Father Ripperger Four Stages of Courtship

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If the priest was a spiritual director and knows you well, I can see asking for advice, guidance and blessings, but for his permission?

Why?
 
Sarcelle said:
If the priest was a spiritual director and knows you well, I can see asking for advice, guidance and blessings, but for his permission?
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Sure, because that’s asking his advice on whether dating is a good idea for you. But permission to ask a woman out? I agree: why?
 
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I’m not sure, Sarcelle.
I think that, perhaps, people have had several generations to observe the workings out of the sexual revolution and are looking for other ways of relating.
some of this might involve looking to the past, some might involve creating some sort of hybrid model or models, and some might be looking for fresh alternatives.
I associate with many people but can only think of three who might be described as “fundamentalist”.
On the other hand, Washington state just had a petition to create a referendum which would enable people to vote on whether or not they really wanted the latest sex ed program provided by planned parenthood et al in their public schools.
Despite covid isolation and mandatory lockdowns on churches and large public gatherings where it is easier to obtain signatures, the petition was able to garner a record number of signatures, -nearly twice what was needed to put the referendum on the ballot-and this in a fairly liberal state.
I would not be surprised to learn that fundamentalists are questioning current practices but I also would not be surprised to find non-fundamentalists asking questions as well.
I didn’t watch all of the video by Father Ripperger. I did watch the first 30 minutes. I though the focus upon virtue (especially temperance) and self-restraint was a good idea. if you watched the two videos offered by tisbearself, they echoed this call using secular terms-think about theperson you are going to ask out, take care to ensure she doesn’t feel neglected, show courtesy, be respectful (prompt). Both videos made some good points are could be useful to those thinking about dating.
Both could be useful to Christians and to non-Christians.
I found the information on emotional bonding interesting, especially as I thought about our hook up culture.
I could imagine myself adopting aspects of both videos for personal consideration, or discussing them with friends without laughing them of or disrespecting them as associated with some sort of extreme school of thought.
I would anticipate peple tailoring the advice to their own situations-including timelines and determinations about hugging or kissing, but I would not disregard the general message that dating is special and, when well done, involves caring for another person.
 
RC67 said:
Ah yes, asking the father for permission . . . I did the traditional thing 40 years ago and on a deep sea fishing trip with my future father-in-law asked for his permission to marry his daughter. He said, quite candidly, “I don’t know, I’d think about it if I were you. When you get married you lose a lot of your freedom.” (In his defense, this was after a few beers.)
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Asking for permission to marry is one thing, although I think most people these days see it as more seeking the fathers blessing as opposed to his permission. Asking permission to go see a movie is something else.

That must have been quite an exchange with your father in law… 😅
 
This was along the lines of how I was feeling about the role of the father the courtship process he is advocating. When I listened to it, I imagined this being a process and practice between a couple that are both traditional Catholics and both come from supportive, traditional Catholic families that all share the same values. Honestly, I’m not going to knock it in that regard. But it gets more complicated when we look at the wider pool of Catholics trying to find a suitable spouse.

What I do appreciate about what he’s saying is that it does give a certain purpose or structure to the dating process, and it helps people avoid the pitfalls that come from having too much emphasis on attraction and romantic love and not enough on someone’s qualities as a person and suitability as a spouse.

I don’t think my dad would have given a single ding dong who I wanted to marry or interfered in any regard, but I do wish that I had followed a wiser structure when I dated in my 20s.

Personally I do support friendship at the first stage. I don’t see the point of romantic dating unless both have serious intentions. I totally regret forcing the issue of romantic love with someone who clearly wasn’t emotionally ready, and I was too immature to have any prudence and patience. I think it would have saved me from 3 wasted years of my life of being a complete bonehead.
 
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When I see jr high kids “dating”, I’m thinking “what are you doing?”
All they’re doing is setting themselves up for temptation and becoming jaded too soon.
 
Aulef said:
I am dating the Traditional way, based on books from before VC II.
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My parents and grandparents, devout Catholics all, would not have recognized what you are calling Traditional. This simply wasn’t a reality.
 
JulianN said:
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Aulef:
I am dating the Traditional way, based on books from before VC II.
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My parents and grandparents, devout Catholics all, would not have recognized what you are calling Traditional. This simply wasn’t a reality.
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What years were your grandparents dating? Is it possible there was some form of courtship before that? Is it okay with you if the OP wants to follow some form of traditional courtship? It’s not that uncommon among counter-cultural religious conservatives.
For example, this book was published in 2013:




 
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I think one thing more people need to acknowledge also is that there’s not going to be a single dating model that works for all ages and states of life.

Take the following single women: a 16 year old high school student, a 22 year old in college, a 36 year old professional, and a 67 year old widow. Could you really give one set of dating rules to all of them that would be specific enough to be useful? I doubt it.

I think a lot of errors come from people writing rules with the idea of high school or at most college age young people dating, and then trying to apply them across the board. Many of these rules are simply ridiculous when applied to older adults, and it’s normal and healthy for relationships between older people (who have more life experience and are better at knowing their own minds) to move faster than relationships between younger people. And much of this “traditional courtship” model is simply impossible for an adult woman who may very well not even be living near her parents.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
In the years roughly prior to the 1950s (but continuing in some places up to the 1980s or so), many Catholic families in USA were of ethnic European background, or Latino. The families often had some dating practices based on their culture. In many cases, though not all, the father (if indeed there was a father living and in the home) was quite strict and the daughters were not permitted to date men the father did not know or approve of. If the guy was from the neighborhood, the odds are the parents knew him and his family already, and had an opinion of whether he was okay for daughter to date and possibly marry. If the guy was not from the neighborhood, the guy would be expected to spend time with the girl at her parents’ home, such as by coming to dinner, visiting her at the house before they ventured out on dates, which likely would not be very far and not keeping her out too late.

Daughters were also usually expected to live in their parents’ house, or the house of another relative, until they married. If a daughter moved out on her own, many people would question her morals. Although this seems to have gotten a bit more relaxed by the time of WWII when everybody was moving all over the place due to war work.

By the time I started dating in the late 1970s, if you were a teen, most parents just expected to meet the guy before their teen daughter went out with him. But there were some Catholic fathers, often Eastern European, who would expect the guy to ask permission to date the daughter. I knew girls in the late 70s who had to get such permission from their dads or they weren’t allowed out. By that point daughters also moved out on their own frequently once they reached age 18, although some fathers and mothers didn’t like it. There was also an expectation that if you were dating someone you were serious about maybe marrying, you would be introduced to their parents and family.
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I like this very much, and I am perfectly okay with there being at least an implicit “getting approval” (I won’t say “permission”) from the parents. I always made it a point to get and to stay on the good side of the parents of any young woman I dated, but then again, I was always the “nice Catholic boy”. I’m totally good with the Eastern European fathers you mention.
 
Culturally those guys were used to their daughters, who might still be minors, dating guys who were a few years older than them, often legal adults who had done or were doing military service or working jobs with the dad or with friends of the dad. So naturally they wanted to keep an eye on the guy and make sure he was doing right by the daughter who might be only 16 while the guy is 20 or 21 and probably seriously looking for a wife.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
Culturally those guys were used to their daughters, who might still be minors, dating guys who were a few years older than them, often legal adults who had done or were doing military service or working jobs with the dad or with friends of the dad. So naturally they wanted to keep an eye on the guy and make sure he was doing right by the daughter who might be only 16 while the guy is 20 or 21 and probably seriously looking for a wife.
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I can’t blame them one bit.
 
27lw said:
What years were your grandparents dating? Is it possible there was some form of courtship before that? Is it okay with you if the OP wants to follow some form of traditional courtship?
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The OP can do whatever he likes. But labeling something as Traditional ( capital T) implies that this is actually Catholic tradition in some Church-sanctioned way. He also implies that tradition somehow ended with Vatican II. Neither of those things are true.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
By the time I started dating in the late 1970s, if you were a teen, most parents just expected to meet the guy before their teen daughter went out with him.
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It’s a cultural thing really. Different cultures see this all from a different angle. I’m Syro-Malabar Catholic, and dating in our teens is really frowned upon in our culture. I’m sure in this age of social media and all, most kids do it secretly. All of this is cultural stuff, and not a Catholic teaching. I’m sure Asian, African or Middle-eastern Catholics do things based on their culture in regards to dating and courting.
 
babochka said:
We also weren’t “friends first”.
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I had to be amused by this. My wife and I most definitely were not “friends first”, and I am not sure I could say we ever have been, exactly. When we first met, we didn’t like each other. It wasn’t repulsion. She was beautiful; very Sophia Loren-like (that dates me, I guess.) But I was being a huge flirt toward other girls at an election victory party, and she got tired of it and started undercutting eveyrthing I did and said.

Eventually I just took her aside and asked her not to do that anymore. She said she wouldn’t if I would quit being such a big phony with women. I was a bit taken aback and told her I wouldn’t be one around her, but I would make no promises otherwise. Eventually, we agreed that we would both be the same way. We both went out with others, but it didn’t seem much good. We ultimately agreed to be “confidants”; always being honest with each other.

I can’t say that we were ever “friends”. But we have always been “confidants”.

I did ask her father for his permission to marry her. She and her sister were in the next room giggling fit to die over it. But I was determined, and I think he appreciated the courtesy.
 
I think one of the changes here is it’s less common now for kids in america to be dating in their teens, or if they are it’s not seen as serious. My understanding is most parents of teens still want to know who their children are dating. But marriage in the USA is now usually happening in the late 20’s. It’s very different for an adult man and woman to be seeking that sort of permission.
 
Sarcelle said:
I’m kind of surprised that this whole wackadoodle idea of “courtship” has found traction among Catholics.

I’ve seen it among the purity movement of Christian Reconstructionists but never expected it to be adopted by Catholics.
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The funny part is that Catholics are behind the 8-ball on this one. The purity movement and eschewing dating in favor of “courtship” was all the rage among conservative Protestant Christians in the 1990s and early 2000s (see “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”). But it has mostly fallen out of favor in that same demographic because everyone came realize that it was seriously problematic for a numbet of reasons.
 
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