Fatima miracle of the sun?

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Pax said:
#1 You are still handcuffed by demanding that a miracle follow “your” understanding of physics and astronomy. If it did it might not be a miracle.
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No, not really. A miracle isn’t subject to any science or else it wouldn’t be a miracle, but to say that the sun danced and fell isn’t much of a miracle if only those in Fatima saw it.
#2 You cannot establish any basis for your statement of mass hysteria. If you think scientific criteria are somehow important, than apply the same standards to your own point on mass hysteria. It simply won’t wash.
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Well, I did say that this was my own opinion and, judging by the situation, mass hysteria makes perfect sense to me.
#3 Since this is a miracle it will have its own character which might very well include a localization of the witnessed event. There is no logical reason to assume that this miracle had to be seen world wide. Remember, it’s a miracle and not a simple atronomical phenomenon that should follow your rules.
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Again, if someone were healed dramatically or even if an earthquake happened to prove the apparition, that would fall under the criteria of a localized miracle (although miracles aren’t confined to simply “the good”), but if the sun is going to fall from the sky, it escapes your rationalization.

Peace,
CM
 
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Pax:
You might be interested to know that it was widely reported that numerous members of the press and the scientific community as well as plenty of atheists were eye witnesses. But in your view they must have simply been part of the mass hysteria.
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Sounds good, but where can I find the documentation and is it credible?

Peace,
CM
 
churchmouse

I think you forgot to include the documentation.

I was there, I saw people stare directly into the sun for up to an hour with no retinal damage. Such a thing cannot be explained by mass hysteria.

I don’t know how credible these instances are, given the fact that folks can say they saw something when they truly didn’t. Do you know of any credible scientific sources which claim that something strange happened that day?

I am trained in science. Do you doubt my credibility? 😉
 
We shouldn’t forget, as well, that no one else saw Our Lady at Lourdes but St. Bernadette, but there is no doubt she appeared. Just because one person sees something does not mean the vision will be granted to all. It’s possible that the miracle of the sun was not seen worldwide because if people had actual scientific proof of God, they would not need faith any longer, and the spiritual growth resulting from the exercise of free will would be stunted.
 
I didn’t mean to give the impression that any Church-approved apparition demands belief from the faithful. Sorry if you got that impression. As I understand it, the Church actually does not rule on whether the miracles are factual or not. Rather it investigates the matter (and it’s like a police interrogation where they try just about everything to get the witness to crack and change their story), and make sure the content of the miracle or the messages do not contradict the faith. If it all passes muster, it is ruled as “worthy of belief” and not “this actually happened”.

Scott
 
Matt16_18 said:
churchmouseI was there, I saw people stare directly into the sun for up to an hour with no retinal damage. Such a thing cannot be explained by mass hysteria.
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Okay, I thought you were quoting somebody. No offense, but you must be ancient 😉 How old were you back in 1917? You say you “saw people staring” into the sun, but didn’t say you did. Did you?
I am trained in science. Do you doubt my credibility? 😉
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Of course I do! I don’t know you. Therefore I cannot judge you as a credible source until I do. Someone can come on this board and tell me they’re the Queen of England and I have no way of verifying this. Even if you are trained in science it doesn’t therefore mean that I can trust you as a credible source. That would take time and study and I’m sure there are credible sources to the contrary.

Peace,
CM
 
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Churchmouse:
However, the miracles of Christ didn’t involve something as universally common as the sun.
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You are correct there, Churchmouse - one of our Lord’s miracles involved something extraordinary like bread and fish… 😉

Also, I believe it is private revelation and should be taken as such until the Church approves same.

As an aside, I thought the Miracle of the Sun occurred in Medjugore?
 
Remember that our Lady is desscribed in Revelation as clothed in the sun. On Sept. 11, 2001, it was said by many non-Christians that the sun seemed out of place and brighter than usual, causing a person no tto be able to look toward the White House (thus sending one plane into the Pentagon, plan B).

As for the miracle of the sun, Our Lady ruffled her cloak. Nothing else. It was a local miracle, but a miracle none the less. Read the accounts from it. Clothing was dryed and Communist reporters wrote that something unnatural happened (close enough to supernatural). Besides, you do not have to beleive in any of it at all. I just like the story and chose to believe.
 
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Penni:
You are correct there, Churchmouse - one of our Lord’s miracles involved something extraordinary like bread and fish… 😉

Also, I believe it is private revelation and should be taken as such until the Church approves same.

As an aside, I thought the Miracle of the Sun occurred in Medjugore?
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I’m glad someone mentioned Medjugore (or however it is spelled) because that brings us back to the original topic. I have heard many fans of this apparition say they don’t care what the bishop thinks, they saw miracles! Well, ok, but I would point out that they lack the authority to determine the source of the great sign. (I even heard one fanboy exclaim that Mary would self-validate her apparition. :eek: ) This is why we have Church approval–to make sure the messages an apparition conveys doesn’t contradict existing teaching to avoid the scenario in Revelations pointed out. (By the way, this was not to be a critique on the Mej apparition one way or the other.)

Scott
 
For those seeking documentation, check out a book called “Fatima: The Great Sign” by Francis Johnston. I’ll quickly paraphrase: ~70,000 gather for the great sign to happen. It had been raining all day so everyone’'s clothes were wet and the ground had gotten muddy with puddles and such. The clouds part, the sun spun, and when it was done not only do we have ~70,000 who saw the sun spin but their clothes were dry and the ground was too.

Now if God can become present in a piece of bread then I have no doubt he can take ~70,000 pairs of eyes and let them see something as unusual as the sun spinning to build or restore their faith. 🙂
 
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Penni:
You are correct there, Churchmouse - one of our Lord’s miracles involved something extraordinary like bread and fish… 😉
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And if the fish and bread were distributed throughout the world, we’d have something to really look into 👍
As an aside, I thought the Miracle of the Sun occurred in Medjugore?
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I hope not! I missed the one in 1917 but if it happened again, I would hate to think I could’ve look out my window 😃

Peace,
CM
 
As for the miracle of the sun, Our Lady ruffled her cloak. Nothing else. It was a local miracle, but a miracle none the less. Read the accounts from it. Clothing was dryed and Communist reporters wrote that something unnatural happened (close enough to supernatural). Besides, you do not have to beleive in any of it at all. I just like the story and chose to believe.
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I remember that from the movie The Miracle of Our Lady At Fatima years ago 🙂 I don’t doubt that many were caught “in the moment.” I wish it were as easy as just choosing to believe in something. If that were the case, I’d be making toys in the North Pole with Santa :rotfl:

Peace,
CM
 
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rianredd1088:
you see, i think our problem is, we rely to much on science. :amen:
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I don’t think we need science to verify that we have only one sun. At least not today we don’t 😉

Peace,
CM
 
Scott Waddell:
I’m glad someone mentioned Medjugore (or however it is spelled) because that brings us back to the original topic.
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Maybe it’s my browser or something, but I believe the original poster was speaking about Fatima, not Medjugore.

Peace,
CM
 
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domalotty:
For those seeking documentation, check out a book called “Fatima: The Great Sign” by Francis Johnston. I’ll quickly paraphrase: ~70,000 gather for the great sign to happen. It had been raining all day so everyone’'s clothes were wet and the ground had gotten muddy with puddles and such. The clouds part, the sun spun, and when it was done not only do we have ~70,000 who saw the sun spin but their clothes were dry and the ground was too.

Now if God can become present in a piece of bread then I have no doubt he can take ~70,000 pairs of eyes and let them see something as unusual as the sun spinning to build or restore their faith. 🙂
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Of course, considering I am a Protestant, I don’t see either. Sorry, but being honest :getholy:

Peace,
CM
 
I’ve heard one hypothesis that provides the natural science basis of the “miracle” at Fatima.

The volcanos in Costa Rica were active in 1917, and, if it can be believed, the ash was airborne to Portugal and perhaps in other areas where the phenomenon was observed.

The ‘dancing’ of the sun was a result of the varying density of the clouds of volcanic ash as it passed over the site. The varying intensity of the sunlight filtering through gave it the appearance of motion that was described.

As Mr. Ripley might say, Believe it or not.
 
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BayCityRickL:
The volcanos in Costa Rica were active in 1917, and, if it can be believed, the ash was airborne to Portugal and perhaps in other areas where the phenomenon was observed.

The ‘dancing’ of the sun was a result of the varying density of the clouds of volcanic ash as it passed over the site. The varying intensity of the sunlight filtering through gave it the appearance of motion that was described.
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And considering that this was the Caribbean, the massive turbo winds created by the millions of hand fans generated by the natives of Puerto Rico, Cuba, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, etc. carried the soot and ashes towards Europe which, eventually, settled over Portugal, in particular Fatima. Science! Now that’s what I’m talking about! 👍

Peace,
CM
 
…and it happened at the time that Mary said they’d see a sign, now that IS a miracle. Thank you BayCityRick! Where did you hear about that?
 
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