Fatima and "Traditional" Catholicism

[Peebo]

I haven’t read a great deal on Fatima but what I have I don’t think the children made up a story…or lied…why would Lucia make up a story or lie…then spend the rest of her life as a nun…as for the miracle of the sun…didn’t the BVM say she would give the people a sign…so what if it was a natural phenomena…if it happened when the children said it would then that in itself seems pretty miraculous…we could probably take many miracles from the Bible and make them a natural occurrence… the parting of the Red Sea…can be explained by the wind pushing back the waters…funny how it happened just when the Israelites were trapped by the advancing Egyptian army…so God can still work miracles through natural events…I certainly don’t dwell on Fatima…but I don’t discount it neither.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

why would Lucia make up a story or lie

Especially considering that her own mother physically abused her on a regular basis for some months because Mom thought Lucia was lying and beat her to try to get her to admit it. A kid who was lying would have admitted it under that kind of pressure.

Plus all three kids were thrown in jail and first offered all kinds of bribes to tell the secrets and then threatened with death by boiling in oil. For the big finish they were taken out of the room one by one, leaving the kids or kid still in the room to think that their companion had just been thrown in the boiling oil, yet they still wouldn’t tell. This isn’t ordinary child behavior.

 

[StudentMI]

Geez. All that really happened?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yup. And more than that. Lucia was attacked by locals at one point and she thought she was going to be killed. Those kids went through a lot.

 

[yankeesouth]

Our Lady of Fatima said the final battle will be the attack on marriage and the family. Sure looks like we are there.

Some say the acceptance of Fatima is tied up with politics. Of course, not accepting Fatima can also be construed as a political statement.

 

[Buks]

If a church group rubs you the wrong way, or has in fact become too strict on optional matters of the faith, just move on.
With this particular devotion, ignore your local devotees if they are unpleasant, and at least appreciate the prayers (in this case, the rosary) that it has prompted from many people across many years in many places.

 

[LisaB]

This is the first I’ve ever heard that there are Catholics who reject Fatima! I really don’t understand why. All the Popes have accepted it and the children are now canonised. The Holy Spirit would surely have not let canonisation happen if Fatima was suspect?

Same here! I had no idea there were Catholics, trad or not, who didn’t believe in Fatima! I understand not having a particular devotion to it, or being unfamiliar with it, but to not believe it at all? News to me. We even had sermons on it. I always took it as a historical fact that it happened.

 

[Brendan_64]

Well, see this is not your call to make…is it? As a Catholic man, if there is an open forum asking for (name removed by moderator)ut on the supposed “3rd secret of Fatima”, it’s my right to state an opinion on the topic (i.e. that said “secret” is potentially meaningless, and that people should focus instead on the church fathers, the gospels, and other approved apparitions which have no conspiracy attached). . . .

If by the 3rd Secret you mean the vision of the Angel with the flaming sword and the Bishop dressed in white going up the steep mountain, that in itself is, I believe, approved and mainstream, therefore it can’t really be regarded as a “supposed” secret, any more than the first two secrets. As to interpretation of certain parts of the vision, or a view that not all of the secret has been revealed, I think that is where a certain amount of controversy and disagreement may arise.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

As to interpretation of certain parts of the vision, or a view that not all of the secret has been revealed, I think that is where a certain amount of controversy and disagreement may arise.

Agree. I am not a fan of the whole conspiracy theory surrounding Fatima, or the Fatima Center/ Fr. Gruner interpretations of it. I can see where a group that focused on those aspects would turn people off.

 

[Peebo]

St. John Paul II and Our Lady of Fatima

The saintly pope credited his survival of an assassination attempt to Mary -- on the very day 64 years after the first apparition of our Lady in Fatima. He said it was a

catholicphilly.com

And Saint John Paul ll had no trouble claiming the failed assassination attempt on his life was because of the intervention of Our Lady of Fatima

 

[commenter]

Agree. I am not a fan of the whole conspiracy theory surrounding Fatima, or the Fatima Center/ Fr. Gruner interpretations of it. I can see where a group that focused on those aspects would turn people off.

Fatima has been hurt not so much by people who don’t “believe” in this private devotion, but by fanatics.

The Secular culture urges, tempts us to oppose religious authorities. Fatima’s core message, personal conversion, has been subdued by many. Instead they use Fatima as a way of evaluating, and defying the bishops. If Fatima wasn’t handy, their websites would find some other rock for them to throw.

(Btw I’m still devoted, but it gets harder each year, with all the nonsense).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The “core message” of praying for sinners, consoling the hearts of Jesus and Mary, and praying for the Holy Father, and of course avoiding sin ourselves, is all I care about. It’s super simple and Mary has asked for the same thing at other approved apparitions.

I avoid “apparition fanatics” in general, as I stated above in the thread. To me, they’re about on the same level as folks who focus constantly on the end times - often the level of obsession seems spiritually unhealthy to me.

 

[commenter]

A traditional Catholic starts out accepting public revelation: Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the current Magisterium. He or she is familiar with the Catechism, has read most or all of it.

After that foundation is in place, the traditional Catholic is encouraged to consider Fatima, relying on sources in union with their Ordinary.

 

[Victoria33]

The Seers claimed to have seen hell (or a vision of hell) at one of the apparitions and this picture is supposedly after that event.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

You can see how they look very miserable. There certainly is a lot to reflect on.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

There are people who claim Fatima is made up because they cannot imagine Our Lady showing children a scary vision of Hell. (Even though she assured them that they wouldn’t be going there.)

Lucia said in her memoir that St. Jacinta would often talk about Hell after that and say how badly she felt for people in Hell and how if everyone could just see Hell then they would try much harder not to go there.

 

[Victoria33]

From what I remember, the Church describes these apparitions as “worthy of belief”, so that is key and we should keep that teaching in mind with reverence <---- That does not mean we are required to believe but should treat the teaching with utmost respect. “Worthy of belief”, that in itself seems a bit of a loaded term. I’m not sure if saying one does not believe it is even proper.

 

[commenter]

From what I remember, the Church describes these apparitions as “worthy of belief”, so that is key and we should keep that teaching in mind with reverence. “Worthy of belief”, that in itself seems a bit of a loaded term. I’m not sure if saying one does not believe it is even proper.

Well, the Church made a distinction between public and private revelation, which tends to minimized or forgotten.

Everything that is known to be true in Fatima is also, authoritatively, in Public Revelation.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There are couple of issues with Fatima that I have

One, Lucia’s story adds new things as she got older, that she never said in her testimonies while being cross examined on the apparitions. In fact, in her testimony, she said a couple of times, “that’s all I remember.” But later in life, added to that same issue. Also, some of the things we hear today, didn’t come from the children when giving their testimony on the apparitions, but from adults who cared for them or followers over the decades since.

The other is that Pope’s have accepted it, yes, but at the time, Portugal was moving toward atheism, especially among the government leaders. So, the popularity of the apparitions help the Church keep a strong foothold there. I see Medjugorje in the same political vein, except that the Church didn’t reject it, as she should have, but it was in an atheistic communist country, so getting a foothold there was an agenda. They still haven’t accepted the apparitions despite the former priest who got the children onto it in the first place, has been defrocked.

That all being said, I won’t reject Fatima as it is approved by the Church, but at the same time won’t have a devotion to it and the Church doesn’t mandate it. Fatima seems to be a message leaning toward hopelessness rather than hope.

 

[commenter]

In the 1950s Bishop Sheen would always build his argument on Public Revelation. Then to help illustrate it or make it more understandable or appealing, he would cite some things from Fatima. But some could accept and understand the actual point from Public Revelation, and not care for or need the illustration.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’ve never found it hopeless at all. I’ve found it quite wonderful actually since I was first taught about it at age 4 or 5 when I asked my mom who were those people in the picture of Mary she had on her bedroom wall.
My only sadness was that Mary wouldn’t appear to me on the tree in my yard when I was a little girl. Of course, I didn’t know then about the jailing and boiling in oil and seeing of Hell.
To me it just meant that Mother Mary loved good little children and appeared to them.