Fate of Eastern Catholic Churches if Orthodox are Reconciled

[sidbrown]

Actually, the Orthodox Churches were never “united with Rome” to start with, so there can be no “reunification.” .

I am somewhat surprised to learn that before 1054, the Orthodox Churches were not united with Rome? According to my history book, the Eastern and Western Churches were united as one church until 1054 when the papal legate and Roman Catholic Cardinal Humbertus decided to break away from the Orthodox Church by laying down the bull of excommunication on the high altar of the Greek Church of the Hagia Sophia?
Some of the reasons listed in the bull of the papal legate for the excommunication were:

1. married priests
   2.denial of the filioque
2. priests growing beards.
   To me, these seem like rather petty reasons for laying down a bull of excommunication and breaking away from the Orthodox Church?

 

[Hesychios]

I am somewhat surprised to learn that before 1054, the Orthodox Churches were not united with Rome? …

Cluny was correct when he wrote that.

What the Papacy has been arguing for is a corporate unification (like a merger) that never existed before. It would be a new model of church governance. something like a conglomerate.

To his credit Cardinal Ratzinger has said that in his opinion something to the effect that the east should not have to accept a Papacy that did not exist in the first millennium. If the Papacy stuck to that position going forward it would probably ultimately result in a repudiation of Universal Jurisdiction claims, and one huge dogmatic barrier to communion between our confessions would vaporize.

We could and should all be strategic partners in evangelizing this fallen world, always cooperating, not competing.

 

[sidbrown]

Cluny was correct when he wrote that…

I don’t see it.
First of all intercommunion was allowed, was it not?
Secondly, if there were no union between East and West, why then the excommunications of 1054? Excommunications imply that you are a member of the Church from which you are being excommunicated.

 

[Hesychios]

I don’t see it.
First of all intercommunion was allowed, was it not?

Yes!
Although the Popes had been stricken from the dyptichs by that time, communion between the churches was still possible.

Secondly, if there were no union between East and West, why then the excommunications of 1054? Excommunications imply that you are a member of the Church from which you are being excommunicated.

Excommunication implies that you were previously sharing communion and are no longer sharing communion.

In fact, there were some local churches that tried to maintain communion with both Rome and Constantinople for as long as possible. A single organization could not have had parts of it going one way, parts another and parts going both ways. They were a collection of local organizations in partnership because they shared a common belief system. This explains why the schism took so long to finalize, individual local churches which had their own leadership in place had to decide which way they were going to go, and they were hoping the crises would blow over.

I think one has to really define what unity means.

The United Nations is supposed to be united, but in what way? What does it control, exactly?

Are the USA and China one country under one leader in New York? … or are they each sovereign states that have complex relationships with other sovereign states?

The ecclesiastical model of the early church is what we are theoretically striving to restore when we say ‘re-unify’, but it seems there is no clear consensus as to what that original ‘unity’ actually was.

One thing is certain, it was not a single organization run like General Electric with a single human CEO.

 

[JohnVIII]

What to do with the parallel EO jurisdictions set up alongside OO jurisdictions.

For example, in the see Alexandria. Should there be two separate jurisdictions, or just one jurisdiction,

“Should” there be - NO “Will” there be - YES

 

[Aramis]

I don’t see it.
First of all intercommunion was allowed, was it not?
Secondly, if there were no union between East and West, why then the excommunications of 1054? Excommunications imply that you are a member of the Church from which you are being excommunicated.

Intercommunion was practically non-extant, since more than 90% of people never went more than 50 miles from home. Most would be worried about whether or not the priest in the next village would commune them, let alone in a foreign port. And, if you did travel, you carried letters or codewords to be admitted.

As a major group, only Jews (and later Muslims, and later still, crusaders) routinely traveled. And for Muslims and Crusaders, it was a once-in-a-lifetime journey. Jews and Muslims were the only ones where the entire population tried to make pilgrimages to the middle east.

Even Romans didn’t all wind up far from Rome… some Legionnaires never got more than 500 miles outside Rome. Others wound up 5000+ miles… but the legions were not the universal conscription of certain Greek city-states.

 

[DavidKays]

I am somewhat surprised to learn that before 1054, the Orthodox Churches were not united with Rome? According to my history book, the Eastern and Western Churches were united as one church until 1054 when the papal legate and Roman Catholic Cardinal Humbertus decided to break away from the Orthodox Church by laying down the bull of excommunication on the high altar of the Greek Church of the Hagia Sophia?
Some of the reasons listed in the bull of the papal legate for the excommunication were:

1. married priests
   2.denial of the filioque
2. priests growing beards.
   To me, these seem like rather petty reasons for laying down a bull of excommunication and breaking away from the Orthodox Church?

Hi Sidbrown! You are very close to God. Permit me to explain the Orthodox position if I may. I am a Greek Orthodox Christian and my perspectives may put some light and clarity to these discussions. Basically the Churches are united. Since both were founded by the original 12 then their coexistence is therefore willed by God. The Churches were never and I repeat never disunited. You cannot sever what God has joined together. East and West are liken to a marriage relationship with the West liken more to a woman or more precise like a wife and the East more liken to a man or more precise like a husband. So the West has more feminmine qualities and the East more masquiline qualilties. Basically the 2 Churches began like a marriage relationship! What happened is the woman began to make too many demands and the husband took offence. Marital problems have now arisen and because of the unfortunate heated arguements of 1054A.D. the marriage relationship took a strain and therefore came a seperation. Couples do seperate! Now the East and the West are raising their children on their own. They have become single parents and you know what happens when this senerio occurs. Alot of bad trouble. OK. Children need both their parents if they are growing up to face the world. So this marital problem needs marital counseling and in the last 100 years we have seen much progress in this area. The real basic problem in this marriage is this. Too much demands from the woman! Now her husband will not have any say in the raising of her children. Rome took away the Orthodox’s priviledge in the say of the government of the Church. For the first 1000 years the Orthodox did have a say. The husband and wife ran the Church together and all the decisions in the Ecumenical Councils were determined from both their participation. In the year 1054A.D. that was taken away when the woman did not want her husband but demanded that he submit to her. What can he do? She is not acting in accordance to what this marriage started out with. This then has led us to this hopefully temperory seperation which today can be healed with this suggestion. Pope John Paul II suggested that he is willing to have the same relationship with the Orthodox as the Church of Rome had in the beginning with the East. What he is really saying is he wants the marriage to be back to what it was. For Rome to do this only one thing is necessary. The Orthodox must have her rightful claim in the decisions of governing the Church! Rome must give way and give back to the Orthodox this authority so denied them this past 1000 years. The Orthodox had this right taken from them. This is why they are hurting! They had that right in the first 1000 years. Do you see! Pope John Paul II has officially apologized to the Orthodox for the actions of Rome and wants this marriage back to what it was. Therefore if this happens the Orthodox will then have equal authority alongside Rome in governing the Church. This is what she had anyway in the first 1000 years! The announcement must come from Rome and it will be the Pope who will determine this. I am certain someday His Holiness will allow the Orthodox equal authority. This will mean that Eastern Catholics by and large were a mistake and must under the agreements settled return themselves under the direction of the East and therefore with their Orthodox brothers and sisters have a say in the government of the whole Church. The Eastern Catholics must return back to the Orthodox and then the whole Eastern Church will be given back its authority in the Church. The wife has apologized to her husband. The husband must have his rightful claim in this so that the marriage may work and this my friend will please the Almighty so much for what God has joined together let man not put assunder that is apart. It is coming! Soon this marriage will be back again and this time it will be stronger then ever! God Bless!

 

[JohnVIII]

Cluny;5744043:

Actually, the Orthodox Churches were never “united with Rome” to start with, so there can be no “reunification.”

I am somewhat surprised to learn that before 1054, the Orthodox Churches were not united with Rome? According to my history book, the Eastern and Western Churches were united as one church until 1054 when the papal legate and Roman Catholic Cardinal Humbertus decided to break away from the Orthodox Church by laying down the bull of excommunication on the high altar of the Greek Church of the Hagia Sophia?
Some of the reasons listed in the bull of the papal legate for the excommunication were:

1. married priests
   2.denial of the filioque
2. priests growing beards.
   To me, these seem like rather petty reasons for laying down a bull of excommunication and breaking away from the Orthodox Church?

Unity can take many forms. I think the kind of unity Brother [user]Cluny[/user] had in mind was where a church submits to Rome or where there is some unique consequence if communion is broken from Rome, different than breaking communion with some other church, as if there could never be any valid reason for breaking communion with Rome.

Someone had said that the Eastern Churches were in communion with Rome for the 1st 1000 years, and not in communion for the last 1000 years. But the truth is that for that 1st 1000 years communion between Rome and Constantinople was broken many times; and if you add up the time, Rome and Constantinople were actually only in communion for about 500 years - that’s all!

 

[sidbrown]

Yes!
Although the Popes had been stricken from the dyptichs by that time, communion between the churches was still possible.

Excommunication implies that you were previously sharing communion and are no longer sharing communion.

In fact, there were some local churches that tried to maintain communion with both Rome and Constantinople for as long as possible. A single organization could not have had parts of it going one way, parts another and parts going both ways. They were a collection of local organizations in partnership because they shared a common belief system. This explains why the schism took so long to finalize, individual local churches which had their own leadership in place had to decide which way they were going to go, and they were hoping the crises would blow over.

I think one has to really define what unity means.

The United Nations is supposed to be united, but in what way? What does it control, exactly?

Are the USA and China one country under one leader in New York? … or are they each sovereign states that have complex relationships with other sovereign states?

The ecclesiastical model of the early church is what we are theoretically striving to restore when we say ‘re-unify’, but it seems there is no clear consensus as to what that original ‘unity’ actually was.

One thing is certain, it was not a single organization run like General Electric with a single human CEO.

If intercommunion is allowed between the two Churches, then many people would say that there is union.

 

[sidbrown]

Hi Sidbrown! You are very close to God. Permit me to explain the Orthodox position if I may. I am a Greek Orthodox Christian and my perspectives may put some light and clarity to these discussions. Basically the Churches are united. Since both were founded by the original 12 then their coexistence is therefore willed by God. The Churches were never and I repeat never disunited. You cannot sever what God has joined together. East and West are liken to a marriage relationship with the West liken more to a woman or more precise like a wife and the East more liken to a man or more precise like a husband. So the West has more feminmine qualities and the East more masquiline qualilties. Basically the 2 Churches began like a marriage relationship! What happened is the woman began to make too many demands and the husband took offence. Marital problems have now arisen and because of the unfortunate heated arguements of 1054A.D. the marriage relationship took a strain and therefore came a seperation. Couples do seperate! Now the East and the West are raising their children on their own. They have become single parents and you know what happens when this senerio occurs. Alot of bad trouble. OK. Children need both their parents if they are growing up to face the world. So this marital problem needs marital counseling and in the last 100 years we have seen much progress in this area. The real basic problem in this marriage is this. Too much demands from the woman! Now her husband will not have any say in the raising of her children. Rome took away the Orthodox’s priviledge in the say of the government of the Church. For the first 1000 years the Orthodox did have a say. The husband and wife ran the Church together and all the decisions in the Ecumenical Councils were determined from both their participation. In the year 1054A.D. that was taken away when the woman did not want her husband but demanded that he submit to her. What can he do? She is not acting in accordance to what this marriage started out with. This then has led us to this hopefully temperory seperation which today can be healed with this suggestion. Pope John Paul II suggested that he is willing to have the same relationship with the Orthodox as the Church of Rome had in the beginning with the East. What he is really saying is he wants the marriage to be back to what it was. For Rome to do this only one thing is necessary. The Orthodox must have her rightful claim in the decisions of governing the Church! Rome must give way and give back to the Orthodox this authority so denied them this past 1000 years. The Orthodox had this right taken from them. This is why they are hurting! They had that right in the first 1000 years. Do you see! Pope John Paul II has officially apologized to the Orthodox for the actions of Rome and wants this marriage back to what it was. Therefore if this happens the Orthodox will then have equal authority alongside Rome in governing the Church. This is what she had anyway in the first 1000 years! The announcement must come from Rome and it will be the Pope who will determine this. I am certain someday His Holiness will allow the Orthodox equal authority. This will mean that Eastern Catholics by and large were a mistake and must under the agreements settled return themselves under the direction of the East and therefore with their Orthodox brothers and sisters have a say in the government of the whole Church. The Eastern Catholics must return back to the Orthodox and then the whole Eastern Church will be given back its authority in the Church. The wife has apologized to her husband. The husband must have his rightful claim in this so that the marriage may work and this my friend will please the Almighty so much for what God has joined together let man not put assunder that is apart. It is coming! Soon this marriage will be back again and this time it will be stronger then ever! God Bless!

Your point of view is quite optimistic. Unfortunately, I see some Orthodox with a more pessimistic attitude. They are seriously opposed to any dealings with Rome, and believe that the Pope is a heretic and that the Catholic baptism is invalid, as well as the other Catholic Sacraments are all invalid and lacking any sanctifying grace. And they oppose dialog with the Pope along the current lines treating the Pope as a brother, but dialog only with the goal of conversion of the Pope and all Catholics to the Orthodox Church. See for example this interview on the upcoming visit of the Pope to Cyprus.
Met. Athanasios of Lemesou :
"“For us Orthodox, the Pope is a heretic, outside of the Church, and, hence, not even a bishop”.

“He [the Pope] has been outside of the Church for ten centuries now, he is not a canonical bishop, he has no relation whatsoever to the reality of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ. It is one thing to receive him as a canonical bishop and quite another to speak to him as [being] a heterodox in order to reveal to him the truth of the Orthodox Faith and Tradition.”

“Dialogue is not a bad thing when it is carried out based on correct presuppositions. However, it is wrong to say to these people that we recognize them as a Church, that we recognize the Pope as a Bishop, as our brother in Christ in the priesthood and in [the] faith. I cannot accept this, because we are lying [when we say this], since all of the Holy Fathers teach exactly the opposite. Papism is a heresy and the source of many other heresies which trouble the entire world today.”
impantokratoros.gr/visit_pope-cyprus.en.aspx

 

[DavidKays]

Your point of view is quite optimistic. Unfortunately, I see some Orthodox with a more pessimistic attitude. They are seriously opposed to any dealings with Rome, and believe that the Pope is a heretic and that the Catholic baptism is invalid, as well as the other Catholic Sacraments are all invalid and lacking any sanctifying grace. And they oppose dialog with the Pope along the current lines treating the Pope as a brother, but dialog only with the goal of conversion of the Pope and all Catholics to the Orthodox Church. See for example this interview on the upcoming visit of the Pope to Cyprus.
Met. Athanasios of Lemesou :
"“For us Orthodox, the Pope is a heretic, outside of the Church, and, hence, not even a bishop”.

“He [the Pope] has been outside of the Church for ten centuries now, he is not a canonical bishop, he has no relation whatsoever to the reality of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ. It is one thing to receive him as a canonical bishop and quite another to speak to him as [being] a heterodox in order to reveal to him the truth of the Orthodox Faith and Tradition.”

“Dialogue is not a bad thing when it is carried out based on correct presuppositions. However, it is wrong to say to these people that we recognize them as a Church, that we recognize the Pope as a Bishop, as our brother in Christ in the priesthood and in [the] faith. I cannot accept this, because we are lying [when we say this], since all of the Holy Fathers teach exactly the opposite. Papism is a heresy and the source of many other heresies which trouble the entire world today.”
impantokratoros.gr/visit_pope-cyprus.en.aspx

I know what you mean. However you only face it on these forums. I face it everyday in my Church. I am an Orthodox Christian who believes in the Papacy and the Roman Catholic Church. Not only I believe it I also defend it. Those Orthodox who make statements like they do are really speaking through their hurts. I for one believe that one day all of the Orthodox will change and allow Rome to be part of their lives. Really how can the Orthodox say things like the Pope is a heretic. I honestly believe because of our lack of dialogue in the last 1000 years have cost us too much of this. Why don't they ( the Orthodox ) visit some of the Catholic churches around them. Get to know them. I really believe it is an insult to God to think they way they do regarding Rome. So my Brother hurt me! Get over it! I have 2 brothers at home growing up and if I behave like what the Orthodox do to their Catholic brethren I probably never have them as brothers again. I learned to forgive and ask forgiveness from my brothers and why can't we ( the Orthodox and Catholics ) do the same. You know it is quite simple to know what to do and yet we always find ways to make it more difficult. I hope that all my Orthodox brethren will listen and accept the Catholics as part of themselves and finally bury this infernal squabble that has weakened the Church. I cannot understand how a Church can do this to another and yet believes she is obeying the gospel! I wonder if God cannot wait for these people to die of old age so that mayby just mayby the next generation will understand humility to restore this life necessary relationship. I believe in my heart that the next generation will accomplish this. All we have to do is to plant the seeds to begin it! God Bless!

 

[trophybearer]

I know what you mean. However you only face it on these forums. I face it everyday in my Church. I am an Orthodox Christian who believes in the Papacy and the Roman Catholic Church. Not only I believe it I also defend it. Those Orthodox who make statements like they do are really speaking through their hurts. I for one believe that one day all of the Orthodox will change and allow Rome to be part of their lives. Really how can the Orthodox say things like the Pope is a heretic. I honestly believe because of our lack of dialogue in the last 1000 years have cost us too much of this. Why don’t they ( the Orthodox ) visit some of the Catholic churches around them. Get to know them. I really believe it is an insult to God to think they way they do regarding Rome. So my Brother hurt me! Get over it! I have 2 brothers at home growing up and if I behave like what the Orthodox do to their Catholic brethren I probably never have them as brothers again. I learned to forgive and ask forgiveness from my brothers and why can’t we ( the Orthodox and Catholics ) do the same. You know it is quite simple to know what to do and yet we always find ways to make it more difficult. I hope that all my Orthodox brethren will listen and accept the Catholics as part of themselves and finally bury this infernal squabble that has weakened the Church. I cannot understand how a Church can do this to another and yet believes she is obeying the gospel! I wonder if God cannot wait for these people to die of old age so that mayby just mayby the next generation will understand humility to restore this life necessary relationship. I believe in my heart that the next generation will accomplish this. All we have to do is to plant the seeds to begin it! God Bless!

I think it’s an insult to Orthodoxy to call yourself Orthodox while thinking and saying the things you do. May I ask why you still identify as Orthodox if you feel this way?

 

[DavidKays]

I think it’s an insult to Orthodoxy to call yourself Orthodox while thinking and saying the things you do. May I ask why you still identify as Orthodox if you feel this way?

Whoever you are I suggest you ask God because it was He who did this not only for me but for an entire Orthodox congregation. Please allow me to explain. And by the way thanks for the compliment! I don't ever been called an insult before! About 100 years ago many Antiochian Orthodox came to Charlottetown, P.E.I., to settle and live. It was very difficult for them to have their own Church and then only an Orthodox priest from Boston, Mass., will come over once or twice a year to minister to them. It was then a kindly High Church of England priest invited them to come and worship at St.Peter's Cathedral. St.Peter's Cathedral was an extremely High Church with all the vast pomp and ceremonial ways of the Church of Rome. We were not exactly Roman Catholic but we did worship like them. We had the Mass daily, celebrated the Stations and prayed the Rosary. We had Adoration, Benediction, and all our Masses were celebrated facing East. We carried Jesus in the Reserved Sacrament and had Latin Masses sung on Ascension Day. We had the Smells and the Bells ( that made the Low-Angilcans quite angry, I couldn't figure them out! ) and at almost every Mass on Sunday almost 10-15 Altar boys who assisted the Priests in almost every duty possibly. We were the envy of every Catholic on the Island because those St.Peterites were doing it better! The only difference between us and the Catholics were that our Priests were married. When I was there the Priest offered the Mass for His Holiness the Pope, the Ecumenical Patriarch, and the Archbishop of Canterbury. That is why I have a close relationship to the Holy Father because we uphold him in prayer at every Mass. And to let all the Catholics know in these forums my Church always gave the Pope first perference! The Orthodox Priest from Boston gave his blessings for us to attend St.Peter's and I must say it was a wonderful gift God gave to us. We all learn how to worship like a Catholic! I must say the Catholic Way is very beautiful and an expression of God that every Orthodox should appreciate! I did as well as all the Orthodox there. We now have our own Orthodox Church that was formed 15 years ago named St.Peter and Paul Antiochian Orthodox Church. The reason I am Greek Orthodox is that my family wished us to remain Orthodox and invited the Greek Orthodox priest from Halifax, N.S,, to come over and baptise me. I was the first person on P.E.I. to be ever baptised by an Orthodox priest on the Island. That is why I am Greek Orthodox. So do you think I am still an insult to Orthodoxy! Blame it on God for it was Him who put us in a Church that celebrated the Catholic way. I for one am thankful for it taught me alot how Catholics pray and that is why I appreciate and defend them. I wish more Orthodox could have experience what we did. Then the Orthodox may stop complaining about Rome and appreciate what God does for the Catholic Church. So next time sir before you label people seek first the facts and understand well what God can do. I do not regret ever learning to pray the Catholic way. It is for this reason I am somewhat an authority of both East and West and can interchange whatever I want to. When I use to drive to a fast food restaurant they will always say `` do want that in a combo```. So that is what I see myself as. A combo filled with the richness of both East and West, Orthodox and Catholic! God Bless!

 

[Hesychios]

Your point of view is quite optimistic. Unfortunately, I see some Orthodox with a more pessimistic attitude. They are seriously opposed to any dealings with Rome, and believe that the Pope is a heretic and that the Catholic baptism is invalid, as well as the other Catholic Sacraments are all invalid and lacking any sanctifying grace. And they oppose dialog with the Pope along the current lines treating the Pope as a brother, but dialog only with the goal of conversion of the Pope and all Catholics to the Orthodox Church. See for example this interview on the upcoming visit of the Pope to Cyprus.
Met. Athanasios of Lemesou : …

I cannot open the link here in China, but I am not surprised by the comment, quite frankly.

Cyprus was the very first church to be protected from the aggrandizement of other expansive churches. Specifically both the Metropolitans of Antioch and Alexandria claimed suzerainty over the church on the island, and the gathered fathers of the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus recognized and declared the church autocephalous to protect it.

In spite of this specific act of an ecumenical council, later crusaders overturned the local government and absorbed the church into the Latin Catholic church by force (putting it under the Metropolitan at Rome), and kept it that way from 1191 to 1570AD, making the population Greek Catholics by law and imposing acceptance of the filioque.

Today we can see that the ancient apostolic Christian community of Cyprus has overwhelmingly rejected this arrangement which had been imposed upon them in violation of an ecumenical council. Today the Latin Catholic church on Cyprus numbers 4 parishes under the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, and there are also nine Maronite parishes on the island, in total about 1 % of the population. Four hundred years of Greek Catholicism has disappeared and I am not surprised they want nothing more to do with it.

 

[trophybearer]

Whoever you are I suggest you ask God because it was He who did this not only for me but for an entire Orthodox congregation. Please allow me to explain. And by the way thanks for the compliment! I don’t ever been called an insult before! About 100 years ago many Antiochian Orthodox came to Charlottetown, P.E.I., to settle and live. It was very difficult for them to have their own Church and then only an Orthodox priest from Boston, Mass., will come over once or twice a year to minister to them. It was then a kindly High Church of England priest invited them to come and worship at St.Peter’s Cathedral. St.Peter’s Cathedral was an extremely High Church with all the vast pomp and ceremonial ways of the Church of Rome. We were not exactly Roman Catholic but we did worship like them. We had the Mass daily, celebrated the Stations and prayed the Rosary. We had Adoration, Benediction, and all our Masses were celebrated facing East. We carried Jesus in the Reserved Sacrament and had Latin Masses sung on Ascension Day. We had the Smells and the Bells ( that made the Low-Angilcans quite angry, I couldn’t figure them out! ) and at almost every Mass on Sunday almost 10-15 Altar boys who assisted the Priests in almost every duty possibly. We were the envy of every Catholic on the Island because those St.Peterites were doing it better! The only difference between us and the Catholics were that our Priests were married. When I was there the Priest offered the Mass for His Holiness the Pope, the Ecumenical Patriarch, and the Archbishop of Canterbury. That is why I have a close relationship to the Holy Father because we uphold him in prayer at every Mass. And to let all the Catholics know in these forums my Church always gave the Pope first perference! The Orthodox Priest from Boston gave his blessings for us to attend St.Peter’s and I must say it was a wonderful gift God gave to us. We all learn how to worship like a Catholic! I must say the Catholic Way is very beautiful and an expression of God that every Orthodox should appreciate! I did as well as all the Orthodox there. We now have our own Orthodox Church that was formed 15 years ago named St.Peter and Paul Antiochian Orthodox Church. The reason I am Greek Orthodox is that my family wished us to remain Orthodox and invited the Greek Orthodox priest from Halifax, N.S, to come over and baptise me. I was the first person on P.E.I. to be ever baptised by an Orthodox priest on the Island. That is why I am Greek Orthodox. So do you think I am still an insult to Orthodoxy! Blame it on God for it was Him who put us in a Church that celebrated the Catholic way. I for one am thankful for it taught me alot how Catholics pray and that is why I appreciate and defend them. I wish more Orthodox could have experience what we did. Then the Orthodox may stop complaining about Rome and appreciate what God does for the Catholic Church. So next time sir before you label people seek first the facts and understand well what God can do. I do not regret ever learning to pray the Catholic way. It is for this reason I am somewhat an authority of both East and West and can interchange whatever I want to. When I use to drive to a fast food restaurant they will always say `` do want that in a combo```. So that is what I see myself as. A combo filled with the richness of both East and West, Orthodox and Catholic! God Bless!

Why don’t you just become Catholic then? To be clear, I never called you an insult to Orthodoxy. I don’t understand why you don’t just become Roman Catholic since you seemed so enthused by Western worship and Western theological “developments”. The way you speak it seems like you might be happier there. I’m not suprised you have problems in your church if this is the sort of stuff you go around telling people.

 

[Hesychios]

… Please allow me to explain. …

So based upon your explanation here it seems to me that you were latinized in a high church Anglican congregation and prefer to call yourself Orthodox because the family at one time insisted.

I too am familiar with the glorious worship of the Latin church. I think that when it is done properly it is wonderful. But anyone will tell you (I have seen many Catholics write this) that it is not just the liturgy, but the Truth behind it. Anyone can fall in love with a beautiful liturgy.

If your understanding is Latin, you are Latin. Follow your heart, I think it’s OK to be true to your understanding. No one here will fault you.

My entire family is Catholic, from my late parents (and ancestors) to my grandchildren and I love them all dearly. It’s OK to be Catholic and they would be happy to have you. There is a poster named Monica here who recently did just that (less than two years ago).

It’s not OK to be Catholic and publicly proclaim yourself Orthodox, it’s just not intellectually honest.

 

[Hesychios]

If intercommunion is allowed between the two Churches, then many people would say that there is union.

Yes, that would be union according to an Orthodox understanding.

Rome could be one of several ‘self-governed’ churches in communion with one another.

 

[josephdaniel29]

There is a poster named Monica here who recently did just that (less than two years ago).

If you are talking about SingleMomMonica she has returned to the Orthodox Church. We speak occasionally on another forum.

In Christ,
Joe

 

[DavidKays]

So based upon your explanation here it seems to me that you were latinized in a high church Anglican congregation and prefer to call yourself Orthodox because the family at one time insisted.

I too am familiar with the glorious worship of the Latin church. I think that when it is done properly it is wonderful. But anyone will tell you (I have seen many Catholics write this) that it is not just the liturgy, but the Truth behind it. Anyone can fall in love with a beautiful liturgy.

If your understanding is Latin, you are Latin. Follow your heart, I think it’s OK to be true to your understanding. No one here will fault you.

My entire family is Catholic, from my late parents (and ancestors) to my grandchildren and I love them all dearly. It’s OK to be Catholic and they would be happy to have you. There is a poster named Monica here who recently did just that (less than two years ago).

It’s not OK to be Catholic and publicly proclaim yourself Orthodox, it’s just not intellectually honest.

Sir I am born into one family and I do not join another like the marines. Ok. I have a Greek Orthodox baptism. I am born into this family. I do not switch to become Catholic. You are born into a family! You don't join them like you do the marines! Now are you telling me that I have to give up my Orthodox baptism to enter a Catholic Church. Now you got to be kidding! What I am saying and it is to you Orthodox that really are the problem, is that Orthodox and Catholics need not switch to each other. You belong to each other. Now if you can`t understand that, fine! I can understand the way the Orthodox think. But for you to think the Catholics are not in the right way is the reason I have engage to fight this. I do not for any reason believe what most Orthodox do. You want to call me a heretic, fine!, I do not mind if the truth needs to come out! And the truth is not that I have been latinized whatever the heck that means but the truth that my Catholic brothers and sisters are as part of me as I am of them. I do not have to be Catholic to do that. And now I am going to suggest this. If someday I will meet a devout catholic girl and we decide to enter into a marriage relationship with her and because she has great love for her own church and I decide that we will go together in her church I will never give up my Orthodox baptism! I may even because the Church of Rome allows permament deacons to enter this ministry in the Catholic Church with my Catholic wife and still remain Orthodox. I am sure His Holiness Benedict XVI will give me permission to remain Orthodox and become a permament deacon in the catholic church. You know you can love something without giving up what you are. I love the Orthodox Church. What bothers me is their attitudes. God Bless!

 

[Nine_Two]

Sir I am born into one family and I do not join another like the marines. Ok. I have a Greek Orthodox baptism. I am born into this family. I do not switch to become Catholic. You are born into a family! You don’t join them like you do the marines! Now are you telling me that I have to give up my Orthodox baptism to enter a Catholic Church. Now you got to be kidding! What I am saying and it is to you Orthodox that really are the problem, is that Orthodox and Catholics need not switch to each other. You belong to each other. Now if you can`t understand that, fine! I can understand the way the Orthodox think. But for you to think the Catholics are not in the right way is the reason I have engage to fight this. I do not for any reason believe what most Orthodox do. You want to call me a heretic, fine!, I do not mind if the truth needs to come out! And the truth is not that I have been latinized whatever the heck that means but the truth that my Catholic brothers and sisters are as part of me as I am of them. I do not have to be Catholic to do that. And now I am going to suggest this. If someday I will meet a devout catholic girl and we decide to enter into a marriage relationship with her and because she has great love for her own church and I decide that we will go together in her church I will never give up my Orthodox baptism! I may even because the Church of Rome allows permament deacons to enter this ministry in the Catholic Church with my Catholic wife and still remain Orthodox. I am sure His Holiness Benedict XVI will give me permission to remain Orthodox and become a permament deacon in the catholic church. You know you can love something without giving up what you are. I love the Orthodox Church. What bothers me is their attitudes. God Bless!

He is saying that your thoughts and beliefs are those of a Catholic. Religion may be something you are born into, but it is not something one is bound to beyond what you allow yourself to be bound to.