Fate of Mary death or assumption

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billcu1

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Ok did Mary die or not. I have read that Pius XII said no and he also said yes. They speak of the assumption. I have heard you die at baptism and then it’s finished later. We are called to assumption if there is no sin you rise. Mary’s body was take and daffodils left there in place. This is a confusing one.
 
That’s right, we don’t exactly know, but some Church Doctor’s opinion is that she died before assumption.
 
Whether she died or not we don’t know, and it doesn’t matter. But she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven. That we know for sure.

I believe that she died before being taken to heaven.
 
billcu1 said:
Ok did Mary die or not. I have read that Pius XII said no and he also said yes. They speak of the assumption. I have heard you die at baptism and then it’s finished later. We are called to assumption if there is no sin you rise. Mary’s body was take and daffodils left there in place. This is a confusing one.
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St. John Damascene’s account explicitly mentions her death and burial.

Guess who was late for that one too.
 
Except that he was about 600 years too late to have been there too.
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Of course. It’s just that the tradition at that time in the East had already been that she had died prior to assumption.

The reality is that the Church is silent on the question and permits both opinions to be held, and normally, that should shut down all arguments. I don’t know why people still do.
 
The dormition of Mary was a frequent subject of art in Eastern Catholic traditions. If you google it you’ll see some paintings of Mary’s death.
 
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Why would they say something different now? So if she died she was then assumed ? What is assumed? Vanishing ? Art shows her going into the air. Of course they say no sin no death. but we die and they say will be raised.
 
Really, show me where it says that. Because all I can find is: “we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.” It explicitly does NOT say whether she died or not.
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"It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death…

… Asthe most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him…

…held that the Virgin Mary’s flesh had remained incorrupt-for it is wrong to believe that her body has seen corruption-because it was really united again to her soul and, together with it…

…Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death, since it would have redounded to his own dishonor to have her virginal flesh, from which he himself had assumed flesh, reduced to dust."
 
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Both are part of the unanimous tradition–I’ve never seen either opposed. She died and then was assumed. The latter part was subject to a definitive confirmation by the Pope in 1950. There’s no definitive judgment concerning her death, but I’ve never seen a Pope, Council, Father or other Saint say she didn’t die–many say she did. If anything, this seems to be a relatively recent hypothesis based only on the fact that Pius XII did not define it as so (although he does reference her death elsewhere in the Constitution as already noted).

It may have been left out of the recent definition simply because the death of a human being may not be a matter of revealed truth or the supernatural order.
 
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Our Blessed Mother experienced a physical death:

“held that the Virgin Mary’s flesh had remained incorrupt-for it is wrong to believe that her body has seen corruption-because it was really united again to her soul and, together with it, crowned with great glory in the heavenly courts.” - APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION OF POPE PIUS XII, MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS, DEFINING THE DOGMA OF THE ASSUMPTION

Apostolic Tradition has transmitted that Mary died physically and immediately her soul was united to her Divine Son, and, thereafter, her body was assumed into Heaven, and there in the accompany of the Angels and Saints, her soul was re-infused into her body. Hence, “because [her body] was really united again to her soul”! How else would her body be united again to her soul if not from the separation of the two at physical death?!

Everyone in Christ dies with Christ. This is the most intimate blessing all the Saints will experience, especially the Saint of Saints! For Our Blessed Mother not to die physically with Christ would imply some lack of intimacy and separation of the Redemptive Paschal Mystery in which the Co-Redeemer took part of in every aspect there was, most notably the death of her Divine Son!
 
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Genesis315 said:
There’s no definitive judgment concerning her death
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As promulgated by a Council, or a Pope speaking ex cathedra? MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS clearly reveals the physical death of Our Lady. But, Apostolic Tradition need not to be expounded by a Council or infallible promulgation by a Pope for a Revealed Dogma to be true; otherwise, the Dogma of the Trinity was lacking for the first three centuries, and, Our Lady being Co-Redeemer and Mediatrix of graces is mere speculation. 😀
 
Deacon,
The dogmatic definition itself leaves the question of Her death open, but Pius XII definitely quotes patristic sources that refer to Her death. Her death is assumed (haha) in the text even if not in the dogma.
So are we bound? Apparently not. But the Pope still taught it. It’s also proclaimed by our iconography- St Mary’s Major being a prime example.
 
Personally I find it very fitting that Our Lady would have died so that She could share in the resurrection of Her Son. She is the perfect proto-type of the Church… all of us must die and then rise again.
 
“Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death." - CCC, 960

“n your Dormition you did not leave the world”, seems to put this issue at rest, does it not?! 🤐

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dochawk said:
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anon90438963:
If you google it you’ll see some paintings of Mary’s death.
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I’m assuming that you’re finding icons, not paintings. Big difference (and no, this isn’t nitpicking–the difference is important).

hawk
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There are abundant examples of her death in non-iconographic, western art.

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In this prayer revealed by God to blessed Bridget, the glorious Virgin Mary is devoutly and beautifully praised for her holy conception and infancy, for all her virtuous acts and labors, for the great sorrows of her whole life, for her most holy death and assumption:

“Be glad, my Lady, O Virgin Mary. For in that most light death of yours, your soul was embraced by the power of God; and he, as a watchful father, protected it from all adversity. Then it was that God the Father subjected to your power all things created. With honor, God the Son placed you, his most worthy Mother, beside himself on a most lofty seat. And the Holy Spirit, in bringing you to his glorious kingdom as a virgin betrothed to himself, did wonderfully exalt you.

Rejoice eternally, my Lady, O Virgin Mary. For some days after your death, your body lay entombed in its sepulchre until, with honor and through the power of God, it stood linked anew to your soul. Exult to the full, O Mother of God, O glorious Lady, O Virgin Mary. You merited to see your body revived after your death and assumed with your soul into heaven amidst honor from the angels. You acknowledged that your glorious Son was God with a human nature; and with exultant joy, you saw that he is the most just judge of all and the rewarder of good works.”
 
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