Father James Martin on homophobia

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Hereiam said:
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phil19034:
No, Fr Martin does not give balance
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I’m not talking about just this issue, I am speaking that relative to Father Z, Father Martin provides balance.
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Balance to what? One either has orthodox views or heretical views. Father Z never says anything that is heretical, though he often has his views that differ from some, but are views that are allowed to differ within the Church (like music preference, etc.) or disagreeing with the allowance of communion in the hand.

He never takes a heretical position.

Fr. Martin on the other hand is flat out rejecting the Catechism and Bible by some of this statements.

Now, before this subject became Fr. Martin’s calling card, I would agree that he often provided a middle of road, “balanced” approach to topics - esp regarding evangelization. However, his teachings on homosexual acts and relationships are placing him far outside of orthodoxy.

God Bless
 
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The famous, “Who am I to judge him” quotation is played around the 6:30 mark.

That statement has to be properly understood, and it is also taken out of the greater context.

“If someone is gay, who searches for the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge him”

Other translated quotes took off the word “him” at the end.

Fr. Martins is saying “It’s not for us to judge”…so are we to understand that statement in the way our common culture has taken it up as their standard or the more accurate way of the Gospel.

Catholics are compelled to judge a moral action from an immoral action. We are not, however, permitted to judge the person.

The Pope was referring to the precept that we are not to pass judgement on the person. And that is perfectly true.
 
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Judge Not… Especially if It’s Me

Phrases that have become very popular retorts in our culture are, “Don’t be judgmental,” “Who are you to judge me?” “Judge not, lest ye be judged,” and “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” These retorts are usually made by someone who just had their own sinful behavior pointed out. The person pointing out the sin is in turn vilified for being “judgmental.” Does this sound familiar? Have you been on the judging side or the judged side? Who is right in these situations?

This situation has its root in bad theology. Specifically, most believe that when Jesus said, “Judge not lest you be judged,” (Matthew 7:1) that He was teaching that we are not to judge, that He meant that you can’t tell someone that they are sinning (even if they are). This could not be further from the truth. Jesus is not telling us never to judge, but to judge fairly.

Listen to the rest of what Jesus said in context (verses 2-5): “For with the judgment you pronounce, you will be judged.” Jesus means that if you judge out of vengeance or with evil intent, God will judge you for this, but if you judge honestly and with good intentions, God’s judgment of you will reflect this too.

“The measure you give will be the measure you get” (Luke 6:38). Here, Jesus is telling us that God’s judgment on us will depend on whether we use exaggerations and other dishonest means when we judge. If we judge with fairness and compassion, we will be judged the same way.

more…
 
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I see no controversy in the video given in the Original Post.
thephilosopher6 said:
Fr. James Martin is a heretic, he actually advocates same sex unions.
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That’s what people say, but I have not found it to be true. Can you show me where he said that? I mean a direct quote or video of him, not a quote or video of someone else interpreting him.
 
Hereiam said:
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JamalChristophr:
I don’t believe homophobia exists in the Church to any serious degree.
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Couldn’t be further from the truth if you view “the Church” as the sum of all of us members, rather than a religious organization.
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I disagree with you here. I do not see wide spread homophobia in the Church neither among its members nor with Church teaching. Please cite where you see homophobia of its members.
 
Attending a gay wedding is like attending a Jewish wedding:
Why is it so terrible to go to a gay wedding, but it is not terrible to go to a Jewish wedding? You know, let’s say – seriously – if your daughter, let’s say if you decided to convert to Judaism and you married Andy who was Jewish, right, your parents would probably be disappointed, I would assume, you know, or confused, or whatever. But the idea that they couldn’t go or would refuse to go um, it’s very surprising to me. So I think Catholics need to see it in light of that, that it is a different tradition…different belief system than most Catholics are used to…but it’s supporting the person that you love. So it’s very sad to me that people still agonize over this.
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Gay people should be allowed to kiss at Mass:
I always say that LGBT people have more faith than, I think, straight people because of that. I mean imagine you – what you have just described is really interesting, Brandon. You have internalized rejection already. You don’t need to even be told that you’re rejected in the Church, you’ve internalized it and that’s very sad… A lot of the people that Jesus came into contact with did the same thing. Think of like the woman with the hemorrhage, right, who doesn’t even feel worthy to kind of stand up and greet him, she reaches down and touches the hem of the garment; or the Samaritan women, right, who comes to the well at noon in the heat of the day because… we think, she’s been married five times and she’s probably embarrassed. Maybe people didn’t know enough to tell her you’re not welcome to come out at the regular time when other women come; she comes because she is embarrassed and she kinda internalized that and that’s sad. So I hope in ten years you will be able to kiss your partner or, you know, soon to be your husband. Why not? What’s the terrible thing? And think of all the people in Church who have all sorts of other things on their conscience…it’s up to the institutional Church I think to make you feel welcome.
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Being against gay marriage is equal to racism:
Let’s say somebody in your office…if someone in an office said to you, well, you know, I hear you’re marrying that person from West Africa and I just cannot bring myself to go to the wedding. You would feel angry and probably insulted – you probably also would feel sorry for that person. Like, wow, in this day and age, that person is still racist? Where is that coming from? So, I think pity is probably a – Jesus, when he meets people who don’t understand things, he says his heart was moved with pity. And also to always be open to those people changing. Because I think that happens a lot, actually.
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Source: Eight extreme things Fr. James Martin just said about Catholics and gay ‘marriage’ | Blogs | LifeSite
 
Okay, he is talking about acknowledging civil unions or civil “marriages.” That doesn’t quite rise to the level of heresy. Render unto Caesar and all. Civil unions outside of the Church, not sacramental.

If I hug my Dad at Mass, are you going to get after me? What if I kiss him?
 
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It very much does rise to the level of heresy. Same sex unions are sinful, they are not true marriages, and validating them in anyway goes directly against Church dogma. The Church Fathers are turning in their graves at such nonsense!
 
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thephilosopher6 said:
The Church Fathers are turning in their graves at such nonsense!
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Thomas Aquinas would turn in his grave at the lack of rigor. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a clear thinker like him on this forum!
 
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Are you going to continue to move the goal post and then go all Sola Scriptura on me? The Church is very clear on its stance about homosexuality.
There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family. Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law. Homosexual acts “close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved”.(4)

Sacred Scripture condemns homosexual acts “as a serious depravity… (cf. Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10). This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered”.(5) This same moral judgment is found in many Christian writers of the first centuries(6) and is unanimously accepted by Catholic Tradition.
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The Church teaches that respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behaviour or to legal recognition of homosexual unions. The common good requires that laws recognize, promote and protect marriage as the basis of the family, the primary unit of society. Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour, with the consequence of making it a model in present-day society, but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity. The Church cannot fail to defend these values, for the good of men and women and for the good of society itself.
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http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
 
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Doesn’t the catechism say something about (paraphrased) homosexual acts never being condoned.

Civil same-sex union ceremony does just that.
 
Brittany said:
I’m afraid to even open the page. Fr. James Martin doesn’t have the best reputation when it comes to orthodoxy on these issues.
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Probably unlike many who will speak very critically of Father Martin, and accuse him of heterodoxy, I’ve actually read his book.

It’s absolutely orthodox. It definitely makes recommendations about how the Church can better approach homosexual persons. It also (and this is always overlooked by Father Martin’s critics) makes recommendations about how homosexual persons can better approach the church.

He’s pretty orthodox, when you get down to it.

If you disagree, point to something in his book that’s not orthodox.
 
Hey, I’m not the one openly rejecting Church dogma and giving into grave heresy that needs to be repented of.
 
thephilosopher6 said:
Fr. James Martin is a heretic, he actually advocates same sex unions.
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He is not. He is a priest in good standing. He does not advocate for same-sex unions. His book is not political in nature. Clearly you have not read his book. And it’s probably a bad idea to make pronouncements about what he, or it, says without actually reading it, don’t you think?
 
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Inisfallen said:
Probably unlike many who will speak very critically of Father Martin, and accuse him of heterodoxy, I’ve actually read his book.

It’s absolutely orthodox. It definitely makes recommendations about how the Church can better approach homosexual persons. It also (and this is always overlooked by Father Martin’s critics) makes recommendations about how homosexual persons can better approach the church.

He’s pretty orthodox, when you get down to it.

If you disagree, point to something in his book that’s not orthodox.
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Thank you. That’s one of the reasons I’m reading it, to see if the charges against him are true. A little over half-way through, and not one bit of heresy.
 
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