Fatima and "Traditional" Catholicism

[commenter]

Of course, I didn’t know then about the jailing and boiling in oil and seeing of Hell.

The boiling in oil is still applied to those who pull internet forums off topic. Jailing and Hell are also options.

 

[MarkRome]

I wouldn’t call yourself a “radtrad” if you don’t believe in Fatima. I think to be a radtrad one must believe that there is a great conspiracy and cover up of the 3rd secret. I think that’s printed on their membership cards.

 

[Victoria33]

Interestingly, this mention of Blessed(?) Lucia also makes me remember when she also had a vision in the Convent in Spain/Portugal.

It was a vision of the Blessed Trinity with “grace and mercy” coming down as illustrated.

https://i1.wp.com/www.returntofatim...ast-Vision-of-Fatima.jpg?resize=459,800&ssl=1

I thought it was later than 1929 but so be it, 1929.

Really, on the topic of Fatima, I have read at least 3 or 4 books on it and that is meaning on the basic event of Our Lady appearing. I don’t include children’s books or pamphlets in this category but your typical book of a few hundred pages. Nor do I include “prophecy”, 3rd secret types of books.

You almost need a scholar of the facts and yes, there are Mariologists.

For example, early on this discussions, the solar phenomenon of “Sun Dogs” was touched on but let’s remember, they say the phenomenon was witnessed as far away as 30 miles or so. That would seem to rule out “sun dogs”.

I read “Meet The Witnesses” by John Hafferty, this is Fatima Blue Army type of literature. I read it closely. Those people to attest to see this. I’d say it’s a real book for the Doubting Thomases because honestly, unless we have film or something, this happened back in 1917 right? It just seems like a remote era and in a remote area of Portugal. It takes faith.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Also, supposedly, anti-Communist types were able to use Fatima as well… and well they should, as Communism was a threat and Our Lady’s words it seems warned us about communism and Russia…

BUT that’s why the time line is important, when did the Vatican really start to hear about the message of Fatima and warning against Communism??

In the 1920s soon after the apparitions? Or well after that??

There’s a timeline I always mention. Like I said, there’s a lot here where one really needs an expert.

At times, I have similar concerns about what St. Faustina saw per the Divine Mercy.

I’ve written a lot here, the timeline. Now, I do have to concede that there will be some time that goes by as the Vatican investigates the apparitions AND messages. That is going to take some time.

The Vatican is opening up the World War II era archives per Pope Pius XII. There must be archives and a paper trail for Fatima and the examination of it.

 

[commenter]

there’s a lot here where one really needs an expert.

Consult experts who have a ministry in union with the Church. Generally this means their local bishop.

 

[Victoria33]

Consult experts who are in union with the Church. Generally this means their local bishop.

What does this mean? Consult with the Bishop of Fatima?

 

[Victoria33]

The books I have read have an imprimatur. There is one book that is often overlooked, it was written by an American World War II vet, convert to Catholicism. He also wrote a very full version of events. He worked in Hollywood, his book is a bit written in a way it is like a movie.

Lucia is only a Servant of God yet afaik. Not even Venerable yet much less Blessed. She has only been deceased for a few years.

And, for the record, Blessed(?) Francisco did not hear the messages, only, Jacinta and Lucia did per my recollection.

Louis Kazcmarek, The Wonders She Performs, he escorted the Fatima Pilgrim Statue, he was a custodian of it. From 1972 to at least, 1986 which is pretty fascinating.

I will have to reread it, I know, it talks a bit about doves landing on her feet and near her, things like that. There might be some tears in it, I forget. Nearly 200 pages.

Here’s this other book, https://www.amazon.com/Incredible-S...of+the+shepherds+fatima&qid=1582232612&sr=8-1

The Incredible Story of the Song of Three Shepherds: A Non-Catholic Meets the Miracles of Fatima Paperback – 1993

by James Hardiman (Author)

It’s rare. I don’t think it has received much attention but it’s good. The top books for Fatima must be Father Walsh’s and Father Pelletier’s.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Lucia is only a Servant of God yet afaik. Not even Venerable yet much less Blessed. She has only been deceased for a few years.

 

[commenter]

commenter:

Consult experts who are in union with the Church. Generally this means their local bishop.

What does this mean? Consult with the Bishop of Fatima?

You mentioned having an imprimatur, which is good. (Essential).
If a magazine or website has a headquarters in Detroit, then they should be in union with that, their home archbishop.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Francisco and Jacinta are both saints. St. Francisco and St. Jacinta. Their feast day is today. They were both canonized just a couple of years ago, among the youngest saints ever. Jacinta is the youngest saint who was not martyred.

I believe you are correct that he did not hear anything, only saw. Lucia heard and I think Jacinta heard most of it though I’m not sure she heard all of it.

 

[Pitcairn17]

The Seers claimed to have seen hell (or a vision of hell) at one of the apparitions and this picture is supposedly after that event.

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You can see how they look very miserable. There certainly is a lot to reflect on.

They have that same look in every picture I’ve seen of them. “Smiling for the camera” wasn’t a thing in 1917 Portugal.

 

[Pattylt]

I hope this isn’t an inappropriate question but the middle child looks pregnant. Is she or just the way she is placing her hands?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

She’s definitely not pregnant. It must be the clothes.

 

[puer.dei]

They have that same look in every picture I’ve seen of them. “Smiling for the camera” wasn’t a thing in 1917 Portugal.

This one looks like they’re squinting because the sun is in their faces.

 

[Pattylt]

Whew! I thought so. It’s a very unflattering pose but if you’ve just gotten a glimpse of hell, who would worry about how you’re standing!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I hope this isn’t an inappropriate question but the middle child looks pregnant.

She’s about 10 years old in that picture and she’s up for sainthood and has already been called informally “a saint” by both Pope JPII and Cardinal Ratzinger when she died (about 87 years after the photo was taken after spending her life in the convent)…so no, not pregnant.

 

[Pattylt]

so no, not pregnant.

Just to be clear…I really didn’t think so…but her belly does look…odd? Especially because she isn’t overweight!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

She may be wearing an apron with stuff in a front pocket. Hard to tell whether that’s an apron over a skirt or her head covering is really long and hanging down on the left.

 

[Pattylt]

By George! I think you’ve got it!

 

[Margaret_Ann]

As to interpretation of certain parts of the vision, or a view that not all of the secret has been revealed, I think that is where a certain amount of controversy and disagreement may arise.

It’s not a conspiracy theory. If one reads the Fourth Memoir of +Sister Lucia, Our Lady says:

“In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved etc.”

Since the Most Holy Mother of God never ends Her sentences with “etc”, therefore there must be more of Her words. And the text of the Third Secret Vision revealed in 2000 doesn’t follow the above sentence. In the official Vatican commentary, it relegated the above sentence (In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved etc) to a footnote.

When Our Lady appeared on July 13th, 1917, She showed the children Hell first. Then She said: “You have seen Hell, where the souls of poor sinners go.” So the children had the Third Secret Vision but as far as we know, the exact words of Our Lady are still kept in the Vatican.

Re +Fr. Gruner: De mortuis nihil nisi bonum. I had the privilege of meeting him a few times. The first TLM I ever attended was offered by him. He was not only a priest, but a gentleman and a scholar as well.

True story: The same day that Fr. Gruner died one of my non-Catholic coworkers had a heart attack. God took +Fr. Gruner and spared my coworker (he was 17 days younger than +Fr. Gruner; they were the same age). +Fr. Gruner was buried on the Feast of St. Athanasius which in 2015 fell on the First Saturday (which he constantly preached about) of May - the month of Our Lady.

Re the Fatima Center: The Servants of Jesus and Mary broke away from the Fatima Center BUT in their literature call themselves “the Fatima Center since 1994” (caveat lector!) The Servants of Jesus and Mary believe that BXVI is still pope, while The Fatima Center USA - the real Fatima Center - acknowledges Pope Francis and prays for him.

No flags, please - don’t shoot the messenger!

 

[Brendan_64]

It’s not a conspiracy theory.

I’m just acknowledging that there is a certain amount of controversy and disagreement on the interpretation of the vision or whether all of the secret has been revealed. The post on conspiracy was a reply to my post.