal to have their marriage examined, a marriage which has already been civilly dissolved, somehow suddenly discover they were never in a sacramental marriage. The idea that Catholics live in a state of uncertainty about whether or not the Church views their marriage as valid ("So according to Catholicism, Catholics are never really sure if they are married or not? ") … I’ve made my point on that a couple times, so as I said I won’t continue in that.
Vico said:
Those that end in annulments were not truly sacramental.
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This is a statement of fact. It’s the understanding, rather the misunderstanding about what that means which I think is at the root of a great deal of upset and confusion. We need to continue to do a better job of teaching on this.

The topic of how “remarriage” is handled differently in our two worlds, Catholic and Orthodox, is a topic I think is certainly on topic as far as Fate of Eastern Catholic Churches if Orthodox are Reconciled.
 
5Loaves said:
It’s “loaves” 😃

Vico, I don’t think that is off topic. I have long felt that the issue of marriage is a bigger problem as far as reconciliation Orthodox/Catholic, more than many other topics that are typically brought up.
…
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Sorry about the name, I seem to type love for loave, probably a typing habit.

It could be that people conceive of the marriage sacrament objectively only, meaning the ritual, in the same manner as a marriage license, rather than as taught by Our Lord when he said (Matt 19:6, 9):

“…So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” … He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.”

The western Church preserved the blessing and first Eucharist together as the nuptial ritual by adding the public promises from Roman civil practice.

In the east, since the marriage ritual became a matter of imperial edict, the Byzantine Church separated the marriage ritual from the celebration of the Eucharist to preserve the sacredness.

So in both regions for Christian marriage, there are two elements: the marriage ritual and sacredness of the Holy Spirit.
 
Greetings, everyone!!!

I’m a Melkite (re)convert from New Age/Pagan/Panentheist Theology. I’ve been lurking for a while now in the CAF forums and decided to give posting a try. I attend a Melkite church in Augusta, Ga. St Ignatios Of Antioch. This is my very first post.

I’m learning constantly about the One and True Faith and all its various manifestations (born Catholic but never practiced) and I grow spiritually with the aid of the Saints and the Holy Trinity every day. Happy to call myself an EC and a devotee of the Theotokos and The Church Fathers (they of blessed memory) plus Mary Of Egypt and Saint Anthony Of Egypt (Blessed be their memory as well).

May God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit guide my ways and thoughts now and till the day of my death
Be easy on me, now…😃

Anyway, I’ve been browsing through this long thread and thought I’d put in my two cents.

I personally look forward to BOTH lungs of Holy Mother Church working side-by-side properly. Probably unlikely right now, but there’s nothing wrong for being “cautiously optimistic” about it. Realistically, though, that may not be possibly until MANY years from now.

I personally say—keep BOTH rites intact and just call them different “aspects” of the same Eternal Truth. Call our side “Eastern” and the RC side “Western.”

ECs can keep the filoque as THEY see it and the RC can say THEIR version as they see it. Naive, maybe??? One can only wish…

The Immaculate Conception—I have no idea how that would be managed. Somebody will have to give way there on either side.

Purgatory----maybe a compromise??? AS FAR AS I KNOW, most Orthodox agree to SOME sort of “middle-ground” after death, call it “soul-sleep” or whatever else one calls it.
Maybe not agree on a specific PLACE known as “Purgatory” but agree on a “Purgatory-like” place where one goes???

Oh, well…

I just think it’s WAY overdue for BOTH Lungs to be working together.

Naive me??? Hopefully not…

Like I said, just my two cents.

Thanks to CAF and to everyone here…
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
Greetings, everyone!!!

I’m a Melkite (re)convert from New Age/Pagan/Panentheist Theology. I’ve been lurking for a while now in the CAF forums and decided to give posting a try. I attend a Melkite church in Augusta, Ga. St Ignatios Of Antioch. This is my very first post.

I’m learning constantly about the One and True Faith and all its various manifestations (born Catholic but never practiced) and I grow spiritually with the aid of the Saints and the Holy Trinity every day. Happy to call myself an EC and a devotee of the Theotokos and The Church Fathers (they of blessed memory) plus Mary Of Egypt and Saint Anthony Of Egypt (Blessed be their memory as well).

May God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit guide my ways and thoughts now and till the day of my death
Be easy on me, now…😃

Anyway, I’ve been browsing through this long thread and thought I’d put in my two cents.

I personally look forward to BOTH lungs of Holy Mother Church working side-by-side properly. Probably unlikely right now, but there’s nothing wrong for being “cautiously optimistic” about it. Realistically, though, that may not be possibly until MANY years from now.

I personally say—keep BOTH rites intact and just call them different “aspects” of the same Eternal Truth. Call our side “Eastern” and the RC side “Western.”

ECs can keep the filoque as THEY see it and the RC can say THEIR version as they see it. Naive, maybe??? One can only wish…

The Immaculate Conception—I have no idea how that would be managed. Somebody will have to give way there on either side.

Purgatory----maybe a compromise??? AS FAR AS I KNOW, most Orthodox agree to SOME sort of “middle-ground” after death, call it “soul-sleep” or whatever else one calls it.
Maybe not agree on a specific PLACE known as “Purgatory” but agree on a “Purgatory-like” place where one goes???

Oh, well…

I just think it’s WAY overdue for BOTH Lungs to be working together.

Naive me??? Hopefully not…

Like I said, just my two cents.

Thanks to CAF and to everyone here…
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Maybe you are right and an agreement on unity of EO and RC can be reached. But I don;t see it. First of all, many Orthodox just don;t like the RCC, especially the Serbs who were hurt by the Ustase in WWII. And I don;t see them accepting papal infallibility and the supreme universal jurisdiction of the Pope. Not only that, but many of them will tell you that the Catholic Sacraments, including Baptism, are null and void, and statues violate the Commandment against graven images. And I don;t see Roman Catholics budging on the issue of papal infallibility or the Immaculate Conception. And the RCC will not do away with their statues. So there is an impasse.
Take a look at some of the more simple issues, such as a common date for Easter. If there were a real desire for reunion and a common date for Easter on the part of the RCC, why would they not just accept the date for Easter as set by the Eastern Orthodox Church?
 
Actually, I’m not Greek Orthodox but “Oxios” should be spelled “Axios” which means “worthy.”

Alex
 
Alexander_Roman said:
Actually, I’m not Greek Orthodox but “Oxios” should be spelled “Axios” which means “worthy.”

Alex
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Ohh thank you! Knew that, however in the Greek and the Latin… the ‘a’ and the ‘O’ are interchangeable. it was a name given to my grandfather,
8 generations ago, who was raised in a monastary, after he moved out into the ‘world’ It is a big name in Bask Majorca, and Basgue spain as well as Puerto Rico from where my Grandparents were born.

So Oxios is the Latin form of the Greek Word Axios… also means accepted truth, axiom.

Now the vesel the incense is carried in is called an ‘axios’

and in 1966 the Greek and Roman Rite Church met together and prayed 'Acclamations of Oxios"

Growing up in the early sixties, I heard a lot about my name, but learned even more reading the bible.

III. THE PATHWAY TO GOD’S GLORY IN OUR LIFE
Turn to Exodus 33. Moses is on the mountain with God. God is showing him how to experience God’s glory in his life and in the life of the people of Israel.
FOUR WORDS DESCRIBING GOD’S PATHWAY TO GLORY

Stiff-necked (v.5) Ex 33:5 NKJV) "For the LORD had said to Moses, "Say to the children of Israel , ‘You are a stiff-necked people. I could come up into your midst in one moment and consume you. Now therefore, take off your ornaments, that I may know what to do to you.’

If you read vv. 3-6 – you find that God is basically calling all us from being unworthy. **We know the word worthy relates to “worship” in the Bible. It also has to do with “weight.” **

It is the N.T. Greek word – Oxios.

Its background has to do with the sustenance of a coin. Coins back then were minted without the technology of today.
*
In those days just the handling of coins could wear it thin."

When a person would buy something their coins would be weighed and given their worth.

Often they would be worth less because of their weight but not worthless (with no value).

*The idea of glory is a reinvestment of who we are, with the idea of becoming everything God wants for us.

To be refilled with glory does not require that you have a major sin in your life.
Often times it is just the wear and tear of life, which causes a thinness to come in.
God is calling us from anything that is unworthy (that which is not up to the full potential God has for our lives.) *

God is calling us to Him to come away from everything that is shallow and shabby in comparison. God is calling us to come and be renewed.
Our problem is not walking in God’s glory or even not having a passion for it but failing to perceive where thinness has come in.
Many things crop up in our lives that are unworthy to God.

The only way back to worthiness is to kneel in His presence and first confess that which is unworthy.

Used in the N.T.
searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/frequency.cgi?number=514&book=mt&translation=nsn
appropriate, deserve, deserving, fitting, keeping, unworthy, worthy

Mt 3:8 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
"Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;
Mt 10:10 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support.
Mt 10:11 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
"And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.
Mt 10:13 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
"If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
Mt 10:37 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Mt 10:38 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Mt 22:8 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
"Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.

God bless,
John
 
sidbrown said:
Maybe you are right and an agreement on unity of EO and RC can be reached. But I don;t see it. First of all, many Orthodox just don;t like the RCC, especially the Serbs who were hurt by the Ustase in WWII. And I don;t see them accepting papal infallibility and the supreme universal jurisdiction of the Pope. Not only that, but many of them will tell you that the Catholic Sacraments, including Baptism, are null and void, and statues violate the Commandment against graven images. And I don;t see Roman Catholics budging on the issue of papal infallibility or the Immaculate Conception. And the RCC will not do away with their statues. So there is an impasse.
Take a look at some of the more simple issues, such as a common date for Easter. If there were a real desire for reunion and a common date for Easter on the part of the RCC, why would they not just accept the date for Easter as set by the Eastern Orthodox Church?
Click to expand...
I do agree with you about the papal infallibility question, SidBrown. There would be a lot of “blood” spilled over that if the question of papal infallibility ever really came up for serious consideration. Would not want to be in the room if it were to happen.

Like I said, it’s probably naive of me to think this, but one can only dream.

One thing—Orthodox DO consider their ENTIRE church(es) to be infallible, not any single person within it (them). Maybe if the Pope were to be declared as representing all the churches ENTIRELY as One, THEN one could “solve” the infalliblity question???
One can only hope, ultimately…
But I have to ultimately agree with you. Too sad.😦
 
trophybearer said:
Yeah, but it’s spelled Axios. It means “worthy”.
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in the Latin, and other Eastern rite Catholic Church’s say the byzantine, It is Oxios, same thing its like a tomanto or Tamatoe thing. same thing though.

now you guys want to tell me about my own last personal name?
Thanks but no thanks!

axios. or oxios same word one greek, one the Latinized form of the Greek.

malankara.net/diocese.php?id=168

Archbishop Mar Ivanios having made the Profession of Faith before the august assembly of the Bishops, priests and laymen and amidst the acclamations of Oxios (a customary hymn for the occasion) was enthroned as the Metropolitan Archbishop of Trivandrum and the Hierarchical head of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church.
See ost 382 Greek N.T. Word ‘Oxios’

God bless,
John
 
ljubim said:
I like mardukm’s answer 🙂

The whole idea of reunification gets me sooo excited!!! Imagine what we could do together that we haven’t been able to do for a thousand years!!

My dream is that the official unification will take place in 2054, exactly 1000 years after the schism started. 🙂 How wonderful would that be?
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No way…I want to still be alive when it happens. Hopefully MUCH sooner.
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
I do agree with you about the papal infallibility question, SidBrown. There would be a lot of “blood” spilled over that if the question of papal infallibility ever really came up for serious consideration. Would not want to be in the room if it were to happen.

Like I said, it’s probably naive of me to think this, but one can only dream.

One thing—Orthodox DO consider their ENTIRE church(es) to be infallible, not any single person within it (them). Maybe if the Pope were to be declared as representing all the churches ENTIRELY as One, THEN one could “solve” the infalliblity question???
One can only hope, ultimately…
But I have to ultimately agree with you. Too sad.😦
Click to expand...
There is something good and decent about hoping for the best and it would really be great if what you say would come about.
I like your attitude and what you have said about reunion and hope that you are right.
However, if I look at it realistically, I can see problems, such as infallibility of the Pope and his supreme universal jurisdiction. For another example, take the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. An Orthodox priest was leading a procession and asked the Catholic Franciscan priest if he could close the side door to the Church which was a distraction for the Orthodox. The Franciscan priest refused and they argued loadly and then punched each other and a bloody melee ensued sending several clergy to the hospital. In another case, several Orthodox priests cleaned out and landscaped a very small area by the side of the Church which was in a terrible mess. Now come the Catholic priests who say that you did not get our agreement to do that, so take everything down and put the place in the mess that it was before. This was reported in the Catholic newspaper: Our Sunday Visitor. Now if the two sides RC and EO can’t agree on whether a door should be open or closed, or whether a mess should be cleaned up, then what are we supposed to think about it?
 
One cannot generalize from isolated events to general. The Devil wins sometimes, but the battle is not over.
 
sidbrown said:
There is something good and decent about hoping for the best and it would really be great if what you say would come about.
I like your attitude and what you have said about reunion and hope that you are right.
However, if I look at it realistically, I can see problems, such as infallibility of the Pope and his supreme universal jurisdiction. For another example, take the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. An Orthodox priest was leading a procession and asked the Catholic Franciscan priest if he could close the side door to the Church which was a distraction for the Orthodox. The Franciscan priest refused and they argued loadly and then punched each other and a bloody melee ensued sending several clergy to the hospital. In another case, several Orthodox priests cleaned out and landscaped a very small area by the side of the Church which was in a terrible mess. Now come the Catholic priests who say that you did not get our agreement to do that, so take everything down and put the place in the mess that it was before. This was reported in the Catholic newspaper: Our Sunday Visitor. Now if the two sides RC and EO can’t agree on whether a door should be open or closed, or whether a mess should be cleaned up, then what are we supposed to think about it?
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Hello Sideburn,
This is nothing but GOSSIP!! passed on and on, no reference just a story to boost your anti Roman Catholcism, and stain the Church.

We are responsible for every we word we utter. I suppose all those 'present did nothing to stop this? White lies and half truths are the hardest to defend!!

Two priest fighting over an open door??? Send us the proof, the actual article !!!

Find the article or delete the post!

I’ve heard these things before… it’s not proper to pass these stories on without the url or proper reference for the incident.
One guy here passed a story like that about a catholic priest killing an infant with full immersion…
by the time I dug up the ‘story’ it was a breakaway church from a breakaway church of the Roman Catholic Church, and then it was done, to a baby born two months premature @ the insistence of the Mother against the ministers warnings…
Bottom line. The article said a break off from The RCC… but the anti Catholics just see ‘Catholic Church’ and run off at the mouth!

From ‘The Catholic Way’ Faith for Living Today, Bishop Donald W. Wuerl

Half Truths Are Also Sins,
pg. 337:
The Truth is of course, dishonored by a lie.** A lie is an assertion**, in a context in which genuine communication is reasonably expected, of something that one considers to be false. Lying is wrong. It is forbidden by the eighth commandment.
Many times, however, another level of falsehood touches our lives. Someone once described a gossip as a person who will never tell a lie if a HALF -TRUTH will do as much damage. Gossip, innuendo, false inferences, all, like cancer, eat away at the fabric of Truth, trust and ultimately the human community. Since we are obliged to bear witness to the truth, we must also be attentive to the source of what we claim to be true…
The offenses against truth include false witness and perjury, as well as outright lies, and the misuse of the truth that causes harm to individuals and to society . It is a small step in terms of person’s attitude to move from gossip, to white lies, to bearing false witness in serious matters, to perjury. At the heart of these steps is the same disregard for the Truth.
We have the duty to seek truth and speak truth. We must be honest with ourselves and others

“An opponent makes use of the most effective of his weapons: Gossip! A Warrior of light is a victim of this; He doesn’t know where this blow came from, and cannot prove the gossip is false. GOSSIP: Condemns without trial.” Paolo Cohelo

God bless you,
john
 
sidbrown said:
There is something good and decent about hoping for the best and it would really be great if what you say would come about.
I like your attitude and what you have said about reunion and hope that you are right.
However, if I look at it realistically, I can see problems, such as infallibility of the Pope and his supreme universal jurisdiction. For another example, take the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. An Orthodox priest was leading a procession and asked the Catholic Franciscan priest if he could close the side door to the Church which was a distraction for the Orthodox. The Franciscan priest refused and they argued loadly and then punched each other and a bloody melee ensued sending several clergy to the hospital. In another case, several Orthodox priests cleaned out and landscaped a very small area by the side of the Church which was in a terrible mess. Now come the Catholic priests who say that you did not get our agreement to do that, so take everything down and put the place in the mess that it was before. This was reported in the Catholic newspaper: Our Sunday Visitor. Now if the two sides RC and EO can’t agree on whether a door should be open or closed, or whether a mess should be cleaned up, then what are we supposed to think about it?
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Hello Sid,
still up to the same old hate bias tricks eh Sid??? liarr!!!

Let’s go back to post #260 , Pg 18, on this topic one of your other erroneous stoties about Roman Catholic Priests!!!
Originally Posted by sidbrown
See: “Death of girl at Baptism ruled homicide”
“Sade Victoria Omotola died September 20 while on life support at Children’s Hospital, where had been since blood began streaming from her nose and her face turned blue during her baptism at Imani Temple, a parish church that had broken away from the Catholic Church. Father August Griffin had immersed the baby’s head three times into a baptismal font.”
Click to expand...
catholicculture.org/news/…fm?recnum=2346

hi Sid,
It is a terrible accident, but,
READ AGAIN! Your anti Roman Catholic Bias is glaring!
You are a gossip monger.

Ever hear of a Roman Catholic Church called ‘Imani Temple?’
It’s a a breakaway Church of a Breakaway Church of the RCC.

why post anything, you just lie anyway! In my opinion you ought to be rebuked by somebody here at Catholic Answer Forums, or Just thrown off entirely!

Have a nice day in Spite of yourself!
Code: 
   God help you,
         John
 
John_oxios said:
Hello Sideburn,
This is nothing but GOSSIP!! passed on and on, no reference just a story to boost your anti Roman Catholcism, and stain the Church.
…Two priest fighting over an open door???
“An opponent makes use of the most effective of his weapons: Gossip! A Warrior of light is a victim of this; He doesn’t know where this blow came from, and cannot prove the gossip is false. GOSSIP: Condemns without trial.” Paolo Cohelo
Click to expand...
John_oxios said:
Hello Sid,
still up to the same old hate bias tricks eh Sid??? liarr!!!..
You are a gossip monger.
Click to expand...
Well, I am sorry, but here are the facts:
“Jerusalem, Israel: Greek Orthodox and Franciscan priests got into a fist fight over church door.”
naijanet.com/news/source/2004/sep/28/1007.html
highbeam.com/doc/1P1-99673796.html
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,133660,00.html
beliefnet.com/News/2004/10/Greek-Orthodox-Franciscan-Priests-Brawl-At-Basilica.aspx
 
John_oxios said:
Hello Sid,
still up to the same old hate bias tricks eh Sid??? liarr!!!

Let’s go back to post #260 , Pg 18, on this topic one of your other erroneous stoties about Roman Catholic Priests!!!

catholicculture.org/news/…fm?recnum=2346

hi Sid,
It is a terrible accident, but,
READ AGAIN! Your anti Roman Catholic Bias is glaring!
You are a gossip monger.

Ever hear of a Roman Catholic Church called ‘Imani Temple?’
It’s a a breakaway Church of a Breakaway Church of the RCC.

why post anything, you just lie anyway! In my opinion you ought to be rebuked by somebody here at Catholic Answer Forums, or Just thrown off entirely!

Have a nice day in Spite of yourself!
Code: 
   God help you,
         John
Click to expand...
Are you feeling okay? :confused:
 
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