Father Groeschel and the Charismatic movement

[Panis_Angelicas]

Now who is beating a dead horse?

There are already threads about hand holding and about the posture and gestures of reverence for receiving Holy Communion. Feel free to resurrect those threads if you choose to continue on those topics. All the answers are already there. No need to re-hash it on this thread.

What we’re saying here is that there are only two approved Masses by the Latin Rite Church, the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Latin Mass.

Some refer to a “Charismatic style Mass,” which differs from the N.O. and the TLM.

The Church doesn’t seem to have made provisions nor adaptations for the gestures and goings on that characterize these Masses. While they may be abuses in some instances, they are at best liturgical innovations.

As the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II stated in April of 1980, liturgical innovations bewilder the faithful. Catholics don’t even seem to understand what the Mass is any more. Gestures and postures with centuries-old traditional meaning are called into question.

Today, some Catholics seem to be looking for a spiritual pep rally or entertainment. They want to leave Mass feeling emotionally charged, energized…But the deeper significance of the rubrics and gestures are being tossed out like a baby with the bathwater. To experience God interiorly while showing outward decorum is now passe. And what’s being added in the way of gestures has no tradition nor a deeper meaning at all; it’s just whatever makes you feel good gestures.

This is the third time I’ve listed them, yet certain posters keep wanting to turn this thread around to discuss the already-discussed topics of hand-holding & communion posture.

The liturgical innovations are: body swaying, arm raising, hand waiving, spontaneous outbursts of acclamations, prayers, or songs, liturgical dancing…

Are these approved gestures, or are they not?

*Is it ok to interject them into the Mass at will? Why or why not? *

 

[mtr01]

Mysty101:

Some people are very selective and subjective as to how they apply the rules.

Holding hands is a distraction, but kneeling in the aisle to receive Holy Communion when there are no provisions is not.

Go figure

Kneeling to receive communion is a properly approved posture according to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[91.] In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them”.[177] Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.

Also to expand on what Panis had to say about liturgical innovations:

40.] Nevertheless, from the fact that the liturgical celebration obviously entails activity, it does not follow that everyone must necessarily have something concrete to do beyond the actions and gestures, as if a certain specific liturgical ministry must necessarily be given to the individuals to be carried out by them. Instead, catechetical instruction should strive diligently to correct those widespread superficial notions and practices often seen in recent years in this regard, and ever to instill anew in all of Christ’s faithful that sense of deep wonder before the greatness of the mystery of faith that is the Eucharist, in whose celebration the Church is forever passing from what is obsolete into newness of life: “in novitatem a vetustate”.[101]

 

[Mysty101]

mtr01:

Kneeling to receive communion is a properly approved posture according to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

But if there are no provisions it can be disruptive, distracting or even a tripping hazard–that is what I said.

Let’s not do this again

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_121.gif

 

[gnome]

ok I’ll get back to the thread subject here… did anyone listen
to Fr. Groeschel yesterday on Catholic Answers? I didn’t listen to the whole thing but it’s interesting to hear him talked about after the accident, while on the hospital bed, he prayed the Rosary because he felt much hope and peace…

 

[1_Maria]

gnome:

ok I’ll get back to the thread subject here… did anyone listen
to Fr. Groeschel yesterday on Catholic Answers? I didn’t listen to the whole thing but it’s interesting to hear him talked about after the accident, while on the hospital bed, he prayed the Rosary because he felt much hope and peace…

Thanks, Gnome, yes, my family did. Fr. Groeschel’s love for Mary and the Rosary is so very beautiful to see.

He also prays the Divine Mercy chaplet.

What a great example he is for the rest of us.

Maria

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Panis Angelicas:

The liturgical innovations are: body swaying, arm raising, hand waiving, spontaneous outbursts of acclamations, prayers, or songs, liturgical dancing…

Are these approved gestures, or are they not?

*Is it ok to interject them into the Mass at will? Why or why not? *

Sorry to have hijacked this thread! I’ll repost this question in the Liturgy forum.
Yes, I love Fr. Groeschel ~ who doesn’t?!!! He is so gentle and soft-spoken, yet unwaivering in conviction.
I don’t have cable, so am unable to watch EWTN.
I have seen him offering Mass on EWTN eons ago (long before his accident).
I’ve never seen anything at his Masses, like the innovations I cited above!!!

 

[1_Maria]

Panis Angelicas:

I’ve never seen anything at his Masses, like the innovations I cited above!!!

Nor have I and I’ve seen numerous Masses celebrated by him.

He would never even consider doing anything that detracted from the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Word.

Maria

 

[mark_a]

itsjustdave1988:

Do the anti-hand-holding folks here equally rail against the sign of the cross after receiving Holy Communion? If not, why not?

I never learned or did this as a kid, but started doing it because I seemed to be the only one not doing it.

Also, in the communion line, some bow slightly as the person in front of them receives communion. Some, after receiving communion, take a couple of steps to the side and bow.

Which is correct?

 

[Makerteacher]

Here’s the website for our conference. We also have picture albums and newsletters with reports of our events and links to other sites–the NY site has even more links and articles. We have Diocesean and national liasons.
siconference.com/.

SuZ, I enjoyed browsing through your website. Thanks so much for sharing the links! I am always excited to find ever more active Catholics operating all over the world.
Hi from Dallas!

 

[Makerteacher]

1 Maria:

I do have a question for you about it.

I’m thinking that any true discipline coming from a Bishop would pastorally be based on when he, the Bishop, saw that the particular CCR community was mature enough to loving accept the correction(s) knowing that the Bishop speaks for the Church.
Is this how it works? I’m asking because I’m wondering why some groups who have ‘catchers’ assigned to the Masses to assist those who ‘rest’ or ‘get slain’ and fall in the aisles during Mass are not disciplined or corrected in some way.

This is a major turnoff for those of us who cannot abide seeing the focus that rightly belongs to the Eucharist and the liturgy of the Word, as well as to the priest as alter Christus, being shifted to the fallers and those who do tongues that drown out the words of the priest.

I’m certain almost all of us already know this is NOT true CCR.
I just think that hearing it from you would be so helpful to those of us who have witnessed it.

Maria

Hi Maria
I have only attended two Masses specifically labeled as a healing MASS in my twenty years in the Renewal. In both cases, we had a regular Novus Ordo Mass, with specific prayers inserted as allowed in the GIRM for healing, then FOLLOWED by a healing service which began immediately after the closing hymn. So, I have never seen the abuse you mention. I too would find people being caught as they fall very distracting in a Mass. That activity is more properly permitted in a prayer service. My bishop would have a cow if we did that.

 

[Makerteacher]

mtr01:

What I’m talking about are liturgical innovations. Things that have made their way into the Mass without proper approval, such as hand holding during the Our Father, clapping along with the hymns, being slain in the spirit, or what have you are not additions to the Mass which have been approved by the proper authority. Now, I’ve no problem with people who want to do these kinds of things in prayer meetings or healing services, or whatever. They just don’t belong in the Mass.

I would agree that these things do not belong in our Masses. The only exception I would make is that, often, during a Mass for children, they children will spontaneously begin to clap if the hymn is particularly rhythmic. This is natural behavior for children, IMHO. I have seen this happen many, many times and have never seen a priest tell them to stop it. :clapping: I don’t think it is a problem.

 

[Makerteacher]

1 Maria:

Can anyone give me links that show the Pope’s approval to tongues, falling and catching, resting, or any innovations for that matter that occur during some charismatic ‘Masses’?

I have an acquaintance who insists that the Pope does approve of these things during Mass and she is quite upset at me because I don’t believe the Holy Spirit would have any part of diverting our attention from the Liturgy that comes to us through the Church.

Maria

I do not personally believe such formal approval exists, Maria. Those things are al fine at a prayer service or gathering outside of the Mass, but not during Mass, where our focus is to be always on The Real Presence of Jesus Christ. :>)

 

[Makerteacher]

Panis Angelicas:

You’re mixing apples and oranges if you’re going to try to equate kneeling for Holy Communion with body swaying, arm waving, hand holding, clapping, revelling, laughter, spontaneous outbursts from the community (in native tongue or babble, take your pick) during the Mass.

Body swaying? I rock my babies in Mass, is that irreverent? I don’t think so. I am also very musically inclined and often sway — without meaning to – gently. I don’t fling myself from side to side, but I do rock and sway with most music. No priest or bishop has ever told me to stop it, nor has anyone ever told me I was being a distraction to them.

I have never seen arms waving in Mass either, though I have seen arms uplifted in simple prayer to the Lord during Mass, and not always from those who consider themselves “charismatic.” I personally find the body position of a person standing still, arms lifted up --either by the shoulders, halfway up, or way up to the full length of the outstretched arm-- usually with eyes closed, to be truly very reverent. Granted there are times during the Mass when this would not be distracting and times when it MIGHT be. During the Our Father, it would not be a problem. In the middle of the Consecration, well, Houston we have a problem!

Nor do I see clapping, revelling (?? can you clarify?), laughter, spontaneous outbursts of any kind, etc DURING our MASS. I do see those things occur in our charismatic PRAYER MEETINGS. Big big big big HUGE difference.

The authentic Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church is NOT about hijacking the Mass to make it more “entertaining” or whatever: It is not about “showing off” our gifts and charisms or being given mysterious secrets and special powers from the Lord. No, it is about renewing the hearts and souls of men and women for the Lord. It is about changing the face of the earth. Re-christianizing society. Restoring a passion for the Mass, for Eucharistic Adoration, for prayer. Serving the least in the world. Healing broken hearts, broken homes, broken people.

It is about Loving God with every moment of our lives and with every fiber of our being, intellect, emotion, will, and body. Which is EXACTLY what our Catholic Faith is all about, right?

 

[1_Maria]

Makerteacher:

I do not personally believe such formal approval exists, Maria. Those things are al fine at a rayer service or gathering outside of the Mass, but not during Mass, where our focus is to be always on The Real Presence of Jesus Christ. :>)

Thanks, I couldn’t find anything either.

I guess I’m really stunned by people having no problem ignoring this…

but not during Mass, where our focus is to be always on The Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

…in order to justify their own miniscule interpretation of worship.

Maria

 

[gnome]

1 Maria:

Thanks, Gnome, yes, my family did. Fr. Groeschel’s love for Mary and the Rosary is so very beautiful to see.
He also prays the Divine Mercy chaplet.

What a great example he is for the rest of us.
Maria

Maria, the whole family? what a great example you set for the rest of us…
ok here’s more from Fr. Groeschel:

“For some time, I’ve felt that we’ve
lost a good deal of strength in the Catholic
Church because we’ve lost a sense of devotion,
such as through praying the Rosary,” says Fr.
Groeschel. “People don’t really know what
devotion to the Rosary means, and so it has
gradually fallen out of practice. But the Rosary
is among the more valuable aspects of
the Catholic religion because it gets at the
very core of people,” he says. Groeschel explains
that because devotions like the Rosary
intertwine the whole essence of a person –
intelligence, emotion and heart – they invite him
into a very deep interior recollection, meditation,
emotions, even amidst the very disturbing
circumstances of modern life.

“And after all,” says Fr. Groeschel, “Our Lady, in her
apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima, requested us to pray
the Rosary.” And so the faithful should, he says.
Because repetitive prayer such as in
the Rosary can be healing for the soul, says
Fr. Groeschel, in desperate moments people
can find the Rosary to be a lifeline. He mentions
the recently discovered fact that Mother
Teresa – who will be beatified in October
2003 – lived through decades of deep spiritual
darkness and clung to the Rosary as a
place of devotion and refuge.

 

[Mysty101]

This thread has gotten
http://www.rocksmyfaceoff.net/forum/images/smiles/off_topic.gif

 

[1_Maria]

gnome:

ok here’s more from Fr. Groeschel:

“For some time, I’ve felt that we’ve
lost a good deal of strength in the Catholic
Church because we’ve lost a sense of devotion,
such as through praying the Rosary,” says Fr.
Groeschel. “People don’t really know what
devotion to the Rosary means, and so it has
gradually fallen out of practice. But the Rosary
is among the more valuable aspects of
the Catholic religion because it gets at the
very core of people,” he says. Groeschel explains
that because devotions like the Rosary
intertwine the whole essence of a person –
intelligence, emotion and heart – they invite him
into a very deep interior recollection, meditation,
emotions, even amidst the very disturbing
circumstances of modern life.

“And after all,” says Fr. Groeschel, “Our Lady, in her
apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima, requested us to pray
the Rosary.” And so the faithful should, he says.
Because repetitive prayer such as in
the Rosary can be healing for the soul, says
Fr. Groeschel, in desperate moments people
can find the Rosary to be a lifeline. He mentions
the recently discovered fact that Mother
Teresa – who will be beatified in October
2003 – lived through decades of deep spiritual
darkness and clung to the Rosary as a
place of devotion and refuge.

Gnome, thanks.

Fr. Groeschel speaks for so very many of us who are following the Pope’s request to love and pray the rosary, daily if possible.

No one ever knew the Holy Spirit as Mary does and every time we pray the rosary we honor both Mary and the Holy Spirit and we open ourselves, body and soul, to indescribable healing.

“To Jesus through Mary” Let there never be any innovation that threatens to ursurp that reality.

Maria

 

[jmm08]

mtr01:

St. Paul? Really? Ok, I’ll admit that I’m pretty skeptical concerning the Charismatic Renewal (but I don’t harbor any ill feelings towards those involved). That said, how could St. Paul be characterized as charismatic by today’s standard?

Yes. St. Paul.
St. Paul said he spoke more in tongues than anyone.
1 Cor 14:18 I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you,…

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Makerteacher:

Body swaying? I rock my babies in Mass, is that irreverent? I don’t think so. I am also very musically inclined and often sway — without meaning to – gently. I don’t fling myself from side to side, but I do rock and sway with most music. No priest or bishop has ever told me to stop it, nor has anyone ever told me I was being a distraction to them.

I have never seen arms waving in Mass either, though I have seen arms uplifted in simple prayer to the Lord during Mass, and not always from those who consider themselves “charismatic.” I personally find the body position of a person standing still, arms lifted up --either by the shoulders, halfway up, or way up to the full length of the outstretched arm-- usually with eyes closed, to be truly very reverent. Granted there are times during the Mass when this would not be distracting and times when it MIGHT be. During the Our Father, it would not be a problem. In the middle of the Consecration, well, Houston we have a problem!

Nor do I see clapping, revelling (?? can you clarify?), laughter, spontaneous outbursts of any kind, etc DURING our MASS. I do see those things occur in our charismatic PRAYER MEETINGS. Big big big big HUGE difference.

The authentic Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church is NOT about hijacking the Mass to make it more “entertaining” or whatever: It is not about “showing off” our gifts and charisms or being given mysterious secrets and special powers from the Lord. No, it is about renewing the hearts and souls of men and women for the Lord. It is about changing the face of the earth. Re-christianizing society. Restoring a passion for the Mass, for Eucharistic Adoration, for prayer. Serving the least in the world. Healing broken hearts, broken homes, broken people.

It is about Loving God with every moment of our lives and with every fiber of our being, intellect, emotion, will, and body. Which is EXACTLY what our Catholic Faith is all about, right?

Right.
And as I posted earlier, I am sure I would like to a part of the authentic renewal in the Church.
I just have seen a lot of misguided individualism in the name of “Charismatic,” which gives the movement a bad name. I’ve had family members leave the Church and now aggressively evangelize others out of the Catholic Church, and they got their start in so-called “Charismatic” prayer meetings, which I cannot believe were authentic.
God would not call His people to leave His Church and His Sacraments.
Now that was in California. I’m in NY, and the same stuff was going on here in my parish, back in the '70’s. It then died out, and we’ve not revisited it…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

mark a:

I never learned or did this as a kid, but started doing it because I seemed to be the only one not doing it.

Also, in the communion line, some bow slightly as the person in front of them receives communion. Some, after receiving communion, take a couple of steps to the side and bow.

Which is correct?

The action prior to receiving communion is in accord with ecclesiastical norms (i.e., bowing). I learned from the nuns as a kid to to do the sign of the cross after receiving communion. This action after receiving communion is nowhere prescribed, nor proscribed by ecclesiastical norms, however. It is a private gesture. Some do it, some do not. Is it incorrect to do it? Does it show a sign of disunity if some do it and some do not? I don’t think so. I think of it as I do hand-holding. I am free to hold hands or not without being disobedient to the norms of the Church.