Father Ripperger Four Stages of Courtship

[PolycarpOfSmyrna]

Above is the video, in case you didn’t watch it. So, this is a very popular video in traditional Catholic circles, the four stages of courtship, and it comes with some interesting points. The principles behind the whole thing, such as virtue searching, are fantastic and definitely need to be kept in mind by every couple there is. However, I think the execution proposed is quite poor. In my opinion, it reflects a spirit present in many traditional Catholics of wishing to go back in time, instead of addressing the current world. Yes, modernity is bad. But unfortunately we can’t actually go bad to the supposedly “good, old days”. Ideas such as friendship as first stage, asking for the father’s permission and no physical intimacy during courtship both alienate many youngsters from both genders today, and is more suited to a fairytale than the real world if we are completely honest. Besides, it’s not like this very strict method is the only way to be chaste until marriage; it is not the orthodox method by excellence for courtship at all. I think if we really need to address these issues to the young in an effective way, we need to transcend modernity (rejecting its values), but not resorting to the past. We need a new presentation, one that can actually appeal for current times. Same principles, very different execution. What is your opinion on the topic?

 

[jeannetherese]

I think if we really need to address these issues to the young in an effective way, we need to transcend modernity (rejecting its values), but not resorting to the past. We need a new presentation, one that can actually appeal for current times.

Would you care to describe your methodology and explain how it differs from others and what makes it superior?

 

[Lea101]

I don’t know exactly how it will look like in today’s world. I have some protestant friends who follow this sort of template and I have felt that it looked too mechanical from the outside (they would have meetings with both families to discuss their relationship). But if they’re happy with it, then who cares tbh. Personally I would not like it at all if someone asked my dad’s permission, or wanted to get our families and church involved in ‘approving’ a relationship.

I think the younger Catholic crowd has adopted their own ‘dating strategy’ that has a mix of old and new. They’re encouraging people to throw out the whole ‘we’re just talking/texting’ stage and encourage men to ask women out on dates instead. But the relationship in itself doesn’t look terribly dissimilar from a typical one outside of Catholicism, they just don’t engage in sexual activities.

 

[1ke]

Ideas such as friendship as first stage, asking for the father’s permission and no physical intimacy during courtship both alienate many youngsters from both genders today,

It’s a past that didn’t exist.

My in-laws dated in the 50s, and they went out alone, there was no “permission” from dad. Same with my own grandparents and parents.

There are these false narratives going around about Catholic teaching on dating, marriage, and women. So called “traditional roles”.

It’s all fiction.

 

[PolycarpOfSmyrna]

Oh, I don’t have one. If I had, I would’ve cracked the code or something like that. I just have an idea on what it should look like. What I mean is that there must not be only this method by Father Rippegger or else you get sinful relationships among boyfriends and girlfriends.

Allow me to elaborate on this though. What is the point of asking the permission of the father to marry a 30 year old woman who is a lawyer, medical doctor, etc.? Do you see how this method is really dependant, in a way, on women not being in the working place? But really, if I had a formalised method, it would have the same principles, but a different execution and maybe less strict rules.

 

[PolycarpOfSmyrna]

Yeah, yeah, this makes sense. People keep talking about the old days as if it was crowded with saints in traditional circles. Do you have any opinion on what is needed for dating / courtship?

 

[JulianN]

This video showcases some of Fr. Ripperger’s …interesting…ideas.

For example, his assertion that the father must give permission and has the right to end the courtship of his adult daughter is completely contrary to Church teaching.

It’s one more example of why he should be taken with a healthy dose of salt.

(Edited to remove references to Fr. Ripperger being a convert)

 

[1ke]

Yeah, yeah, this makes sense.

Over and above all the stuff he says in the video about the father giving permission to marry, walking her down the aisle, giving her away— NONE of that is Church teaching. In fact the opposite. The marriage rite does not contain any of that.

Do you have any opinion on what is needed for dating / courtship?

Sure.

First raise up sons and daughters with virtue— that part is on target. Teach them the purpose of dating and the purpose of marriage. Talk about all these things in their formative years. Set appropriate boundaries in the teen years. Help them form their consciences. Guide them into adulthood.

As adults, then it becomes a process of discernment. A vocation discernment. One you do jointly with a prospective spouse.

I was perfectly capable of discerning marriage with my husband on my own, no need for my dad to do anything.

 

[PolycarpOfSmyrna]

For example, his assertion that the father must give permission and has the right to end the courtship of his adult daughter is completely contrary to Church teaching.

Could you elaborate on that? I’m very curious. What is the actual Church teaching on this?

 

[PolycarpOfSmyrna]

Over and above all the stuff he says in the video about the father giving permission to marry, walking her down the aisle, giving her away— NONE of that is Church teaching. In fact the opposite. The marriage rite does not contain any of that.

I actually realised he did not talk about the actual Catholic rite, he just addressed the stereotypical marriage. I don’t know if he did that on purpose, but in any case this was seemly a “powerful” point because people are very attracted to understanding supposed symbols.

First raise up sons and daughters with virtue— that part is on target. Teach them the purpose of dating and the purpose of marriage. Talk about all these things in their formative years. Set appropriate boundaries in the teen years. Help them form their consciences. Guide them into adulthood.

As adults, then it becomes a process of discernment. A vocation discernment. One you do jointly with a prospective spouse.

That sounds very reasonable. Do you have any opinion on this “no physical affection” during courtship as well?

 

[1ke]

What is the actual Church teaching on this?

From the CCC:

2230 When they become adults, children have the right and duty to choose their profession and state of life. They should assume their new responsibilities within a trusting relationship with their parents, willingly asking and receiving their advice and counsel. Parents should be careful not to exert pressure on their children either in the choice of a profession or in that of a spouse. This necessary restraint does not prevent them - quite the contrary from giving their children judicious advice, particularly when they are planning to start a family.

There is literally nothing in church teaching about parental permission for marriage, and nothing in canon law on marriage besides that which pertains to the marriage of legal minors.

In the marriage rite itself there is no “giving away” of the bride. It is the bride and groom who give consent, not parents.

As far back as Church history on marriage, parents did not and could not consent for their children nor did their lack of consent prohibit marriage.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Over and above all the stuff he says in the video about the father giving permission to marry, walking her down the aisle, giving her away— NONE of that is Church teaching. In fact the opposite. The marriage rite does not contain any of that.

Father Ripperger seems to be one of those guys who thinks that if he talks about an idealized past enough eventually it will materialize.

 

[1ke]

Do you have any opinion on this “no physical affection” during courtship as well?

Yes. Follow the commandments, which don’t prohibit physical affection, but do prohibit that which is proper to marriage (genital intimacy of all types).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

This video showcases some of Fr. Ripperger’s …interesting…ideas that I believe come from his Protestant background.

Do you have a source for Fr Ripperger being a Protestant originally? I have read this now several times and have yet to find any biographical materials saying he converted.

 

[PolycarpOfSmyrna]

Just what I thought, thank you!

 

[JulianN]

Do you have a source for Fr Ripperger being a Protestant originally? I have read this now several times and have yet to find any biographical materials saying he converted.

You know, my bad. I got it from this site, and I should know better and fact-check. I’ll edit my post.

Although, actually, this makes his statements even less understandable. Surely he knows that parents cannot give permission nor withhold it when it comes to choosing a spouse.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

With respect to fathers controlling the courtship of Catholic daughters, having to approve of a man asking them out, etc., this is what I understand from my mom (Born 1925) and other Catholics I knew of similar age, plus cultural references from their generation.

In the years roughly prior to the 1950s (but continuing in some places up to the 1980s or so), many Catholic families in USA were of ethnic European background, or Latino. The families often had some dating practices based on their culture. In many cases, though not all, the father (if indeed there was a father living and in the home) was quite strict and the daughters were not permitted to date men the father did not know or approve of. If the guy was from the neighborhood, the odds are the parents knew him and his family already, and had an opinion of whether he was okay for daughter to date and possibly marry. If the guy was not from the neighborhood, the guy would be expected to spend time with the girl at her parents’ home, such as by coming to dinner, visiting her at the house before they ventured out on dates, which likely would not be very far and not keeping her out too late.

Daughters were also usually expected to live in their parents’ house, or the house of another relative, until they married. If a daughter moved out on her own, many people would question her morals. Although this seems to have gotten a bit more relaxed by the time of WWII when everybody was moving all over the place due to war work.

By the time I started dating in the late 1970s, if you were a teen, most parents just expected to meet the guy before their teen daughter went out with him. But there were some Catholic fathers, often Eastern European, who would expect the guy to ask permission to date the daughter. I knew girls in the late 70s who had to get such permission from their dads or they weren’t allowed out. By that point daughters also moved out on their own frequently once they reached age 18, although some fathers and mothers didn’t like it. There was also an expectation that if you were dating someone you were serious about maybe marrying, you would be introduced to their parents and family.

I stress that all of this was cultural, not “Catholic teaching” except if the dating couple was circumventing the expected rules in order to engage in immoral behavior. There were also plenty of Romeo and Juliet type situations where dad didn’t approve but daughter would sneak out and meet him anyway.

 

[JulianN]

And it can be the opposite. If my husband or son-in-law had done that, they might not have gotten the answer they did from their wives!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Surely he knows that parents cannot give permission nor withhold it when it comes to choosing a spouse.

They can’t control the behavior of their adult kids, but it’s generally considered a nice thing in my experience for a guy to ask for the girl’s parents’ approval. Although I remember my mom telling me how a guy, when she was an older teen, asked her parent for approval to court her, when my mom already knew she didn’t want to marry him. Which was awkward as mom was very embarrassed at having to explain that this guy had gotten really ahead of himself. Fortunately my grandma was very diplomatic and handled the whole thing nicely.

By the time I got engaged my dad had been dead quite a long time and my mother had seen so much of my fiance as we’d been dating 10 years, it had turned into more of a “when are you two going to just get married already” than needing to ask for approval. If I had only known him a few months or even a couple years when we got engaged I would have definitely expected us to ask the parents for their blessing. It would have been the polite thing to do, even if they refused and we got married anyway without it in the end.

 

[1ke]

You’d think. Because i grew up Protestant and I know Catholic teaching and I didn’t even go to priest-school.