Father Michael Pfleger

[melensdad]

It’s handguns that concern me. I can’t imagine a “militia” (cf 2nd Amendment) made up of “handgunners”.

John

Given a modern society and street to street fighting, it strikes me that the best weapon to have for a citizen militia would be handguns. Again, the concept of the 2nd Amendment is to prevent the government from grasping too much power.

Let us not forget the words of our founding fathers in our Declaration of Independance:But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right**, it is their duty, to throw off such Government**, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Walkerboy, you obviously are only here on CatholicAnswers to discuss you gun banning beliefs and probably only joined to insult folks who disagree with Fr Pfleger’s anti-Catholic activities (of which there are several). Every post you have made since you joined in on the topic of guns and Fr Pfleger’s attempts to remove them from the honest citizens. Your posts are filled with anger and you imply that I, and others, say things we do not say. Facts in your posts are non-existent, as is any concept of faith.

If you were serious about your faith, you might take a different approach to your posts.

But as for your posts, I will simply ignore them.

I concur, and have added him to my very short “ignore” list. Obviously, the young man has never been to Rockford, Aurora, or a host of other “suburbs” that are really small cities with city problems- just like the Windy Center.

Given a modern society and street to street fighting, it strikes me that the best weapon to have for a citizen militia would be handguns. **Again, the concept of the 2nd Amendment is to prevent the government from grasping too much power. **Emphasis mine.

Let us not forget the words of our founding fathers in our Declaration of Independance:But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right**, it is their duty, to throw off such Government**, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Eloquent. And your daughter is a cutie!.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Okay, Sir, imagine all the students in the Virginia Tech scenario armed. Cute. I’m a former police officer and I have always felt the fewer people armed the better. There are several police shootings by accident reported every year, and we had to qualify monthly. People tend to shoot at shots. Wow!

Your statements do not reflect what actually happens. A similar situation to the one that happened at Virginia Tech occurred on January 16th, 2002 at Appalachian Law School in Grundy, Virginia. A disgruntled former student began a similar shooting spree. The difference in this case was that the attack was stopped by three individuals, two of whom were legally armed with handguns. Unfortunately, the attack was not stopped until three people had been killed and three more wounded. Why did it take so long to stop the attack? The good guys had to retrieve their guns from their parked cars before they could confront the gunman because ALS was a gun-free zone.

They didn’t shoot each other or others. They didn’t even shoot the attacker but because they had guns, they were able to stop the killing. – Source.

 

[John_Higgins]

Sir Knight:

Your statements do not reflect what actually happens.

Not really, my statements don’t reflect what happened once. Ask urban police officers what THEY think of everyone being armed.

John

 

[Sir_Knight]

Not really, my statements don’t reflect what happened once.

I can show you several more documented cases with similars outcomes. Can you show me one DOCUMENTED cased which SUPPORTS your outcome?

Ask urban police officers what THEY think of everyone being armed.

It just so happened that I was in a conversation with a LEO at our parish festival last week who stopped by the KofC booth that I was manning and we some how ended up on the topic of CCW and he said that he was in favor of it because, and in his exact words, " … you may be the only back-up that I have for miles …" – so, not all LEOs share your view either.

And, as I’ve demonstrated above, what you and other urban police officers THINK, does not actually line up with what has been shown to actually happen.

 

[Sir_Knight]

So, in places in the world where firearms are not prevalent or omnipresent among the population, is the society failing to meet their grave duties?

They are required to protect themselves with the BEST means AVAILABLE to them depending on the situation and they should strive toward making the BEST means available to them if those best means are not available to them.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Not arming people = 9/11?

All it would have taken was one armed passenger or one armed crew member on each plane and none of this would have happened.

What are the gun laws like in Virgina?

They are very liberal but VT, being a learning institution, had it’s own set of laws restricting firearms – they law disarmed the victims and failed to protect them. This has been repeated over and over again – most violent attacks happen in places where firearms are restricted.

How would that have necessarily stopped a madman? He was either in legal possession, in which case they could have been, also, or he was in illegal posssession (as could have been any of the others). He was also determined and willing to die. Which means that he would have likely done what he did to some extent, anyway.

As I have already documented earlier in this thread, when similar situation to the VT shooting happened, armed citizens WERE able to stop the madman with minimum violence.

When we are talking about determined madmen or gangs, it won’t make a lick of difference. They will do what they are bound to do because they are stuck in their own mindset which is not reasonable, but a sinful slide into obliteration.

Again, actual events show different outcomes.

When you have domestic shootings, neither will arming more people likely lead to lessened violence.

But it has.

 

[chicago]

The head of St. Sabina Church on the South Side has a new fight. Tuesday night he led a march to call for new measures to keep school kids safe from gun violence. Thirty-one plywood caskets were carried by 124 young people in a march attended by politicians, moral leaders and community members.

CBS 2 Chief Correspondent Jay Levine reports.

cbs2chicago.com/video/?id=29629@wbbm.dayport.com

Community activists on Tuesday will lead a march to honor the 31 Chicago Public Schools students who have fallen victim to violence in the past school year.

The Rev. Michael Pfleger of St. Sabina Church will lead a silent march on Tuesday evening starting at his church, at 78th Place and Throop Street in the Auburn-Gresham neighborhood.

Teenagers will carry 31 caskets to represent each student.

Chicago Teacher’s Union President Marilyn Stewart and the parents of some victims plan to join in.

wbbm780.com/pages/571939.php?contentType=4&contentId=601700

Post march coverage tape at:

wgntv.trb.com/

 

[chicago]

They are required to protect themselves with the BEST means AVAILABLE to them depending on the situation and they should strive toward making the BEST means available to them if those best means are not available to them.

So if you have a relatively peaceful place where guns aren’t commonly owned by everyone and gun violence isn’t a major problem, the best thing to do is get them all guns?

 

[Sir_Knight]

cbs2chicago.com/video/?id=29629@wbbm.dayport.com

wbbm780.com/pages/571939.php?contentType=4&contentId=601700

Post march coverage tape at:

wgntv.trb.com/

Everyone agrees that gun violence is wrong but there are already laws in place against that. If those laws are not being enforced, how are more laws going to be enforced?

And since it is already illegal, how is taking guns out of the hands of law-abidding citizens and leaving them in the hands of criminals going to help.

 

[Sir_Knight]

So if you have a relatively peaceful place where guns aren’t commonly owned by everyone and gun violence isn’t a major problem, the best thing to do is get them all guns?

Didn’t Christ command His followers to protect themselves even if they had to sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38; cf. 2 Corinthians 11:26-27 – )? Here the “sword” (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler’s equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. Pretty much the equivelant of what a gun is today. A plain reading of the passage indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense.

 

[chicago]

Everyone agrees that gun violence is wrong but there are already laws in place against that. If those laws are not being enforced, how are more laws going to be enforced?

And since it is already illegal, how is taking guns out of the hands of law-abidding citizens and leaving them in the hands of criminals going to help.

I don’t know that the rallly was necessarily about gun control legislation, primarily. It was a memorial to the deceased over this past year as well as a call to an end to gun violence, first and foremost. Quite dramatic imagery with the kids carrying coffins, frankly. They said it was all the kids’ idea. Indeed, their shirts read “Stop Killing Kids”.

Pfleger has had limited success urging adults to search their own homes for weapons they may not know their children have, but spoke with CBS 2 late last month, he worried about what it would take to stop the killing.

“These coffins will remain here at St. Sabina’s through… Fr. Pfleger says they will serve as a reminder of kids who died much too soon, much too violently.”

 

[chicago]

Here the “sword” (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler’s equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. Pretty much the equivelant of what a gun is today.

Do you also advocate (I ask because of your user name) that the Knights of Columbus replace their traditional swords with handguns?

 

[melensdad]

It seems to me that this discussion had degenerated away from the faults of Fr Pfleger and is now simply an argument about gun control.

Let us not forget, this discussion started with Fr Pfleger’s “snuff out” threats when he seemingly called for violence against the owner of Chuck’s Gun Shop. Let us also not forget, regardless of if you are pro-or-anti-gun that the owner of that store was not accused of any crimes.

It was Fr Pfleger who brought this upon himself because of his own action. Fr. Pfleger’s actions resulted in being rebuked by the Cardinal because the Cardinal felt he was wrong, and stated so.
"John Higgins:

Ask urban police officers what THEY think of everyone being armed.

I know several officers, they believe the gun laws in Illinois are insane!

When you have domestic shootings, neither will arming more people likely lead to lessened violence.

Glad you brought this up. I know a young lady who shot her father. Clearly a case of domestic violence. He was drunk. He no longer lived in the house. He had not paid child support for at least a half dozen years. There was a restraining order preventing him from coming near the house. He tore the screen door off the house and was breaking through the front door. Inside were 2 teenage girls afraid for their lives. One of the girls had the strength of mindset to get their mom’s gun and run out the back of the house just as her dad burst through the front door. She ran around the house and confronted him as he was beginning to beat her sister. All the while he was shouting murderous threats. She shot him. He did not die, but it stopped what many witnesses believe was about to be a double murder. This in a blighted urban area, with divorced Catholic parents and 3 girls in Catholic high school.

So we have a case of a domestic shooting here, seems to me the outcome is about as good as you would pray for.

 

[chicago]

So we have a case of a domestic shooting here, seems to me the outcome is about as good as you would pray for.

I wouldn’t consider that so much a case of domestic shooting as self defense. A domestic shooting would have been if the dad, undivorced, shot the kids. Or if the kids, in their general frustration, had found a drunken dad’s gun in the drawer and shot him.

That said, I would have prayed for a much better outcome. I would have liked to see the kids run out the other door and escape, call the cops to come restrain him and get him off to jail without having to shoot him. Obviously, this was possible seeing as how the girl who did shoot him did just that sort of run around in your description. Further, I would have prayed that he could receive real help, mend his life, and maybe reconcile with his family rather than just rampaging to the point of finding himself shot.

 

[melensdad]

I wouldn’t consider that so much a case of domestic shooting as self defense. A domestic shooting would have been if the dad, undivorced, shot the kids.

Domestic shooting cannot also be self defense? Come off it. You only want to classify domestic shootings as criminal events, and you want to exclude all the defensive events. You are splitting hairs in how you define things.

By doing what you are doing you can totally ignore the facts about gun ownership where guns are used far more often to STOP crimes/attacks than they are used to commit them. Most times the presence of the gun stops the attack/crime without a shot being fired, I suppose you would say that is not the use of a gun?

Let me make is very simple.

• **Girl shoots father who was beating her sister. **
• **Attack stopped. **
• **Girl hailed as hero by family, neighbors & police
  **
• Father jailed on assault, attempted murder charges dropped.
• District Attorney says girl did the right thing.

 

[chicago]

I’d prefer if the man and the family as a whole were provided with appropriate help so that things never got to that point in the first place. The fact that they weren’t shows a failure in society.

And what’s to say that dad won’t try this again after getting off with such a light sentence? He may want to return with a gun of his own to kill next time. I hope they’ll be watching him.

 

[melensdad]

He may want to return with a gun of his own to kill next time. I hope they’ll be watching him.

He is not allowed to have a gun.

But as with most domestic battery/violence issues, the police are only there after the fact. This situation was several years ago, but the abuse started many years prior, and did not end with that incident. Which is why the mom has a gun. Then again, if Fr Pfleger had his way, she would not and might well be dead right now.

 

[chicago]

He is not allowed to have a gun.

That doesn’t stop anyone else.

But as with most domestic battery/violence issues, the police are only there after the fact. This situation was several years ago, but the abuse started many years prior, and did not end with that incident.

Exactly my point. The problems aren’t a matter of anything guns can stop. They run much deeper. We must address them at their source.

Which is why the mom has a gun. Then again, if Fr Pfleger had his way, she would not and might well be dead right now.

If Fr. Pfleger really had his way, dad might either be in jail yet on a more serious charge or he might find God and get some assistance. You’re simplictically reducing everything to a matter of gun laws when Fr. Pfleger is a minister who is trying to get at things much deeper, ultimately.

 

[Sir_Knight]

He is not allowed to have a gun.

So, you admit that gun laws do not stop criminals from obtaining and using guns! Then tell me what good Fr. Pfleger is doing by seeking more restrictive gun laws which will only be obeyed by law-abidding citizens who are not the source of the problem in the first place?