Father Groeschel and the Charismatic movement

[MrS]

In these previous posts, I did not see anyone agree that there is a place for the charismatic, tongues, etc, in the liturgy of the Mass. I hope that is so. Fr. Groeschel would not approve of abuse of the liturgy of any kind. And the individualism associated with charisms has no more place in the Mass than liturgical dancers.

 

[Exporter]

Here are my two cents.

Charismatic worship and prayer ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE.

Holy Mother Church has not been wrong all these years. There are lay people forcing these groups to meet at homes, unguided. This can not only open the door to danger it can warp the minds of some, not all.

Just because something was taken from Hindu, Buhddist and yes other Eastern Religions doesn’t make it good and Christian or Catholic. Father Groeschel is a wonderful Priest, but I will bet you he has eliminated the Eastern Religious influencies.

Why hasn’t Holy Mother Church “discovered” this new mind set before? She has a way of seeing a bit farther than us lay people. Prayers written in 1640 were not written as they were because they sounded good, no, they were written for praise, supplication and protection. Books can be written about each of those prayers. But some few people don’t think they are good enough for them today!

 

[beng]

RichT:

Thank goodness you do…

I’ll be witty and said:

“Of course I am.”

 

[beng]

RichT:

Yes, and let’s not forget Matthew 7:1-5.

I like 1Cor 6:2 better.

 

[beng]

Exporter:

Here are my two cents.

Charismatic worship and prayer ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE.

This is not a good excuse.

The fact is Charismatic as practiced nowadays is inconsistent with the Bible And Vatican II.

 

[1_Maria]

beng:

This is not a good excuse.

The fact is Charismatic as practiced nowadays is inconsistent with the Bible And Vatican II.

Yes, this is true and for me it confirms the fact that what the Pope and Fr. Groeschel and many others are seeing is what the CCR is called to be and may in time come to be.

The potential is there.

Maria

 

[Voice_Of_Reason]

beng:

This is not a good excuse.

The fact is Charismatic as practiced nowadays is inconsistent with the Bible And Vatican II.

I thought Vatican II meant that if the Church doesn’t say you can’t do something, then it’s allowed.

 

[Listener]

I saw Father Groeschel at a Charismatic Conference several years ago, and he was wonderful! Don’t knock the Charismatic Movement until you’ve tried it. It’s amazing what a spiritual awakening you can get when you go there! I would recommend it for anyone who is getting bored with their faith and seems to be “stuck in a rut.” You can get a feeling that you have been trying to listen to a radio with weak batteries for years, and then all of a sudden your radio has new batteries. Another way of putting it, you have been watching a black and white TV for years, and all of a sudden it turns to living color!

 

[dumspirospero]

I dont’ think that is the approach to take…there are possibly a multitude of things that VII didn’t cover that creative people could invent and then justify it by saying it wasn’t covered by VII…that is like saying the “F-bomb” is not mentioned in the BIble as being a sin, so it must be acceptable.

Voice_Of_Reason:

I thought Vatican II meant that if the Church doesn’t say you can’t do something, then it’s allowed.

 

[beng]

Listener:

I saw Father Groeschel at a Charismatic Conference several years ago, and he was wonderful! Don’t knock the Charismatic Movement until you’ve tried it. It’s amazing what a spiritual awakening you can get when you go there! I would recommend it for anyone who is getting bored with their faith and seems to be “stuck in a rut.” You can get a feeling that you have been trying to listen to a radio with weak batteries for years, and then all of a sudden your radio has new batteries. Another way of putting it, you have been watching a black and white TV for years, and all of a sudden it turns to living color!

You can get “amazing feeling” by doing work out, singing karaoke, game etc.

 

[Mysty101]

beng:

You can get “amazing feeling” by doing work out, singing karaoke, game etc.

Yes, but this has nothing to do with God, Praise, Prayer & Worship. CCR is a far more enthusiastic style of Worship. It is mainly the music which is different in the celebration of the Mass. The Mass is the same, as it should be.

Haven’t you every gotten more into praise and worship because the Music was more lively? And when all the people respond, don’t you think they are more involved in the Mass?

Prayer is always good, and the high praise of a prayer meeting is great. Jesus surely smiles down on all that praise & worship.

 

[MrS]

Mysty101:

Yes, but this has nothing to do with God, Praise, Prayer & Worship. CCR is a far more enthusiastic style of Worship. It is mainly the music which is different in the celebration of the Mass. The Mass is the same, as it should be.

Haven’t you every gotten more into praise and worship because the Music was more lively? And when all the people respond, don’t you think they are more involved in the Mass?

Prayer is always good, and the high praise of a prayer meeting is great. Jesus surely smiles down on all that praise & worship.

This is so sad when the Mass and a “prayer meeting” are implied to be on the same level. Have any prayer service you wish to have if you are “bored” or “unsatisfied” or some of the other adjectives used to describe the Mass as lacking.

But when you change the liturgy, you change the theology of the Mass. And when you “teach” something different from the Truth of the Mass, the next stop is heresy.

Fr Groeschel is mentioned here and it is hinted he would approve of tongues etc in the Mass. Bull.

His words: “Far be it from me to think that God thinks like I think.”

He even disapproves of clapping in church… “If you need to clap, use one hand.”

 

[gnome]

Sad indeed. Here’s a comment from someone who attended
one of Fr. Groeschel conference:

At the retreat/conference I attended, nothing charismatic was presented. Benedict Groeschel in my opinion is one of the holiest people in the entire world. Benedict has spoken to charismatics and he often admonishes and warns them that the charismatic gifts are not signs of holiness or predestination to glory. He reminds that Jesus says that many people who speak in tongues, cast out demons, and prophecy will be punished and that
He will even say to them, “I never knew you.”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Mysty101:

beng:

You can get “amazing feeling” by doing work out, singing karaoke, game etc.

Yes, but this has nothing to do with God, Praise, Prayer & Worship. CCR is a far more enthusiastic style of Worship. It is mainly the music which is different in the celebration of the Mass. The Mass is the same, as it should be.

Haven’t you every gotten more into praise and worship because the Music was more lively? And when all the people respond, don’t you think they are more involved in the Mass?

This is one of my many issues with the Charismatic movement, or at least how it is protrayed by many people within the movement.

It is an over reliance on feelings.

I really get into “praise and worship” at the Byzantine Divine Liturgy and there is no music there at all.

I do not need (at least I try not to need) external sources to worship and praise.

Prayer is always good, and the high praise of a prayer meeting is great. Jesus surely smiles down on all that praise & worship.

While I understand all the groups that have prayer meetings I find it odd that they will create their own sort of prayer for those meetings.

What about the daily prayer of the Church? Why can’t groups that what to have prayer meetings pray the Liturgy of the Hours? That is the offical prayer of the Church.

 

[1_Maria]

MrS and Gnome,

Thanks for being so strong in your posts.

I have the impression that far too many catholics have lost track of, or have never learned, that the Mass is not about us, and what we might incredibly believe we are doing for God.

The Mass is about God and what He is doing for us.

We need to be receptive to what He is giving us.

Maria

 

[MrS]

1 Maria:

MrS and Gnome,

Thanks for being so strong in your posts.

I have the impression that far too many catholics have lost track of, or have never learned, that the Mass is not about us, and what we might incredibly believe we are doing for God.

The Mass is about God and what He is doing for us.

We need to be receptive to what He is giving us.

Maria

again… Far be it from me to think that I think like God thinks.

Thank you

 

[1_Maria]

ByzCath:

This is one of my many issues with the Charismatic movement, or at least how it is protrayed by many people within the movement.

It is an over reliance on feelings.

David, that’s what I’m seeing more and more. I don’t believe that’s what the CCR is about.

or at least how it is protrayed by many people within the movement

“My God and my all” should never be watered down by feelings or lack thereof.

Maria

 

[Mysty101]

The Charismatic movement is not for everyone. So if you don’t like that style of worship, do not attend.

It is not about feelings–it is about manifestation of the Holy Spirit—in everyday situations, as well as miraculous situations. Miracles are not common, but God’s peace and help during times or difficulty happen every day. I would hope you all believe that prayer is beneficial in any situation.

Pray in whatever manner you choose—just pray

(and don’t knock anyone else’s prayer—CCR is an approved movement of the Catholic Church)

 

[Makerteacher]

Fr. Groeschel and his Conventual Franciscan Friars of the Renewal live in one of the most dangerous sections of New York City. They sleep on hardwood floors, go everywhere in their full habits, and are in constant danger from both the local gangs and druglords, who think at first that they are cops in disguise, and the cops, who think they are gang members and drug lords hiding guns under those long flowing habits.

And yes they are charismatic. It’s not hard at all to be both Catholic (solidly, obediently, sacrificially Catholic) and charismatic.

What continues to baffle and frustrate me on these boards is the near-constant insistence of some that ALL charismatic Catholics are theologically dangerous and behave a certain way, or that the one of two charismatics they once knew --or heard of --represent ALL charismatic Catholics. It’s stereotyping, pure and simple.

One has to step back and see the Renewal worldwide and consider the fruits of this movement. Every group has flake cases. Ours is no exception. Apparently those flakes have gotten way more attention than the hundreds of thousands of Catholic Charismatics who are quietly living lives of devotion and faith. What may be different about charismatics is our willingness to remove flakes from leadership, and then to continue to minister to them even when they have embarassed us and discredited our movement rather than tossing them out.

Many bishops and theologians support the Charismatic Movement. While this does not prove its legitimacy – any more than the same proved the legitimacy of the Arians,-- it does show that this is not some weird, flipped out fringe movement among the uneducated and ignorant. There is substance to this movement, and it exists SOLELY to serve Mother Church.

The Renewal is an** approved lay apostolate** of the Church. Worldwide, it’s members are involved in some of the most outstanding solidly orthodox and obedient Catholic evangelization and outreach ministries, from living in drug infested inner cities in the USA to running hospitals in the poorest most war torn areas of Africa to delivering Communion to outlying rural areas in Brazil. We have a growing number of vocations coming out of our movement and have been instrumental in gertting Adoration restored in many parishs worldwide.

Here are the documents that show it IS approved. There are two major movements with the Catholic Charismatic Community: ICCRS and CFCC. Both are approved lay apostolates. Both function in full obedience with the Holy See.

This links you to the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services (ICCRS) site, with documentation of their relationship with the Vatican, ICCRS is a JURIDICAL PERSONALITY “ad instar”, i.e. corresponding to a PRIVATE ASSOCIATION OF THE FAITHFUL (Cf., CC 321-329,116, §2).

iccrs.org/statutes.htm

Here is the site for the CFCC, also known as the CCCF, which is the branch in which I function as a member of a Covenant Community.

catholicfraternity.net/gen2004.html#_1eng

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

Makerteacher:

Fr. Groeschel and his Conventual Franciscan Friars of the Renewal live in one of the most dangerous sections of New York City. They sleep on hardwood floors, go everywhere in their full habits, and are in constant danger from both the local gangs and druglords, who think at first that they are cops in disguise, and the cops, who think they are gang members and drug lords hiding guns under those long flowing habits.

And yes they are charismatic. It’s not hard at all to be both Catholic (solidly, obediently, sacrificially Catholic) and charismatic.

What continues to baffle and frustrate me on these boards is the near-constant insistence of some that ALL charismatic Catholics are theologically dangerous and behave a certain way, or that the one of two charismatics they once knew --or heard of --represent ALL charismatic Catholics. It’s stereotyping, pure and simple.

One has to step back and see the Renewal worldwide and consider the fruits of this movement. Every group has flake cases. Ours is no exception. Apparently those flakes have gotten way more attention than the hundreds of thousands of Catholic Charismatics who are quietly living lives of devotion and faith. What may be different about charismatics is our willingness to remove flakes from leadership, and then to continue to minister to them even when they have embarassed us and discredited our movement rather than tossing them out.

Many bishops and theologians support the Charismatic Movement. While this does not prove its legitimacy – any more than the same proved the legitimacy of the Arians,-- it does show that this is not some weird, flipped out fringe movement among the uneducated and ignorant. There is substance to this movement, and it exists SOLELY to serve Mother Church.

The Renewal is an** approved lay apostolate** of the Church. Worldwide, it’s members are involved in some of the most outstanding solidly orthodox and obedient Catholic evangelization and outreach ministries, from living in drug infested inner cities in the USA to running hospitals in the poorest most war torn areas of Africa to delivering Communion to outlying rural areas in Brazil. We have a growing number of vocations coming out of our movement and have been instrumental in gertting Adoration restored in many parishs worldwide.

Here are the documents that show it IS approved. There are two major movements with the Catholic Charismatic Community: ICCRS and CFCC. Both are approved lay apostolates. Both function in full obedience with the Holy See.

This links you to the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services (ICCRS) site, with documentation of their relationship with the Vatican, ICCRS is a JURIDICAL PERSONALITY “ad instar”, i.e. corresponding to a PRIVATE ASSOCIATION OF THE FAITHFUL (Cf., CC 321-329,116, §2).

iccrs.org/statutes.htm

Here is the site for the CFCC, also known as the CCCF, which is the branch in which I function as a member of a Covenant Community.

catholicfraternity.net/gen2004.html#_1eng

Couldn’t have said it better myself. It is true that there are some charismatics that do the things that people here accuse the entire renewal of. We don’t deny it, but that doesn’t represent the entire renewal. I know for a fact that if a non-Catholic met a nominal Catholic, that if they came to you saying that all Catholics are like that nominal Catholic, you would just start having a fit. You’re doing the exact same thing. You wouldn’t like it if someone generalized you, don’t generalize other people.