Father Michael Pfleger

[melensdad]

He doesn’t say that everyone else can’t “protect themselves”. He just argues that guns are doing more harm than good, creating an easy means to deadly violence rather than self protection.

You are correct that is what he is saying.

However, he is wrong. Just because he says it does not make it true! There are enough statistics out there that prove that guns are use more often to prevent crime/violence than to perpetuate it. Consequently he is repeating lies.

Further, the means that he is using to get rid of guns, will only take guns away from law abiding people. He is not addressing the guns owned by criminals.

Additionally, he should be looking at the root causes of the crime and that is gangs, single motherhood, fatherless children, sexual “freedom” and economic blight. Give children 2 loving parents and the odds of them being involved in violence or gangs drops dramatically. Show people that economic opportunity is something that is made, not something that come by raising the minimum wage, and people have hope for a better life. Show less tolerance of single motherhood and irresponsible fatherhood, attach a stigma to it again, and perhaps it will slowly become less common and eventually a rare event again, and the children raised in those conditions will be less likely to join gangs or act violently.

But Fr Pfleger simply goes after the honest gun owners and suggest that “sensible and reasonable” gun laws need to be enacted. . . in a city that has a complete ban on handguns and severe restrictions on other gun ownership. Seems like he is just grandstanding because the there is already near total gun prohibition in Chicago!

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

What melensdad said- I second it, big ttime.

 

[Walkerboy88]

No arguement, but he was NOT WITHIN his parish. Furthermore he is trying to influence things OUTSIDE of his parish. Are people outside his parish now allowed to have the same “right and duty” to “protect and improve the welfare of the people within” our parishes too?

You can’t have it both ways! You want him to be able to step out, but don’t want anyone else to be able to step in, or for that matter to step up and even refute.

Further, you conveniently keep avoiding my questions and simply restate, differently, your opinions. Bear in mind, I believe we are each entitled to our own opinions, but I do take exception to the fact that you want to stifle my ability to speak.

BTW, the “trace” data provided has been DEBUNKED by federal authorities as statistically inaccurate on several occasions under oath. In fact the whole concept of the trace data being used for “proof” of anything has been shown to be flawed and it is even criticized by groups like the Fraternal Order of Police . . . but the Brady Campaign keeps trotting out the same old lies.

The F.O.P…now THERE’S a trustworthy group. Talk about damaging video!! How do you give props to the “Brady Campaign” about rating Illinois as having some of the toughest gun laws in the country AND say they’re trotting out lies when it comes to tracing guns involved in murders to specific gunshops. Some of it is true…the rest are all lies.!!? No convincing you however. Nobodies right but gunowners. Dead kids!!? Oh such a shame,but it wasn’t my gun. Matter of fact,you can’t blame the gun!! It’s dangerous people with guns! That’s the answer!! Try that one! You know what…never mind…:doh2: :banghead:

 

[Walkerboy88]

You are correct that is what he is saying.

Further, the means that he is using to get rid of guns, will only take guns away from law abiding people. He is not addressing the guns owned by criminals.

Additionally, he should be looking at the root causes of the crime and that is gangs, single motherhood, fatherless children, sexual “freedom” and economic blight. Give children 2 loving parents and the odds of them being involved in violence or gangs drops dramatically. Show people that economic opportunity is something that is made, not something that come by raising the minimum wage, and people have hope for a better life. Show less tolerance of single motherhood and irresponsible fatherhood, attach a stigma to it again, and perhaps it will slowly become less common and eventually a rare event again, and the children raised in those conditions will be less likely to join gangs or act violently.

The usual response from someone rich enough to buy a rifle. “You lazy people are living off of my tax dollars.Pull yourself up by your bootstraps!!” If ignorance is bliss you must be cheesin"!! Can YOU live off of minimum wage!!? “GIVE” children 2 loving parents!!?! Yeah,let’s do that. GO GET DAD OUTTA JAIL!! Most of those people want a level playing field that they don’t have. They have people like you with their nose turned up,and illegal immigrants sneaking in the back door. Who cares about “THE MARKET” without a job!!?! It’s obvious YOU’VE never been in one of those peoples shoes! So you speak from a distance,as oppose to experience! As long as I can keep my AK-47 I don’t care what happens to “them”!! If they think about coming to my side of town I’LL BE READY FOR 'EM!!! :banghead:

 

[Walkerboy88]

.

There are “poor” in the 'burbs as well. You think certain city neighborhoods have a monopoly on it? It’s people with $$$ who live in the City. The City is too expensive for a lot of people, eps. buying property.

…they moved from the “burbs” 2 the city…to be closer to their jobs. Imagine the “luxury” of that.River Forrest,Willmette,ect…BURBS!!!
http://www.hesedhouse.org/

And yes, I do my part- which is more than I can see certain priests who would rather be in the spotlight than doing what needs to be done.

**Self-Righteous,what you give to UNCF once a year!!?. “What is that!!?” You stand back and judge because he disagrees with your smug NRA,and rifle groups.You do your part. What handing out a turkey once a year!!? Get real… **

So…those of us here who do not agree with Father Pfleger are not Christians?

Those who want him crucified because he doesn’t agree with YOU are the ones in question…I heard the guy online Sunday. People calling him a “N” lover,and saying things like “WE nee guns for people like YOU…” those who are large on protocol,and slim on principle.

He opened his mouth couse nobody else is!! But it’s not YOUR problem
****All because he opened his mouth and didn’t think first.

---

Agreed.

Agreed. Along with complaining about people who DO protect themselves as some sort of villians, when Father Pfleger has his own set of bodyguards. To my mind, that’s pretty hypocritical of him. Why is his life more valuable than mine, or my children’s?

**Because he doesn’t have a gun,and he has to deal with fools WITH **guns. If he’d just keep his mouth shut and stop ruffling peoples feathers,and speaking up for people that are ignored,he wouldn’t need bodyguards. But then he’d be a nice average dry religious guy. The world would be so much better if he were like that… Get real!!..:nope:

 

[chicago]

You are correct that is what he is saying.

However, he is wrong. Just because he says it does not make it true! There are enough statistics out there that prove that guns are use more often to prevent crime/violence than to perpetuate it. Consequently he is repeating lies.

I think that it could be said to be true in his community and experience, however.

Further, the means that he is using to get rid of guns, will only take guns away from law abiding people. He is not addressing the guns owned by criminals.

Perhaps he is at least in part addressing the matter, if indeed the guns owned in the community come second hand through these shops.

Additionally, he should be looking at the root causes of the crime and that is gangs, single motherhood, fatherless children, sexual “freedom” and economic blight. Give children 2 loving parents and the odds of them being involved in violence or gangs drops dramatically. Show people that economic opportunity is something that is made, not something that come by raising the minimum wage, and people have hope for a better life. Show less tolerance of single motherhood and irresponsible fatherhood, attach a stigma to it again, and perhaps it will slowly become less common and eventually a rare event again, and the children raised in those conditions will be less likely to join gangs or act violently.

Here I beleive that you are barking up the wrong tree. Fr. Pfleger is awful tough on a lot of stuff, holding people to high standards. There is generally much higher accountability at his parish than at your average middle class parish.

But Fr Pfleger simply goes after the honest gun owners and suggest that “sensible and reasonable” gun laws need to be enacted. . . in a city that has a complete ban on handguns and severe restrictions on other gun ownership. Seems like he is just grandstanding because the there is already near total gun prohibition in Chicago!

Though there is practical prohibition in the city, that doesn’t mean that the weapons sold in suburbs don’t make it into the city where they get eventually used.

 

[Sir_Knight]

**Because he doesn’t have a gun,and he has to deal with fools WITH **guns. If he’d just keep his mouth shut and stop ruffling peoples feathers,and speaking up for people that are ignored,he wouldn’t need bodyguards. But then he’d be a nice average dry religious guy. The world would be so much better if he were like that… Get real!!..:nope:

So the people who obey church teaching and take their responsibility of self defense seriously by being prepared with the best means available to them are “fools” and those that teach AGAINST Catholic Doctrine that people should not be armed with the best means possible are not fools?

I think you need to “Get Real”. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif

 

[Sir_Knight]

I think that it could be said to be true in his community and experience, however.

The reason that it is true in his community is because the law-abidding citizens are restricted from owning firearms and those the majority of guns are in the hands of criminals and used for illegal purposes. By further restricting gun ownership, that tread will only continue to shift in the wrong direction.

Perhaps he is at least in part addressing the matter, if indeed the guns owned in the community come second hand through these shops.

So if someone ELSE is breaking the law, you go after the person that isn’t? That would be like your car being stolen and used for a crime and then you not being allowed to purchase a car in the future.

Though there is practical prohibition in the city, that doesn’t mean that the weapons sold in suburbs don’t make it into the city where they get eventually used.

And the gunshop that legally sells guns in accordance with all guns laws is responsible for this how?

 

[Lonevoice]

I’m going to add Fr Pfleger to my prayers…

me too…

 

[melensdad]

You know what…never mind…:doh2: :banghead:

Walkerboy, you obviously are only here on CatholicAnswers to discuss you gun banning beliefs and probably only joined to insult folks who disagree with Fr Pfleger’s anti-Catholic activities (of which there are several). Every post you have made since you joined in on the topic of guns and Fr Pfleger’s attempts to remove them from the honest citizens. Your posts are filled with anger and you imply that I, and others, say things we do not say. Facts in your posts are non-existent, as is any concept of faith.

If you were serious about your faith, you might take a different approach to your posts.

But as for your posts, I will simply ignore them.

 

[chicago]

The reason that it is true in his community is because the law-abidding citizens are restricted from owning firearms and those the majority of guns are in the hands of criminals and used for illegal purposes. By further restricting gun ownership, that tread will only continue to shift in the wrong direction.

I disagree. When guns are in the hands of young gangbangers who are reckless, their fear will not be of someone else having a gun and shooting them. They ALREADY have that situation in existance because of all the gun violence, rival gangs, and such which exist. More guns in the community, therefore, will only continue to INCREASE the violence rather than lessen it.

So if someone ELSE is breaking the law, you go after the person that isn’t? That would be like your car being stolen and used for a crime and then you not being allowed to purchase a car in the future.

And the gunshop that legally sells guns in accordance with all guns laws is responsible for this how?

As Catholics, we are not libertarians. We ARE our brothers keepers. There is a certain responsibility, then, to take into account the consequences of our actions, even if they be non-direct or intended.

 

[chicago]

…and Fr Pfleger’s attempts to remove them from the honest citizens.

I think that he, ultimately, wants them out of the hands of the irresposible who use them in illegal proliferation to bring fear and havoc and danger upon his community and society as a whole.

Even if he would like all of us to “lay down our weapons” (which may well be the case) it is a legitimate desire in the purpuit of peace and Christian charity.

 

[melensdad]

I think that he, ultimately, wants them out of the hands of the irresposible who use them in illegal proliferation to bring fear and havoc and danger upon his community and society as a whole.

Well you think that, but his actions and his support does not indicate that.

What I don’t understand is why he views me, my family, and hundreds of thousands of others like us, as some sort of evil threat that he must constantly demean and insult. I got into gun ownership as a form of recreation. My wife and I started to trap shoot together. We both grew up in non-gun owning houses. Even lived in Chicago for a while before buying a house on the Indiana (sane) side of the state line. Now our daughter is 12 and is shooting a rifle and occasionally a handgun ***(both types of guns she shoots are those evil “semi-automatics” that the anti-gun crowd seems to love to hate ) *** Still when he speaks he berates, belittles and insults law abiding gun owners on a regular basis.

We don’t use our guns for violent purposes. We don’t even hunt with them. So you can keep defending what you think he says, but you need to listen to his actual words a little more closely. He is out to ban all guns from all people and when he is ‘speachifying’ his words and intent are very clear.

Below is my 12 year old daughter. That is a semi-automatic rifle, with a 30 round “high capacity” magazine. Both are on Fr Pfleger’s list of things to ban. Sure this rifle has a fancy wood stock and most people think “assault weapons” are ugly black guns, but the reality is they are functionally identical to this gun. So when you hear “assault weapon” just think to yourself he really wants to outlaw TARGET RIFLES and HUNTING GUNS too.

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[John_Higgins]

Arming everyone = OK Corral

One would think we’ve learn something in the intervening 125 years.

John

 

[melensdad]

Arming everyone = OK Corral

One would think we’ve learn something in the intervening 125 years.

John

John, you are not implying that by “arming” my daughter that she will become violent and turn into a criminal?

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BTW, what we know about the OK Corral is that it was an oddity and a rare event for its time. What we know about society then is that it was actually safer than it is now. But now we have all sorts of gun laws, controls and restrictions. It is society that has degenerated. Gun owners as a % of the total population has declined, but crime of all times have increased.

Perhaps we should reverse the gun ownership trend and the crime will go down. After all, more responsible gun owners are not going to be a threat to public safety and we know that guns are used to prevent more crime than to commit crime.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Arming everyone = OK Corral

One would think we’ve learn something in the intervening 125 years.

Not Arming People = VT Shooting, 9/11, etc.

One would think we’ve learn something that whenever stricter gun laws are passed, violence goes up and when less restrictive gun laws are enacted, violence goes down.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I disagree. When guns are in the hands of young gangbangers who are reckless, their fear will not be of someone else having a gun and shooting them. They ALREADY have that situation in existance because of all the gun violence, rival gangs, and such which exist. More guns in the community, therefore, will only continue to INCREASE the violence rather than lessen it.

It is ALREADY illegal for “young gangbangers” to be in possession of firearms for illegal purposes. If they are not obeying existing gun laws and the government is unable to enforce those existing gun laws, how are they going to be able to enforce even MORE gun laws? And who is going to obey those additional guns laws? Certainly not the “young gangbangers”. Why should they obey additional gun laws if they are not obeying existing gun laws?

So, you end up with a situation where these new restrictive gun laws will be obeyed only by law-abidding citizens who are not the problem in the first place.

And what has that done to solve the problem? Absolutely nothing. If anything, it has made the problem worse since it has left the guns in the hands of the bad guys and taken more guns out of the hands of the good guys leaving them even more defenseless.

As Catholics, we are not libertarians. We ARE our brothers keepers. There is a certain responsibility, then, to take into account the consequences of our actions, even if they be non-direct or intended.

Yes, we ARE our brothers keepers. We have a GRAVE duty to not only defend ourselves but other innocent individuals from danger. A GRAVE duty has to be performed with the BEST means available. In MOST cases, the BEST means of defense will be with a firearm. To RESTRICT our ability to perform this GRAVE DUTY is to limit our ability to be our brother’s keepers.

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[chicago]

Not Arming People = VT Shooting, 9/11, etc.

Not arming people = 9/11?

What are the gun laws like in Virgina? How would that have necessarily stopped a madman? He was either in legal possession, in which case they could have been, also, or he was in illegal posssession (as could have been any of the others). He was also determined and willing to die. Which means that he would have likely done what he did to some extent, anyway.

One would think we’ve learn something that whenever stricter gun laws are passed, violence goes up and when less restrictive gun laws are enacted, violence goes down.

When we are talking about determined madmen or gangs, it won’t make a lick of difference. They will do what they are bound to do because they are stuck in their own mindset which is not reasonable, but a sinful slide into obliteration.

When you have domestic shootings, neither will arming more people likely lead to lessened violence.

It’s random crime in which firearms play only a part where the presence of more guns might be a deterance.

 

[chicago]

Yes, we ARE our brothers keepers. We have a GRAVE duty to not only defend ourselves but other innocent individuals from danger. A GRAVE duty has to be performed with the BEST means available. In MOST cases, the BEST means of defense will be with a firearm. To RESTRICT our ability to perform this GRAVE DUTY is to limit our ability to be our brother’s keepers.

So, in places in the world where firearms are not prevalent or omnipresent among the population, is the society failing to meet their grave duties?

 

[John_Higgins]

Okay, Sir, imagine all the students in the Virginia Tech scenario armed. Cute. I’m a former police officer and I have always felt the fewer people armed the better. There are several police shootings by accident reported every year, and we had to qualify monthly. People tend to shoot at shots. Wow!

I’m only really concerned about handguns in this thread. My grandfather taught my mom to hunt. They shot birds together. I have no problem with non-wasteful hunting. It’s handguns that concern me. I can’t imagine a “militia” (cf 2nd Amendment) made up of “handgunners”.

John