Fate of Mary death or assumption

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She died and was assumed. Has there ever happened to be any mention of the beatific vision here? Normally we would see that, but we would not be assumed.
 
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Has Hildegard of Bidgen ever happened to say anything about this? She too is a Dr. of the church.
 
Oh there was a big stink about that too for some time. Icons were considered heresy or something. I can’t remember its been so long since I looked into that.
 
What proof do we have of the assumption? What is this theory based on? I have a very hard time believing this doctrine, that her physical body was assumed into heaven. It sounds extremely fantastical and far-fetched. Perhaps someone can help me understand the basis for believing this.
 
returninghome31 said:
What proof do we have of the assumption? What is this theory based on? I have a very hard time believing this doctrine, that her physical body was assumed into heaven. It sounds extremely fantastical and far-fetched. Perhaps someone can help me understand the basis for believing this.
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Where are her remains? The remains of the Apostles have all been identified and preserved in Catholic Churches. What about Mary’s remains? Where are they?
 
Hmm but that’s not exactly proof either. I would love to believe this. I really do want to believe it, but a missing body isn’t proof of it being assumed into heaven. I don’t know.
 
What is ‘proof’? If you saw her being assumed into Heaven, you could just as easily convince yourself you were hallucinating.

Hence, the virtue of Faith.
 
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Some sort of historical data, perhaps. Or an eyewitness account at least. Is there any of that? At least a little something to make sense of it somewhat. A missing body could mean a number of things. Again, I don’t know.
 
While her death was not included in the dogmatic proclamation, it is untrue to say that the Church does not teach her death. No, it has not been dogmatically defined, but many teachings of the Church have not been so defined because they do not need to be. Maybe someday it will be, if the recent idea that she did not die takes off and takes on a life of its own.

Who knows? People could become so fixated on the idea that she had to have died that we lose sight of the fact that her death and assumption are a participation in Christ’s death and Resurrection, just as we hope for ourselves someday. This belief could become the source of some as-yet-unimagined heresy and the Church would be forced to respond. The Church is rightfully cautious about issuing dogmatic proclamations.

Meanwhile, her death is taught in the liturgy, it was taught by the Church Fathers, it has been held dear in the universal tradition of the Church, though that tradition has faded somewhat in the west.
 
Dusts off the Deacons flame suit and puts it back on hm.
 
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twf said:
Deacon,
The dogmatic definition itself leaves the question of Her death open, but Pius XII definitely quotes patristic sources that refer to Her death. Her death is assumed (haha) in the text even if not in the dogma.
So are we bound? Apparently not. But the Pope still taught it. It’s also proclaimed by our iconography- St Mary’s Major being a prime example.
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I’ve seen plenty of artistic representations of the Assumption that quite clearly show Our Lady still alive - as was the prophet Elijah when he was assumed into heaven, which bears thinking about.

All Western, of course. I have no strong view either way.
 
Western and, I think, relatively recent.

Of course, if she was first raised from the dead, the art could simply be skipping over the death / resurrection and showing only the subsequent assumption. Much like depictions of the Lord’s ascension.
 
twf said:
Western and, I think, relatively recent.

Of course, if she was first raised from the dead, the art could simply be skipping over the death / resurrection and showing only the subsequent assumption. Much like depictions of the Lord’s ascension.
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I don’t pretend to be an expert on art history, but offhand I cannot think of a single representation by a Western artist - of any era - of Mary as either dying or dead. The opposite, of course, is true of Christ.

Odd if it is such an abundantly clear and constant teaching that she did indeed die.
 
There is a very prominent depiction of her dormition at St Mary’s Major- the most important Marian church in the Latin Church.
 
twf said:
There is a very prominent depiction of her dormition at St Mary’s Major- the most important Marian church in the Latin Church.
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Not exactly an overwhelming refutation of the larger point I was making though.
 
billcu1 said:
Ok did Mary die or not. I have read that Pius XII said no and he also said yes. They speak of the assumption. I have heard you die at baptism and then it’s finished later. We are called to assumption if there is no sin you rise. Mary’s body was take and daffodils left there in place. This is a confusing one.
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It is not a matter of either-or. The Assumption of Mary happened some time after her death.

The Virgin Mary died like the rest of us.
At that point her soul entered Heaven but her body was left in the world and was buried as usual.
Some time later God gave Mary the gift of the Assumption.

What this means is that Mary’s body was taken to Heaven and made alive again so that she could be in Heaven body and soul, as all the saved will be after the Last Judgment.
 
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