Father Groeschel and the Charismatic movement

[1_Maria]

Makerteacher:

… It’s not hard at all to be both Catholic (solidly, obediently, sacrificially Catholic) and charismatic.

One has to step back and see the Renewal worldwide and consider the fruits of this movement. Every group has flake cases. Ours is no exception. Apparently those flakes have gotten way more attention than the hundreds of thousands of Catholic Charismatics who are quietly living lives of devotion and faith. What may be different about charismatics is our willingness to remove flakes from leadership, and then to continue to minister to them even when they have embarassed us and discredited our movement rather than tossing them out.

There is substance to this movement, and it exists SOLELY to serve Mother Church.

Makerteacher, thank you very much for giving us the view of the CCR that many of us believed existed in spite of the examples to the contrary that many of us have seen in our own areas and even on this message board.

I however would not choose the term, “flakes” because I see the the ones you describe and the ones I have known personally and have seen on various message boards as being sincere but extremely immature in their understanding of what the CCR really is. I do not believe they intentionally contribute to putting the CCR in a poor light but I’m happy to hear that the leadership both recognizes the harm they are causing, and takes steps to correct it as you did here.

For several years I have wanted to find just one CCR person with the maturity to put movement in it’s proper light as well as it’s perspective in regards to the entire Church and your post is without a doubt the best and only post I have ever seen on the CCR that does exactly this.

I can’t begin to describe how good it feels to finally have my own thoughts on the CCR finally confirmed.

I knew the Pope, Cardinal Ratzinger and Fr. Groeschel, as well as many other members of the hierarchy were seeing something other than what the very immature * present on various message boards and in ‘real’ life.

Thanks again,

Maria*

 

[MrS]

1 Maria:

I however would not choose the term, “flakes” because I see the the ones you describe and the ones I have known personally and have seen on various message boards as being sincere but extremely immature in their understanding of what the CCR really is. I do not believe they intentionally contribute to putting the CCR in a poor light but I’m happy to hear that the leadership both recognizes the harm they are causing, and takes steps to correct it as you did here.

I can’t begin to describe how good it feels to finally have my own thoughts on the CCR finally confirmed.

I knew the Pope, Cardinal Ratzinger and Fr. Groeschel, as well as many other members of the hierarchy were seeing something other than what the very immature * present on various message boards and in ‘real’ life.

Thanks again,

Maria*
That pretty well sums it up Marie. I would only add what I think is the problem some see with the movement (Myself included). I feel more than uneasy when I see the movement integrated with the Mass. That is not pushing the limits, that is abuse by the faction of the movement trying to make the laity more clerical. I think, from reading many of your posts, you would agree. There is a place for the charismatic in the Catholic Church. Let’s hope that the Charismatics who think the Church should find a place in the movement will just fade away.

 

[Mysty101]

MrS:

I feel more than uneasy when I see the movement integrated with the Mass. That is not pushing the limits, that is abuse by the faction of the movement trying to make the laity more clerical. .

Would you please explain what you mean by this? The difference I have seen in a charismatic style Mass is mainly in the choice of music, which is a valid option.

 

[mark_a]

So it’s the abuses of the charismatic movement that many are opposed to, correct?

Has the Church defined what is ok or not ok? Seems to me that is the real problem.

I’m a little more open minded about this than I once was, but am unsure if I would ever fit this style. I’m just not creative in that way.

But then again, who would have ever thought I would come back to the Church?

 

[1_Maria]

mark a:

So it’s the abuses of the charismatic movement that many are opposed to, correct?

Mark, Makerteacher who is a member of CCR and posted this above and I believe she would be the one to best answer your question.

One has to step back and see the Renewal worldwide and consider the fruits of this movement. Every group has flake cases. Ours is no exception. Apparently those flakes have gotten way more attention than the hundreds of thousands of Catholic Charismatics who are quietly living lives of devotion and faith. What may be different about charismatics is our willingness to remove flakes from leadership, and then to continue to minister to them even when they have embarassed us and discredited our movement rather than tossing them out.

She knows first hand what is truly reprentative of the movement and what is not.

Maria

 

[MrS]

Mysty101:

Would you please explain what you mean by this? The difference I have seen in a charismatic style Mass is mainly in the choice of music, which is a valid option.

Charismatic style Mass is where it should began. There are no permissions or options in the Rubrics or in the GIRM that allow for the vocal or physical charismatic gestures. These are apparently not considered a distraction to those who enjoy them. But the reverence of the Mass is abused with them. Are we forgetting this is not our Mass, it is God’s re-presenting His sacrifice.

Sarcastically, show me a Last Super where the Apostles chose the psalms (music), chose their level of attention (true participation), chose individual gesturing and utterances, and I will reconsider. They used those choices outside of the greatest prayer we have. And nowhere in the early Church is there a record of accepting changes in the liturgy which dimished reverence.

Enjoy the gifts associated with the charismatic renewal if you feel so inclined, or called. But never think they are an acceptable part of the Mass.

 

[Les_Richardson]

mark a:

Father Groeschel sure seems to be “in the loop”. His stuff I hear on Catholic radio concerning all other things Catholic certainly seem to be sensible. I really feel like I would have to trust his views about charism, even though charism really seems “different”.

I would be inclined to wait and hear exactly what he does say about CCR and the entire subject of charismaticism. It may not be what we are expecting. If anyone knows any written record of his opinions on the subject, I would love to read it. He is a qualified psychiatrist, is he not? Or is that psychologist? I can’t remember which. In any event he has a lot of knowledge of both human psychology as well as spirituality. Personally, I would value his assessment.

 

[Mysty101]

Just remember that an option is not what you like or dislike—there are many legitimate options which some do not like.

Bottom line—if you do not like enthusiastic music, Charismatic style worship is probably not for you.

Many of the psalms or music which a person may not like just may very well be valid options.

Check the GIRM # 46, 74, and 87 for the options in music for the entrance, offfertory, and Communion song or chant (option # 4 is pretty open)

(4) a suitable liturgical song chosen in accordance with no. 86 above. This is sung either by the choir alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.

As for the psalm—last paragraph of # 61

In the dioceses of the United States of America, the following may also be sung in place of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary for Mass: either the proper or seasonal antiphon and Psalm from the Lectionary, as found either in the Roman Gradual or Simple Gradual or in another musical setting; or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of the psalms and antiphons, including psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the responsorial Psalm.

This, too is pretty open, and I have never heard of the Bishop going against a Pastor in this matter, so if the Pastor OK’s it, I’m sure the Bishop will ok it.

And as far as gestures do you mean raising hands or clapping? If the majority do it, it would be the community thing to do. It is not forbidden, as long as the celebrant does not instruct the congregation (I guess like holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer)

Most Parishes do offer traditional style Masses even if they do have a Charismatic style Mass. I would just go at a different time, if I didn’t like the Charismatic style.

 

[Les_Richardson]

ByzCath:

While I understand all the groups that have prayer meetings I find it odd that they will create their own sort of prayer for those meetings.

What about the daily prayer of the Church? Why can’t groups that what to have prayer meetings pray the Liturgy of the Hours? That is the offical prayer of the Church.

I had the good fortune to discover early on after my conversion to the Catholic Church, because I do a lot of reading, that if someone mentions a “prayer meeting” the odds are good that it is this particular type of meeting of praise, tongues,etc.

Coming from a Baptist background that disappointed me, because now the expression as been “hijacked”, at least for me, and the Protestant meaning that I was raised with is lost to the Catholic Church, and personally I think it is the true meaning of a prayer meeting.

As a kid I remember that we met in various homes of Christians of the congregation, occasionally at the Church itself, and the purpose was a serious look at a Bible text, a mini-seminar if you will, a lesson, and then there was the time when everyone knelt and closed their eyes in prayer. Someone would lead off and begin to pray for some person or situation that was on their mind at that moment, and would continue praying (all out loud, but with eyes closed to reduce distraction) until they had covered the particualr burdens on their heart. Then another would start, whoever was led to do so, and when they had finished another, all having the courtesy to allow the other to finish, in an orderly fashion. When it seemed by a period of silence that there were no more persons wanting to add their prayers out loud, then the leader would pray and thus close the prayer meeting with his/her prayer. No time limits, just earnest prayer.

But the one thing that stands out to this day in my mind, was that their prayers were rarely if ever about themselves. They prayed for other people, for salvation of souls, for the good of the Church, for specific trials or hardships that the Church was facing. They asked for guidance and wisdom, but for the purpose of helping others. They implored God, they pleaded, they thanked Him, they praised Him, they offered intercession, but I cannot recall ever hearing a prayer meeting asking God to come down on them, for an experience. They asked for help in doing His work, but it was always outward/other centred. Whole different orientation I guess.

However, the first time I heard a prayer meeting mentioned, that was what I immediately thought of. I know I would have been totally disappointed if I had gone to one without having been clued in ahead of time.

Personally, I would love to have a prayer meeting like the one I described from my childhood, but I guess I would have to call it something else. Pity.

 

[Mysty101]

Les,

There are many prayer meetings connected with parishes or charismatic conferences which are similar to what you describe.

They start with prayers of praise and song, then some scripture or teaching on scripture or wittness, then petition prayers and prayers for healing.

What have you seen that you find so disappointing?

 

[MrS]

Mysty101:

Just remember that an option is not what you like or dislike—there are many legitimate options which some do not like.

Agreed … but are there illegitimate options which some DO like. I say yes. Interjecting a mode of “less reverence” is not good.

Bottom line—if you do not like enthusiastic music, Charismatic style worship is probably not for you.

I love enthusiastic music. But it is not approved for the liturgy of the Mass, and no priest or bishop can over ride that universal rubric. Charismatic worship is probably not for me. Charismatic Mass is not for any one orthodox,… even if they like it.

Many of the psalms or music which a person may not like just may very well be valid options.

Check the GIRM # 46, 74, and 87 for the options in music for the entrance, offfertory, and Communion song or chant (option # 4 is pretty open)

None would be considered charismatic in their nature, right?

As for the psalm—last paragraph of # 61
This, too is pretty open, and I have never heard of the Bishop going against a Pastor in this matter, so if the Pastor OK’s it, I’m sure the Bishop will ok it.

First you cite the necessity of approval by the bishop, and then acknowledge the pastor could set the tone. I agree with you. Too many innovative pastors are being creative or letting the Worship or Liturgy Committees re-design the Mass to get more people interested. Wow… we have gone from 75% attendance to 25% attendance in 40 years with less vocations, less good priests, and more abuses becoming the “norm”.

And as far as gestures do you mean raising hands or clapping? If the majority do it, it would be the community thing to do.

Ah, the magic word… “community”. Did you know that the use of “community” and “faith community” to describe any group other than the orthodox Catholic Church is again becoming popular because it bluntly describes the Church (and sacraments et al) Jesus started and the other “communities”, sects, denominations etc started by man and usually claiming the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We need the magisterium now more than ever. True love is expressed beautifully in obedience.

It is not forbidden, as long as the celebrant does not instruct the congregation (I guess like holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer)

Yes it is. The Rubrics are clear in what is permitted. All else is not. That would open a real can of worms. If the celebrant is quiet, what else is permissible???

Most Parishes do offer traditional style Masses even if they do have a Charismatic style Mass. I would just go at a different time, if I didn’t like the Charismatic style.

Unfortunately, most parishes do not offer a TLM. Is there another traditional “style” Mass I am not aware of? A NO Mass in Latin is just that, and not a tradition by any means. It is only the New Mass in the official (traditional ) language.

 

[Intercessor]

I attended a Life in the Spirit program at my church about three years ago. My faith has been growing ever since. I am increasingly becoming aware of the movement of the Holy Spirit in my life. Initially, I felt an increased desire to go to mass and receive the Eucharist. Soon after, I began to go to adoration each week. About two years ago, I felt a very clear call to join an intercessory prayer group. Shortly thereafter I received the gift of tongues and was awed that the prayers flowed from my tongue without me forming them. Part of our intercessory group involves formation exercises which helps us to learn humility, obediance, surrender to God’s perfect will, silence, contemplation, contrition,and intercession. Though not always easy, I wouldn’t go back. Like Peter said to Jesus when Jesus asked the apostles if they would leave Him too, “Master, to whom should we go?” If you have a chance to learn more about the Charismatic movement in the Catholic church I strongly suggest you do it. Be open to the Holy Spirit and see where He leads you. The consolations and growing closeness to God will be well worth it worth .

 

[Mysty101]

Intercessor,
Hi—and welcome to the forum.

It is wonderful to hear of your positive spiritual experience in the Charismatic movement. So sad that others are so negative and condemning of this movement, and therefore miss out on all that is offered by the Holy Spirit through it.

 

[mtr01]

MrS:

And as far as gestures do you mean raising hands or clapping? If the majority do it, it would be the community thing to do.

Ah, the magic word… “community”. Did you know that the use of “community” and “faith community” to describe any group other than the orthodox Catholic Church is again becoming popular because it bluntly describes the Church (and sacraments et al) Jesus started and the other “communities”, sects, denominations etc started by man and usually claiming the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We need the magisterium now more than ever. True love is expressed beautifully in obedience.

I think there needs to be a distinction made here. For a Catholic, “community” refers to all members of the Church worldwide. To foster a sense of community, we should all be observing the same rubrics (within a particular rite), us much as humanly possible, everywhere in the world. **That **is community.

Now, in contrast, going along with some unapproved liturgical innovation (such as clapping or hand holding or standing during the eucharistic prayer, etc) because everyone else in the parish (or at least those at any particular Mass) is doing it is not fostering community. It is a form of congregationalism, plain and simple, and as far as I’m concerned, has no place in the Catholic Church whatsoever.

 

[Mysty101]

Originally Posted by Mysty101–blue MrS
*
Agreed … but are there illegitimate options which some DO like. I say yes. Interjecting a mode of “less reverence” is not good.
*
This is subjective----I do not feel that all Charismatic worship is less reverant.
*

Many of the psalms or music which a person may not like just may very well be valid options.

Check the GIRM # 46, 74, and 87 for the options in music for the entrance, offfertory, and Communion song or chant (option # 4 is pretty open)

None would be considered charismatic in their nature, right?
*
Yes, they definitely would.
*

It is not forbidden, as long as the celebrant does not instruct the congregation (I guess like holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer)

Yes it is. The Rubrics are clear in what is permitted. All else is not. That would open a real can of worms. If the celebrant is quiet, what else is permissible???
*
If you fold your hands in prayer at a time when it is not specifically instructed in the Rubrics would you consider it an abuse? The raised hands are a prayer position of the Charismatics—this is not abusive.
*Most Parishes do offer traditional style Masses even if they do have a Charismatic style Mass. I would just go at a different time, if I didn’t like the Charismatic style.

Unfortunately, most parishes do not offer a TLM. Is there another traditional “style” Mass I am not aware of? A NO Mass in Latin is just that, and not a tradition by any means. It is only the New Mass in the official (traditional ) language.
I was referring to an NO Mass—sorry for my choice of words. My point is that if you do not like the Charismatic style Mass, there is usually another style Mass offered.*

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

Les,

There are many prayer meetings connected with parishes or charismatic conferences which are similar to what you describe.

They start with prayers of praise and song, then some scripture or teaching on scripture or wittness, then petition prayers and prayers for healing.

What have you seen that you find so disappointing?

I have spent a lot of time reading, investigating, looking at information from local parishes, internet searches from all over. I’ve attended lay conferences, spoken to people from other places.

Almost invariably, the “prayer meeting” is associated first with CCR, and in a parish that is not dominantly CCR oriented, the group is a small charismatic cell group. From the start, that is a different orientation in the sense that growing up the prayer meeting was simply Christian, a part of the church, a mid-week meeting that held no special connotation. It was attended, normally to be sure, by those who were more than “adherents” to the congregation, ie. more serious about their faith and the evangelization of the world around. But it was a normal part of church life.

Now, I realize that in the broader context of the Catholic Church over the past fifty years, a mid-week prayer meeting may be something unusual in and of itself, regardless of its orientation. When I converted over a year ago, I was under no happy delusions that everything was sweetness and light across the broader spectrum of Catholic churches or even those identifying themselves as Catholics. I have known many Catholics in my life time that were indestinguishable from their pagan neighbours and friends. That is not a criticism, merely an observation that my reasons for converting had little to do with the influence of model Catholic Christians, but rather the truth contained in the faith itself. Not that I wasn’t aware of good Catholic Christians, indeed I’ve met large numbers of them since I started to move in Catholic circles, so to speak.

But to return to the subject at hand. Almost invariably as well, when there is any sort of promotion, or recommendation of said prayer meetings the highlight is the “experience” whether it be praise or receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or healing. Leaving aside that entire debate over the “gifts” for the moment, that is a very different focus or orientation. If I were to describe it I could only say that it is inward focussed, ie. inward of the group, rather than outward. I am saying this is the sense I get from various directions, and is almost a promotional point. You see, a very different kind of meeting from what I understood as a “prayer meeting.”
(More)

 

[Mysty101]

mtr01:
Now, in contrast, going along with some unapproved liturgical innovation (such as clapping or hand holding or standing during the eucharistic prayer, etc) because everyone else in the parish (or at least those at any particular Mass) is doing it is not fostering community. It is a form of congregationalism, plain and simple, and as far as I’m concerned, has no place in the Catholic Church whatsoever.
Just look at some of the cultural Masses.

 

[Les_Richardson]

My research into ALPHA and other forms of process evangelism gives me a clue as to the reason for this. First and formost, in the case of ALPHA, the prime mover and writer of the program, Nicky Gumbel has a pedigree that reaches back with his friend Wimber into the far nether regions of the Toronto Blessing and all that attended that. They are a signs and wonders oriented group, using as Wimber is known for, “power evangelism”. The pentecostalism from which that whole movement was nurtured is into the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a prerequisite for salvation, and tongues as a sign of that Baptism. Again, leaving aside the debate, what that suggests to me is the orientation of new Christians is, as one critic put it, as converts to a Christian lifestyle, rather than to Jesus Christ. I mean, he spends massive amounts of the course on the Gifts and at the weekend retreat for ***an intrductory course on Christianity ***he has people training to speak in tongues, before even making any commitment to faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation or any commitment to obedience to the Church that Christ founded! In other words, these converts, at least in part, and it would explain a 70% fall-away rate, are being sold a life-style, a spiritual experience, rather than being faced directly with the consequence of not falling on their knees in absolute contrition before God Almighty and crying out “Lord have Mercy.” Power evangelism is all about selling the power, the signs and wonders, not the expectation of judgement. So when these “Christians” hit a rough patch, as we all will, they wonder what happened? Where is this great lifestyle? Their expectations come from being re-affirmed in the mentality that pervades the New Age spiritualities, and in a very real way they are “giving Christianity a try.”

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. It is from that point that we learn to love God, discovering that He loves us. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The knowledge of our circumstance comes first, before we can or will truly do something about it.

What I am saying is that I get the sense, rightly or wrongly, that something is 180 degrees out of phase. All of the theological issues with Gumbel, Wimber and Protestant charismaticism may be only subtly present in the CCR, I don’t know more than what I have read from charismatic sources and from posters here. I suspect that it goes much deeper in some quarters. It is not a question of abuses, either. If there are such, there is a reason for them. We are talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. How could there be an abuse? An abuse suggests something that is good in small quantities, but can be overdone. What? Are we still talking about the Holy Spirit here? You see what I’m driving at?

And so, without passing judgement on the “prayer meetings” as such, I have yet to hear of one that I would be remotely interested in attending, primarily because of the stated purpose.

 

[MrS]

Amen, I think

 

[mtr01]

Mysty101:

Just look at some of the cultural Masses.

What is a cultural Mass?