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Mysty101
Guest
Perhaps “ethnic” might be a better description. Prayer is allowed in the cultural style of the community. Some of the Charismatic style worship is viewed in the same manner.
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mtr01
Guest
I disagree. Cultures vary, that is true, but cultural variations are not liturgical innovations. For example, take the gesture for the Rite of Peace. In the West, a handshake is the culturally accepted form of expressing the sign of peace. In Asia, as some have noted, it is a repectful bow. In some cultures it may be a kiss on both cheeks. However, as the GIRM states, these gestures are to be approved by the bishops in accordance with the norms of each culture. The same rubrics in this case are followed by all “as much as humanly possible”.
As an example to make my point, take the posture we are to assume during the Eucharistic Prayer. According to the Girm:
Now, I’ve been to parishes where the entire congregation remains standing, young and old alike, kneelers present, and with plenty of room. According to your post, in order to foster a sense of community I should also remain standing because the majority of people are doing it, even though it is a clear violation of the GIRM. This is not community, and in fact fosters disunity in the larger sense of the universal Church. It is nothing more than congregationalism as I previously stated.
This same argument applies to any and all liturgical innovations (such as those I posted previously). Cultural diversity has nothing to do with it, as we in the US are all from the same culture. As a result, those things that are abuses in a non-charismatic Mass are also abuses in a charismatic “Mass”.
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Makerteacher
Guest
1 Maria:
Point well taken. I can easily change that to “immature”, and I ask forgiveness if I sounded condemning/judgmental in my original post.
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Makerteacher
Guest
MrS, I like your last line! :>) And I agree with you. To be honest, the only differences between the (admittedly rare) “Charismatic” Masses I have attended, and a standard NO Mass in your weekly parish have been three things:
- Everybody sings, and really means it when they sing
- Sometimes during the elevation there is a gentle murmuring of prayer that becomes audible, from the congregation. Often this is a time when people will murmur in very *quiet and reverant * prayer tongues. It swells, crescendos, and falls away when the elevation is completed.
- Sometimes people will lift their hands in prayer during the songs. Not everyone, and not all the time.
I have never been gifted with the privelege of attending a Mass with Fr. Groeschel presiding. I have however attended Masses with Fr. Cantamalessa presiding (the papal preacher, a charismatic capuchin) and with Bishop Rylko and Bishop Cordes, both charismatic bishops. In all cases, the Mass, aside from the three things mentioned above, were just like regular N.O. Masses. Soldily within the GIRM, and more reverant than any Sunday parish Mass I have ever been to.
I hear people complain about “charismatic Masses”, often referring to fish-flopping and hand clapping and banjos and so forth. Honestly, I have never attended such an event, and hope never to do so. Exhuberance in worship is fine in a prayer meeting, but the Mass is a reverent time. All of the charismatics I know treat it with great piety and devotion and would never dream of allowing it to become a circus or a liturgical “renovation”.
That’s it.
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Makerteacher
Guest
mark a:
yes I think that in 99% of the cases, what is objectionable are abuses, not the norms for the movement.
yes the Church has indeed defined what is OK and what is not. For the Mass, that would be the GIRM. For prayer meetings, we must report what we do and how we do it to our local bishops and remain firmly connected and completely obedient to his authority. If he told us tomorrow to disband, we would.
Hi mark
yes I think that in 99% of the cases, what is objectionable are abuses, not the norms for the movement.
yes the Church has indeed defined what is OK and what is not. For the Mass, that would be the GIRM. For prayer meetings, we must report what we do and how we do it to our local bishops and remain firmly connected and completely obedient to his authority. If he told us tomorrow to disband, we would.
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Makerteacher
Guest
Les Richardson:
Prayer meetings usually consist of about 45 minutes of praise and worship music, followed by several teachings and word gifts, and a half hour or more of prayer as a group. Word gifts can be exhortations, Scripture readings with teachings, or personal testimonies. Prayers during this time run the gamut from prayers for world leaders, wars, social issues, personal needs, healing, and thanksgiving. Usually, total PM time is two hours, though we have been known to finish sooner – and to run longer – than that.
In addition we operate a prayer watch for as many hours of every day as we can cover. We hope to eventually have 24 / 7 coverage: right now it is more like 4 AM to 11 PM coverage. Everyone in the community agrees to take on an hour of prayer during the week. We pray for the world, mostly, and use many of the wonderful prayers given to us by the Mother Church, including the Rosary, the Divine Mercy Chaplet, and the many prayers for protection such as the St. Michael prayer.
We are connected through small groups know as Shared Life Clusters (or SLCs) which are the vehicle by which we remain connected and can care for one another. SLCs meet as often as the members of the cluster need to meet, and communicate regularly by phone, especially important for our elderly and single parents. We bring meals when there is an emergency, a new baby, a surgery. We mow the lawns of the elderly members. Together we study the Catechism, the Scriptures, Catholic theological teachings, and the depths of our Faith in many ways .
We also have a number of outreach ministries including a Catholic PK-8th grade school, a boy scout troop, a JCDA troop for the girls, an active pro-life ministry, junior high and youth ministries that meet weekly or more often, and several outreach ministries. Our school, which the local bishop has called “The most Catholic of our Diocesan schools,” is the only school in our Diocese which celebrates daily Mass, regular Eucharistic Adoration, Rosaries, monthly confessions, etc.
Here’s our Community website:
www.lumen2000.com
And our school’s website: www. popcsdallas.com
Back to the original topic: It is my understanding that Fr. Groeschel is a Charismatic Franciscan Catholic who is deeply obedient to the Magisterium, and who is deeply in love with his faith and his church.
We in CCGD Dallas believe we are called to be leaven in our parishes, and as such we do not have weekly Mass together. (We do celebrate special Masses as a Community a few times a year, most prominently at Pentecost, the beginning of the School year, and whenever we have Confirmations or First Eucharist celebrations.) We do have weekly prayer meetings, which do NOT replace regular Sunday attendance at Mass in our respective parishes. We gather for about two hours of music, praise, and teachings, and some word gifts, including prophecies. We do sing in tongues (all together, each praying to God directly, no interpretation needed or expected-- it sounds so beautiful) but speaking out in tongues is far more rare, and has always been followed with Interpretation. (Once someone spoke out very clearly in perfect Latin, which the priest in our community easily translated. The woman who spoke has never studied Latin.) We do pray over anyone who asks us to, for healing or whatever troubles they are facing. We do use blessed oil to do so. When one of our priests is present, we ask him to lead that prayer.
Prayer meetings usually consist of about 45 minutes of praise and worship music, followed by several teachings and word gifts, and a half hour or more of prayer as a group. Word gifts can be exhortations, Scripture readings with teachings, or personal testimonies. Prayers during this time run the gamut from prayers for world leaders, wars, social issues, personal needs, healing, and thanksgiving. Usually, total PM time is two hours, though we have been known to finish sooner – and to run longer – than that.
In addition we operate a prayer watch for as many hours of every day as we can cover. We hope to eventually have 24 / 7 coverage: right now it is more like 4 AM to 11 PM coverage. Everyone in the community agrees to take on an hour of prayer during the week. We pray for the world, mostly, and use many of the wonderful prayers given to us by the Mother Church, including the Rosary, the Divine Mercy Chaplet, and the many prayers for protection such as the St. Michael prayer.
We are connected through small groups know as Shared Life Clusters (or SLCs) which are the vehicle by which we remain connected and can care for one another. SLCs meet as often as the members of the cluster need to meet, and communicate regularly by phone, especially important for our elderly and single parents. We bring meals when there is an emergency, a new baby, a surgery. We mow the lawns of the elderly members. Together we study the Catechism, the Scriptures, Catholic theological teachings, and the depths of our Faith in many ways .
We also have a number of outreach ministries including a Catholic PK-8th grade school, a boy scout troop, a JCDA troop for the girls, an active pro-life ministry, junior high and youth ministries that meet weekly or more often, and several outreach ministries. Our school, which the local bishop has called “The most Catholic of our Diocesan schools,” is the only school in our Diocese which celebrates daily Mass, regular Eucharistic Adoration, Rosaries, monthly confessions, etc.
Here’s our Community website:
www.lumen2000.com
And our school’s website: www. popcsdallas.com
Back to the original topic: It is my understanding that Fr. Groeschel is a Charismatic Franciscan Catholic who is deeply obedient to the Magisterium, and who is deeply in love with his faith and his church.
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Mysty101
Guest
OK my response was in reference to raising hands, clapping and the music. All the Charismatic style Masses I have attended did follow the Girm instructions regarding the posture to be maintained.
Another point–Many who object so strongly to some minor changes in posture for the Charismatics genuflect as a sign of reverence or kneel for Communion which are also a variances of the GIRM instruction. And many do this when they are in a very small minority of the community, and it may be a tripping hazrd (I speak from experience on the tripping hazard)
The bishop and Rome know what goes on at Charismatic Masses–Bishop Jacobs, Fr DeGrandis, Fr MacDonough and many others travel around the country and celebrate many Masses. They would certainly be stopped, if their Masses were abusive and not very beneficial to the congregation.
Here’s the website for our conference. We also have picture albums and newsletters with reports of our events and links to other sites–the NY site has even more links and articles. We have Diocesean and national liasons.
siconference.com/
the 10th article down on this site is an article about our conference’s most recent event
catholiccharismaticny.org/Papers/Articles/articles.html
As I said, Charismatic worship is not for everyone, but it is approved and very beneficial to many.
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mtr01
Guest
I was merely referefecing posture as an example. The rubrics are set. Any raising hands, clapping, etc. which are not in the GIRM are liturgical innovations, and are not to be followed. As stated in Sacrosanctum Concilium, “Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.”
Actually what you speak of is *supposed *to be doneprior to receiving the Eucharist. It’s either in the GIRM or Redemptionis Sacramentum that before receiving we are to make a gesture of respect such as genuflecting or making a profound bow.
This is where, no offense, I begin to shudder. The Mass is the Mass, and nothing is to be introduced just for charismatics (or anyone else for that matter). That is an abuse. What you speak of my be fine in special prayer services or what have you, but have no place in the Mass. See MakerTeachers posts. As a charismatic, she makes very good points in distinguishing between the Mass and outside services/meetings.
Looking at the pictures, it appears as most of the things I refer to are being done at “revivals” or meetings outside of Mass. I have no problem with any of it, as long as it remains outside of the Mass.
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Mysty101
Guest
I, too am just using examples of when the instructions are not followed exactly, and this is allowed.
from the USCCB
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Distribution of Holy Communion
This adaptation will take the place of number 160, paragraph 2:
The faithful are not permitted to take up the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice themselves, and still less, hand them on to one another.** The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing.** Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
**When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. **The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.
and from postures and gestures
In spite of the instruction and reenforcement, many people do kneel or genuflect, and this is allowed. I am just saying that sometimes things outside of the instructions are allowed.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_5_1.gif
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1_Maria
Guest
Makerteacker, you are a real treasure when it comes to helping me understand what the CCR is really about. [that was my opening question on CA in a different thread.]
You have brought a much needed breath of fresh air to CA in this regard.
** For prayer meetings, we must report what we do and how we do it to our local bishops and remain firmly connected and completely obedient to his authority. If he told us tomorrow to disband, we would**
This is so good to know. I do have a question for you about it.
I’m thinking that any true discipline coming from a Bishop would pastorally be based on when he, the Bishop, saw that the particular CCR community was mature enough to loving accept the correction(s) knowing that the Bishop speaks for the Church.
Is this how it works?
I’m asking because I’m wondering why some groups who have ‘catchers’ assigned to the Masses to assist those who ‘rest’ or ‘get slain’ and fall in the aisles during Mass are not disciplined or corrected in some way.
This is a major turnoff for those of us who cannot abide seeing the focus that rightly belongs to the Eucharist and the liturgy of the Word, as well as to the priest as alter Christus, being shifted to the fallers and those who do tongues that drown out the words of the priest.
I’m certain almost all of us already know this is NOT true CCR.
I just think that hearing it from you would be so helpful to those of us who have witnessed it.
Maria
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Hi Leo44!
Peter had the gifts of healing and tonuges, which are charismatic gifts.
I suspect that by “today’s standards” you’re referring to the jumping around, extatic behavior of some people. That’s not what it means to be Charismatic. To be charismatic is to have one or more of the charismatic gifts. I pray in tongues yet I’ve never been to a hand-clapping, hand-raising Mass or prayer service. I think that “charismatic” is often misunderstood to mean the behavior of people rather than the gifts they’ve been given by the holy Spirit.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Mysty101
Guest
Maria,
I personally have not seen “catchers” during a Mass, or heard tongues while the priest was speaking. Actually I’ve only heard low praise tongues at a time of praise, and I think only 2 or 3 times at a Mass and this was not my conference. I do not understand why anyone not participating in these actions would attend that particular Mass.
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Mysty101
Guest
This is the case for all Catholic groups, if they are not connected to a Parish. Parish groups are under the direction of the Pastor.
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1_Maria
Guest
Makerteacher, your post, #66 shows more of what I was looking for and that’s the outward thrust of the CCR which seems to me to be abundant fruit.
I chose these snippets to show exactly that even though everything else could also be included.
Makerteacher:
I chose these snippets to show exactly that even though everything else could also be included.
Maria
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MrS
Guest
Very well said. Thank you for your othodoxy.
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Intercessor
Guest
Thanks for the welcome. I think the Charismatic movement frightens some people because it is different than what they know. And I do think some people can be misled by spirits other than the Holy Spirit. But a good charismatic program will help you to learn to distinguish God’s spirit from evil spirits or your own spirit. Jesus himself teaches us that “My sheep know my voice” As for charismatic prayer being non-reverant as some have posted, I have not found this to be the case. The people I know who pray in tongues pray softly and very reverantly. I think the charismatic movement has the power to revive the Church, just as the Holy Spirit set the apostles on fire at Pentecost. That reminds me…my 19 year old daughter has a group of friends who have been going to the University of Stubenville retreats for several years now…they are charismatic retreats…and you would be in awe of the faith of this group of young people. Two of her male friends have been seriously discerning the priesthood and one female friend is discerning religious life. So if you look at the fruits of their experiences it surely seems as if the charismatic movement is a positive one,
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mtr01
Guest
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1_Maria
Guest
Can anyone give me links that show the Pope’s approval to tongues, falling and catching, resting, or any innovations for that matter that occur during some charismatic ‘Masses’?
I have an acquaintance who insists that the Pope does approve of these things during Mass and she is quite upset at me because I don’t believe the Holy Spirit would have any part of diverting our attention from the Liturgy that comes to us through the Church.
Maria
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gnome
Guest
1 Maria:
Not even outside of the Mass. May be I didn’t search enough, I would like those links too. OTOH, when the Pope gave us the
new Rosary illuminous Mysteries, I know exactly what it means each time I say these prayers…
A very good question Maria. I asked myself same question awhile back and have not found such approval from the Pope.
Not even outside of the Mass. May be I didn’t search enough, I would like those links too. OTOH, when the Pope gave us the
new Rosary illuminous Mysteries, I know exactly what it means each time I say these prayers…
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Prometheum_x
Guest
Can anyone provide some information that would establish the irreverence of “clapping”? Everyone seems to be assuming that this is so, but I have never actually seen anything which establishes that it is so, other than the private opinions of various people.
From a musical perspective, clapping serves as a musical instrument, for it produces music, defined as follows:
from www.merriamwebster.com:
**
From a musical perspective, clapping serves as a musical instrument, for it produces music, defined as follows:
from www.merriamwebster.com:
**
: the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony** Depending on the culture, different instruments and musical styles may have different cultural connotations. Music (and the instruments which produce it) which is exclusively associated with secular things should not be used for sacred things such as the Mass. However, there are many things which, though they may be used in secular expression, are entirely appropriate for sacred purposes. For example, the voice is a featured instrument in both secular songs and sacred songs and the organ has a long history of secular use. The mere fact that an instrument or musical form is used in a secular expression should not disqualify it from being used for sacred purposes. In fact, it might be argued that rather than the sacred music drawing inspiration from the secular, secular music sometimes draws inspiration from that which is sacred.
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