Father Ripperger Four Stages of Courtship

[PolycarpOfSmyrna]

It seems to me that it is the case with many American traditionalists to have strong influences of Puritanism. After all, Puritanism is simply transforming something that is morally neutral and turning it into morally evil. Looking at this discussion, it seems to be the case that this kind of thing has lots of influence on how traditionalists shape their lifestyle and how they advocate that to be Traditional with the capital t. It’s not like the four stages of courtship by this priest are going to be found on authoritative teaching of the Church or anything. It’s just an approach.

 

[jeannetherese]

Here is a fascinating take on courtship which draws from the teachings of Pope Francis and Saint Josemaria Escriva:

https://opusdei.org/en-us/article/courtship-makes-good-sense/

From the article:
" Courtship helps avoid two extremes that seem to blight relationships today. It ensures that a couple does not rush into marriage, compelled by emotion and infatuation; it helps them enter into marriage with eyes wide open and not blinded by “love.” Courtship also ensures that the couple doesn’t get stuck in a rut of endless hook-ups with no commitment. Regarding this latter phenomenon, which he calls “the fear of forever,” Pope Francis makes the following plea: “we mustn’t let ourselves be overcome by the ‘culture of the provisory’! Today this culture invades us all, this culture of the temporary. This is not right!’[[3]]

 

[Abrosz]

After all, Puritanism is simply transforming something that is morally neutral and turning it into morally evil.

The definition of Puritanism:

Puritanism is the haunting fear that someone, somewhere might have FUN!

 

[TheLittleLady]

Can’t remember who said it, but, it does have truth in many situations: Every American is Protestant, even the Catholics, Jews and Atheists.

 

[TheLittleLady]

None of these Authors are Catholic, and Mr Harris has recently rejected Christianity.

 

[BW1980]

This thread raises many interesting ideas for consideration:

1. Are Catholics bound by the Ten Commandments? If so, what does it mean to honor your parents?
2. Who knows you better than your parents?
3. When infatuated do we often have blind spots? (More on this below)
4. Does the Church encourage us to marry fellow Catholics?
5. What is more important your faith or marrying who you want? If you were engaged and could look at the movie reel, to borrow from Sheen, with which God sees our life and you found that a non-Catholic spouse eventually eroded your faith or didn’t convert despite promises, would you still think it better to wed the person?
6. Some have said their kids would run from Catholics with “whackadoodle” traditional dating ideas. Would you prefer your child marry a hardened atheist who is more worldly?
7. Is modernity, the way relationships function in this day and age preferable to bygone days?
8. Is there something more important to you than your Catholic faith?
9. If you’re a parent, is your primary duty to raise kids in the Catholic faith, encourage that faith and pray for them? If so, is who they marry relevant ?

I’m just going to take a stab at number 2. I grew up in a home where we went to Mass every weekend, no matter where we were. Went to CCD, received all the Sacraments, etc. But the only hint of the faith in our life outside of Mass and getting dropped off for CCD was saying Grace at Christmas, Easter and Thanksgiving. My sister began dating a man in college. He is Romanian and Orthodox. He came to ask my parents for her hand in marriage. They charitably said no because of culture clash. She married him anyway. Two kids and thirteen years later she left him for a woman. The woman eventually broke up another marriage and their relationship ended–she’s never been with another woman since. Claims she isn’t a lesbian but rather was attracted to somebody who didn’t treat her like the lesser partner and got swept away by her. Her life is pretty messy now based on things our cousin tells me (my sister and I visit regularly and are on good terms but I don’t ask about her dating life because she’s still married in the eyes of the Church). What would’ve changed had she listened to my parents?

 

[CTBcin]

Are Catholics bound by the Ten Commandments? If so, what does it mean to honor your parents?

If you’re an adult, it means to respect your parents and their opinions as well as to take proper care of them when they get older. It does not mean that your parents can control every aspect of your dating life or that we need permission from our parents to date someone.

Does the Church encourage us to marry fellow Catholics?

It’s the ideal, but not always the reality.

What is more important your faith or marrying who you want?

False conflict.

Some have said their kids would run from Catholics with “whackadoodle” traditional dating ideas. Would you prefer your child marry a hardened atheist who is more worldly?

Some of the “traditional” dating advice given on here is just as unhealthy as marrying an atheist who is worldly and unsupportive of one’s faith.

Also, another false conflict.

Is modernity, the way relationships function in this day and age preferable to bygone days?

Another false conflict. Rejecting weird or antiquated concepts or dating does not mean automatically mean you’re giving in to modern or unhealthy aspects of dating.

Is there something more important to you than your Catholic faith?

This doesn’t have to do with anything.

If you’re a parent, is your primary duty to raise kids in the Catholic faith, encourage that faith and pray for them? If so, is who they marry relevant ?

Yes, there is some relevance here. Obviously, a Catholic should marry a person who is at least respectful and supportive of their faith. Parents can give advice in this regard, but that is all.

 

[BW1980]

"CTBcin:

If you’re an adult, it means to respect your parents and their opinions as well as to take proper care of them when they get older. It does not mean that your parents can control every aspect of your dating life or that we need permission from our parents to date someone.

I agree with the first sentence. The second sentence I agree with but it’s what you call a false conflict: who claims that your parents can control every aspect of their childrens’ dating? I certainly do not. I think Fr. Ripperger gives advice and guidelines but doesn’t claim these things are moral imperatives laid down by the Church.
"CTBcin:

It’s the ideal, but not always the reality.

Ideal means the best outcome, the optimal thing that can occur given any number of possibilities. So as parents we accept reality but should we not encourage and pray for the ideal until something other than the ideal reality occurs? Your reply is one that smacks of indifferentism, a kind of “oh well” attitude that relieves one of striving toward perfection.
"CTBcin:

False conflict.

No, it is not. I know plenty of people who married non-Catholics, including atheist/agnostics. These were Mass going people who were fairly faithful. Many of them told me–without being asked–that their then boyfriend/girlfriend or fiance was supportive of their faith. A few years into the marriage I noticed that they become irregular Mass attendees. I have asked some why they dropped off and inevitably it’s because of a day at the lake and a spouse who tells them “God (if there is one) won’t mind. It’s a day with your family” or “Don’t get weird about Catholicism. I hope you’re not one of those kooks”. Next thing you know you see them at C&E only. Had these people married a faithful or even a lukewarm Catholic from a faithful family, this stuff wouldn’t happen.

And it’s not without historical precedent: recall the OT when sons and daughters of Abel started intermarrying the sons and daughters of Cain and eventually became wicked and worldly.
"CTBcin:

Some of the “traditional” dating advice given on here is just as unhealthy as marrying an atheist who is worldly and unsupportive of one’s faith.

Also, another false conflict.

Would you describe objectively how it’s unhealthy and also how it’s a false conflict? We’ve already established the ideal, above, so…
"CTBcin:

Another false conflict. Rejecting weird or antiquated concepts or dating does not mean automatically mean you’re giving in to modern or unhealthy aspects of dating.

Well the entire Bible is antiquated. Antiquated doesn’t mean anachronistic. As for weird, something one widely practiced is only weird because modernity has rejected it. In some aspects that can be good, in several others it’s clearly not. Given divorce rates, hook-up culture, the astonishingly low marriage rates among millenials and other factors, what aspects of modern dating are healthy?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Can’t remember who said it, but, it does have truth in many situations: Every American is Protestant, even the Catholics, Jews and Atheists.

How true, how true!

Kind of like the way every New Yorker (city, not state) is kinda-sorta “Jewish” by assimilation, or at least that’s the way it’s traditionally been, I haven’t been to NYC in over 25 years, maybe I’m dating myself.

Some things just get absorbed by living around them for so long.

 

[Sarcelle]

Some have said their kids would run from Catholics with “whackadoodle” traditional dating ideas. Would you prefer your child marry a hardened atheist who is more worldly?

How about none of the above?

How about someone who is on the same page as you regarding morals and values and shares your faith?

Those aren’t the only two options.

 

[BW1980]

"CTBcin:

This doesn’t have to do with anything.

Hopefully some of my comments, above, prove that it is has everything to do with anything. Is there something more important to you than your Catholic faith? Should parents prefer their children be atheist/protestant doctors as opposed to say a faithful Catholic janitor or ditch digger?
"CTBcin:

Yes, there is some relevance here. Obviously, a Catholic should marry a person who is at least respectful and supportive of their faith. Parents can give advice in this regard, but that is all.

Parents can also form their kids throughout childhood and present it as the ideal without adding that it’s not always the reality, which lowers expectations and sets the stage for children not to strive for the ideal. In adulthood, we’ve already agreed that parents do not and cannot control their children’s lives.

Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I hold the Catholic faith as the most important thing on earth. I want to see my children internalize, grow in and keep that faith throughout their lives. I know of only one marriage where the spouse faithfully converted and the people strive to live a Catholic life. I know of one other where the spouse does in no way stand in the way of her husband taking the children to Mass every weekend. I know of many in which the Catholic spouse is now a professed Catholic who does nothing to live out the Sacramental life of the Faith because the “supportive” boyfriend/girlfriend/fiance has turned into somebody who sees the faith as an irrelevant hindrance.

 

[BW1980]

How about none of the above?

How about someone who is on the same page as you regarding morals and values and shares your faith?

Those aren’t the only two options.

No, those aren’t the only two options but I don’t exactly see how a person with traditional dating ideas is automatically somebody from whom a person should run: that doesn’t stand to reason. With the exceptions of sedevacantists, any professed Catholic whether they attend NO, FSSP, ICK, SSPX will share the same faith and morals. Traditional dating ideas are neither opposed to faith nor morals of Catholics.

 

[TC3033]

Edit - Fr. Ripperger is always a win.

Uh, I guess that’s one way of looking at it.

I think we have two different definitions of win.

 

[Lea101]

Are Catholics bound by the Ten Commandments? If so, what does it mean to honor your parents?

As an adult, it’s to take care of them and treat them with dignity, but it doesn’t mean that I’m under their authority.

Who knows you better than your parents?

I would actually argue that for many adolescents and young adults, their parents are often the ones who know them the least.

• When infatuated do we often have blind spots? (More on this below)
• Does the Church encourage us to marry fellow Catholics?

Yes, we can be pretty dumb about this.

What is more important your faith or marrying who you want? If you were engaged and could look at the movie reel, to borrow from Sheen, with which God sees our life and you found that a non-Catholic spouse eventually eroded your faith or didn’t convert despite promises, would you still think it better to wed the person?

It’s not either or, though. If I married a hardcore traditionalist and loom at the movie reel, I would come to the same conclusions as I would to the non Catholic who eroded my faith.

That being said, I have said here before that I was hesitant to marry Catholic men and I would settle for anyone with compatible beliefs. I don’t think non Catholic immediately brings on problems but I get that it shouldn’t be ideal.

Some have said their kids would run from Catholics with “whackadoodle” traditional dating ideas. Would you prefer your child marry a hardened atheist who is more worldly?

Again, false dilemma. I wouldn’t want my kids to marry both, even if I have respect for these two people. But ultimately it’s their choice, I can only give my 2 cents.

Is modernity, the way relationships function in this day and age preferable to bygone days?

There are so many types of relationships these days, so it’s difficult to answer because I’m sure you have the worst kind in your head. But in general, I wouldn’t get a date then, and I wouldn’t get a date now

• Is there something more important to you than your Catholic faith?
• If you’re a parent, is your primary duty to raise kids in the Catholic faith, encourage that faith and pray for them? If so, is who they marry relevant ?

Yes and yes. I just don’t think I have authority over it. Whether my kids respect my (name removed by moderator)ut or not depends on my relationship with them when the time comes.

Also I have an anecdote in response to yours. My dad’s parents didn’t approve of my mom when they got married because she wasn’t Catholic. My moms parents didn’t approve as well. My mom swore she would never convert but wouldn’t mind the kids to be raised Catholic. Halfway though, she fell in love with the Church and converted. She was ‘more Catholic’ than my dad and was the one that actually gave a hoot about out faith.

While it’s important to marry someone with the same beliefs, it is not all doom and gloom

 

[TC3033]

What would’ve changed had she listened to my parents?

Let’s roll on your n=1 observation.

I’m a non-Catholic married to a Catholic. My FIL came from a very devout Catholic family, and wasn’t a fan that his oldest was going out with someone who wasn’t Catholic, let alone marrying one. We’ve been together over 20 years and have 3 great kids, that could have all been missed out on had we broken up over what was deemed a “faith issue”. IMHO, in your sister’s story…sounds like the same thing could have happened no matter the guy.

No, it is not. I know plenty of people who married non-Catholics,

Actually, yes…yes it is. How many is plenty? 1, 2…5?

A few years into the marriage I noticed that they become irregular Mass attendees. I have asked some why they dropped off and inevitably it’s because of a day at the lake and a spouse who tells them “God (if there is one) won’t mind.

I find this highly unbelievable.

Had these people married a faithful or even a lukewarm Catholic from a faithful family, this stuff wouldn’t happen.

You can’t say that for sure. I know MANY (since we can use that word) lukewarm Catholics who do the exact same thing.

I know of only one marriage where the spouse faithfully converted and the people strive to live a Catholic life.

Well…the spouse doesn’t have to convert. I have zero plan to.

I know of one other where the spouse does in no way stand in the way of her husband taking the children to Mass every weekend.

Um Hi, I’m another one. Guess what…if they go, I go too.

I know of many in which the Catholic spouse is now a professed Catholic who does nothing to live out the Sacramental life of the Faith because the “supportive” boyfriend/girlfriend/fiance has turned into somebody who sees the faith as an irrelevant hindrance.

Again, I highly doubt this claim. I have never seen it. The only time I’ve seen anything close to this was with the last priest. He was not a fan of non-Catholic individuals and wasn’t afraid to say it. Pushed a lot of people away.

What is more important your faith or marrying who you want? If you were engaged and could look at the movie reel, to borrow from Sheen, with which God sees our life and you found that a non-Catholic spouse eventually eroded your faith or didn’t convert despite promises, would you still think it better to wed the person?

Well…TBH, the non-Catholic spouse shouldn’t be making promises about converting just to get married. My wife knew I probably wasn’t going to before we got married, and knows it’s pretty much a sure thing now that I won’t.

Going into a “mixed” marriage, promises don’t lay down a foundation for the marriage, but rather it takes a mutual respect between the two for each other’s faith background.

 

[babochka]

What would’ve changed had she listened to my parents?

There is no way to know. She might have spent several bitter and angry years blaming your parents.

My parents were both Catholic. Both sets of parents were adamantly opposed to the marriage because of cultural differences. They got married anyway and spent 50 years happily married.

 

[DarkLight]

Parents can also form their kids throughout childhood and present it as the ideal without adding that it’s not always the reality, which lowers expectations and sets the stage for children not to strive for the ideal. In adulthood, we’ve already agreed that parents do not and cannot control their children’s lives.

I think this depends on what the “ideal” you’re presenting is. I know one thing I pointed out upthread is many of these courtship ideals also eliminate women like me - converts with families who are unsupportive of our faith. Sometimes people do form ideals that aren’t likely to match with any real partner out there, or that rule people out without a good reason.

 

[CTBcin]

Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I hold the Catholic faith as the most important thing on earth.

That’s a pretty bold accusation there, buddy.

Your reply is one that smacks of indifferentism, a kind of “oh well” attitude that relieves one of striving toward perfection.

I’m not indifferent, but I do recognize the complex realities of dating in the real world.

Well the entire Bible is antiquated. Antiquated doesn’t mean anachronistic. As for weird, something one widely practiced is only weird because modernity has rejected it. In some aspects that can be good, in several others it’s clearly not. Given divorce rates, hook-up culture, the astonishingly low marriage rates among millenials and other factors, what aspects of modern dating are healthy?

Some of the advice given here is indeed both antiquated and anachronistic. For example, someone earlier in this thread asking permission from their priest to date someone, which I find really weird. Or Fr. Ripperger’s insistence on the role of the woman’s father in the relationship. But that doesn’t mean I’m advocating for most modern dating practices either.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It seems to me that it is the case with many American traditionalists to have strong influences of Puritanism. After all, Puritanism is simply transforming something that is morally neutral and turning it into morally evil

Meaning no offense, but I do not agree with this. Puritanism is more a social movement than a personally moral one. Neo-Jansenist, maybe.

Every American is Protestant, even the Catholics, Jews and Atheists.

I can’t agree with this either. In much of America, everyone is Catholic, or nearly so. In other parts, everyone really is a puritan and therefore a protestant.

 

[DarkLight]

TheLittleLady:

Every American is Protestant, even the Catholics, Jews and Atheists.

I can’t agree with this either. In much of America, everyone is Catholic, or nearly so. In other parts, everyone really is a puritan and therefore a protestant.

To be clear here, are we talking about America as in the United States of America, or America as in the Americas (which consist of multiple countries)?