Fatima miracle of the sun?

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Churchmouse wrote:
Which brings us back to square one. This miracle would have been seen on a global level if the sun was truly behaving as erratically as claimed. Mass hysteria is a logical assumption to make.
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It is a fact that it was a wet and muddy day when the Miracle of the Sun happened. Immediatly after the miracle, everybody’s clothes and the ground was dry. If we take your theory to heart, it is an even bigger miracle, because “mass hesteria” dried everyone and everything off.

God bless…

Joao
 
churchmouse
  • Okay, I thought you were quoting somebody. No offense, but you must be ancient How old were you back in 1917? You say you “saw people staring” into the sun, but didn’t say you did.*
I have seen people witness the miracle of the sun while I was standing right next to them. I mentioned two places where this has happened, Venezuela and Mexico. The phenomena of the miracle of the sun is not explainable by any natural cause.

Under normal circumstances, if you stare directly at the sun for more than a few seconds, you will permanently damage the retina of the eye. But I stood next to one man and watched him stare directly into the sun for about an hour, and he wasn’t bothered at all while he was doing this. It was the sun up there in the sky for me, and something entirely else up there in the sky for him.
  • Even if you are trained in science it doesn’t therefore mean that I can trust you as a credible source. That would take time and study and I’m sure there are credible sources to the contrary.*
Why are sure that there are credible sources that can contradict my testimony. You have no basis for saying that.
 
Churchmouse,

I have but one more point to make on this issue of the miracle of Fatima. It seems to me that if the whole world witnessed the miracle, which you contend to be a requirement, then most people would simply write it off as some unexplainable cosmic event that our scientific community did not yet understand.

The fact that the miracle was localized actually makes it clear that the phenomenon was associated with the Blessed Virgin and the three children that predicted the miracle in advance. Think about this carefully, and think about it in terms of miracles. Or do you simply refuse to believe in miracles? If so, you might as well chuck the bible because it is filled with them.
 
Hey ChurchMouse,

As a Catholic, all that we are required to beleive are those things set forth into the deposit of faith through public revelation or through the teaching authority of the Church. Private revelation, adn the corresponding miracles, are not required to be saved. I can choose to accept Fatima, Lourdes, the Divine Mercy, or any of the other appiritions. I must accept the teaching of the Bible, the faith of the Apostles, and those things that are doctrine. It is simple: in the Creed, I must beleive. Personally, I chose to beleive in those Marian appearitions officially recognized by the church, but I am unsure of all others.
 
That day in Fatima had other occurrences besides the miracle of the sun.
It had been raining steadily for quite awhile prior to the apparition (I believe I read 2-3 days of rain?)
Since so many people had traveled long distances to be present they were soaking wet.
The rain continued right up until the apparition.

Then the clouds parted and the sun shone through.
Then the “globe” was seen to descend from the sky (this globe had been seen by many during previous apparitions)
The children received their visit from the Blessed Mother, and as she was concluding this visit is when the miracle of the sun occurred.
Afterwards - the previously soaking wet crowd discovered themselves to be completely dry.

This stikes me as similar to what we hear from those who bathe in the spring at Lourdes.

If it is mass hysteria - it is certainly an unusual case where soaking wet clothes dried up in a very short amount of time.
 
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nobody:
I wasn’t trying to suggest that the miracle was made by the beast, I was just describing my chain of thought, and wondering if anyone else had thought about this possibility.

I think I’m really looking for someone to assure me that it wasn’t from an evil source.
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What is the fruits of the miracles? Conversions to Christ…why would Satan want that to happen?
 
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JoaoMachado:
Churchmouse wrote: It is a fact that it was a wet and muddy day when the Miracle of the Sun happened. Immediatly after the miracle, everybody’s clothes and the ground was dry. If we take your theory to heart, it is an even bigger miracle, because “mass hesteria” dried everyone and everything off.

God bless…

Joao
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Well, it least they say that their clothes and ground were dry. I equate this to when folks claim healing during a Benny Hinn crusade. The same folks leave rolling in the wheelchairs and balancing on the same canes they came in with. I believe that God continues to do miracles even today, but he gave us brains in our heads and the ability to use them. Those present at the healings during NT times saw what anyone else would’ve seen. Those who weren’t would’ve seen the post-effect of the healing. A blind man that could see, a deaf man who could hear, a dead man brought to life, etc. The ground and clothes aside, we have one sun and no documentation regarding a solar disturbance that day in 1917.

Peace,
CM
 
Matt16_18 said:
churchmouse
  • Okay, I thought you were quoting somebody. No offense, but you must be ancient How old were you back in 1917? You say you “saw people staring” into the sun, but didn’t say you did.*
I have seen people witness the miracle of the sun while I was standing right next to them. I mentioned two places where this has happened, Venezuela and Mexico. The phenomena of the miracle of the sun is not explainable by any natural cause.
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From your prior post on this, I was still thinking along the lines of the Fatima occurrence and when you mentioned Venezuela and Mexico, I thought you were alive back in 1917 and that the same occurrence was seen in parts of these countries. I wasn’t aware that this occurrence happened recently.

I don’t think any miracle can be explained by natural cause or it wouldn’t be a miracle, but I do believe that a miracle can be substantiated through the lack of scientific explanation in light of the overwhelming witness. In Jesus’ day, there were no explanations for Lazarus’ resurrection, the blind man’s sight, etc. but still the folks there saw a dead man walking and a blind man seeing. These miracles didn’t leave room for skepticism. The fact that our one sun didn’t react on a global level does and that is the difference.
Under normal circumstances, if you stare directly at the sun for more than a few seconds, you will permanently damage the retina of the eye. But I stood next to one man and watched him stare directly into the sun for about an hour, and he wasn’t bothered at all while he was doing this. It was the sun up there in the sky for me, and something entirely else up there in the sky for him.
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I’m not quite sure if I’m understanding you correctly. Are you saying that you didn’t see anything and the man did? I don’t really see this as unusual. Biblically, are there any instances of miracles where others were present, but only a few saw?
  • Even if you are trained in science it doesn’t therefore mean that I can trust you as a credible source. That would take time and study and I’m sure there are credible sources to the contrary.*
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Why are sure that there are credible sources that can contradict my testimony. You have no basis for saying that.
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Yes, the fact that there were no unusual solar disturbances recorded during these events is credible enough for me.

Peace,
CM
 
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Churchmouse:
Hi “nobody” 🙂

I’ll tell you the problem I have with this “miracle.” It involves simple logic. The earth has but “one” sun. It’s safe to say that every planet in this solar system has but “one” common sun. Every day, every living creature on God’s good earth wakes up to see this sun. What happened in Fatima makes no sense if other parts of this world didn’t experience the same. The accounts add to my skepticism: the sun was blood red, it was falling, it casted a rainbow color upon the earth, people were screaming, fainting, etc., yet, it was solely in Fatima where this “miracle” occurred. This sounds like mass hysteria to me.

Peace,
CM
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Hmmm. How does one explain that observers 50 miles away and reputedly unaware of the gathering at the apparition site saw the same thing.

If one appeals to logic, it seems to me that a more reasonable explanation might be a “lens effect” of the atmoshphere than mass hysteria. I would be interested to know of any legitimate psychological studies on mass hysteria of disconnected persons.
 
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Pax:
Churchmouse,

I have but one more point to make on this issue of the miracle of Fatima. It seems to me that if the whole world witnessed the miracle, which you contend to be a requirement, then most people would simply write it off as some unexplainable cosmic event that our scientific community did not yet understand.
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Not necessarily. If the whole world viewed a disturbance and it is traced to the incident in Fatima, I would see that as a valid reason for pause.
The fact that the miracle was localized actually makes it clear that the phenomenon was associated with the Blessed Virgin and the three children that predicted the miracle in advance.
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As I have already mentioned, if this “miracle” were substantiated through global means, I would see this as a valid reason to believe something happened in Fatima, however, this is not the case.
Think about this carefully, and think about it in terms of miracles. Or do you simply refuse to believe in miracles? If so, you might as well chuck the bible because it is filled with them.
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No, I don’t doubt miracles at all. Fact is, I saw a boy fall off a roof in Puerto Rico. It was really disgusting. He was unconscious, had a bone sticking out of the skin in his forearm, and his leg, under the knee, was almost completely turned around. Some folks quickly called for an ambulance, but a few Pentecostals who were present laid hands on the boy and right in front of my eyes…pop! pop! pop!…he woke up and was completely healed. There was no mark where the bone had protruded and he didn’t even have a headache.

The Bible is filled with miracles like the one above, but to the contrary, if Jesus were to cause the sun to dance, believe you me, the world would have seen it dance 👍

Peace,
CM
 
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Churchmouse:
The Bible is filled with miracles like the one above, but to the contrary, if Jesus were to cause the sun to dance, believe you me, the world would have seen it dance
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By the same reasoning, if God had really caused the sun to stand still as reported in Joshua 10:12-13, there would to this day be irrefutable archeological evidence of it. For the sun to ‘stand still’ the earth would have to stop it’s rotation. That would have been noticed the world over, and broken stalagmites all over the world which would remain to this day. But they remain unbroken.
The other explanation is simply that God by His own power caused the perceived event to remain localized.

JimG
 
Hi Churchmouse,

You asked if anywhere in the Bible it describes a miracle that someone saw, while someone else didn’t. See 2 Kings 6:15-17 where Elisha prays that his servant will see that ““Those who are with us are more than those who are with them”. . . Then the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.”

Also, there is the story of the donkey who saw the Angel of the LORD waving a sword, however his rider did not. That is until the LORD opened the donkeys mouth to explain to the man why he wouldn’t move. Sorry, my lunch hour is up and I don’t have enough time to look up the scripture. Maybe someone else on this thread can.

Lastly, I loved the ending of Matt16_18’s first reply. I thank God also for the gift of faith. “Lean not on your own understanding”.

Peace.
 
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Churchmouse:
I don’t think any miracle can be explained by natural cause or it wouldn’t be a miracle
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I would say that a natural phenomenon happening at the precise time that a child predicted (from info given in vision), does constitute a miracle. God works through nature. After all, He created it! Jesus calmed the storm for the apostles.
 
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JimG:
By the same reasoning, if God had really caused the sun to stand still as reported in Joshua 10:12-13, there would to this day be irrefutable archeological evidence of it. For the sun to ‘stand still’ the earth would have to stop it’s rotation. That would have been noticed the world over, and broken stalagmites all over the world which would remain to this day. But they remain unbroken.
The other explanation is simply that God by His own power caused the perceived event to remain localized.

JimG
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Hi Jim,

Sure, but the lack of evidence could be evidence that the passage isn’t literal.

Peace,
CM
 
Elizabeth Ann:
Hi Churchmouse,

You asked if anywhere in the Bible it describes a miracle that someone saw, while someone else didn’t. See 2 Kings 6:15-17 where Elisha prays that his servant will see that ““Those who are with us are more than those who are with them”. . . Then the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.”

Also, there is the story of the donkey who saw the Angel of the LORD waving a sword, however his rider did not. That is until the LORD opened the donkeys mouth to explain to the man why he wouldn’t move. Sorry, my lunch hour is up and I don’t have enough time to look up the scripture. Maybe someone else on this thread can.

Lastly, I loved the ending of Matt16_18’s first reply. I thank God also for the gift of faith. “Lean not on your own understanding”.

Peace.
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Hi Elizabeth,

BTW, lovely name 🙂 which is why I named my daughter the same.

Well, I wasn’t speaking about miracles in general, but specifically those which involve a common global object such as the sun. The argument goes like this, we have one sun, the sun danced and fell in Fatima, but no where else. Plus, there is no scientific records of any solar disturbances on that day.

I love that verse as well, but it doesn’t mean that we cannot what God gave us to judge discrepancies such as this one. Besides, Scripture also states: “*Prove all things, hold fast to the good. Abstain from every appearance of evil *” (1Th 5:21-22).

Peace,
CM
 
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Churchmouse:
Not necessarily. If the whole world viewed a disturbance and it is traced to the incident in Fatima, I would see that as a valid reason for pause.

As I have already mentioned, if this “miracle” were substantiated through global means, I would see this as a valid reason to believe something happened in Fatima, however, this is not the case.

No, I don’t doubt miracles at all. Fact is, I saw a boy fall off a roof in Puerto Rico. It was really disgusting. He was unconscious, had a bone sticking out of the skin in his forearm, and his leg, under the knee, was almost completely turned around. Some folks quickly called for an ambulance, but a few Pentecostals who were present laid hands on the boy and right in front of my eyes…pop! pop! pop!…he woke up and was completely healed. There was no mark where the bone had protruded and he didn’t even have a headache.

The Bible is filled with miracles like the one above, but to the contrary, if Jesus were to cause the sun to dance, believe you me, the world would have seen it dance 👍

Peace,
CM
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Hi CM,

If you search online there are written aftadavits by secular bystanders stating what they saw. Isn’t it possible that the sun dancing was a mass vision witnessed by all the people at fatima? The sudden change in weather and drying up of everything instantly would qualify as a miracle in my books.

The boy that was miraculously healed above, Do you have any written documentation or proof?
 
Michael C:
Hi CM,

If you search online there are written aftadavits by secular bystanders stating what they saw. Isn’t it possible that the sun dancing was a mass vision witnessed by all the people at fatima? The sudden change in weather and drying up of everything instantly would qualify as a miracle in my books.
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Hi Michael,

I don’t question what they saw, I just question the validity of the miracle.
The boy that was miraculously healed above, Do you have any written documentation or proof?
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No. First of all, I saw it, but I don’t expect you to believe it because you weren’t there and the incident wasn’t covered by the media, let alone global news. Secondly, in comparison to Fatima, again, the boy falling off the building wasn’t a global event. Jesus healing the blind man wasn’t a global event either. Yet, the sun is about as global as you can get 😉

Peace,
CM
 
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nobody:
I would say that a natural phenomenon happening at the precise time that a child predicted (from info given in vision), does constitute a miracle. God works through nature. After all, He created it! Jesus calmed the storm for the apostles.
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Sure, if that’s what you’re willing to believe 👍

Peace,
CM
 
churchmouse
  • I wasn’t aware that this occurrence happened recently.*
I know many people who have witnessed the miracle of the sun in the last twenty years. The miracle of the sun was witnessed by some of my friends after a Marian conference that our prayer group hosted. There were Jehovah Witness staying in the hotel next to the conference center where the Marian conference was held, and some JWs saw the miracle of the sun as they were standing on the sidewalk outside of the conference center. I think it was the JW’s that first saw the miracle of the sun and pointed it out to the Catholics that happened to be standing outside the conference center.
  • These miracles didn’t leave room for skepticism. The fact that our one sun didn’t react on a global level does and that is the difference.*
The fact that the miracle of the sun is a localized phenomena shows that it is not a natural phenomena.

Are you saying that you didn’t see anything and the man did? I don’t really see this as unusual.

When I looked into the sky I saw nothing but the sun. But the man I was standing right next to was looking at the sun and describing to me things that I could not see. Later that day many othe people saw the miracle of the sun. I was there next to those people too, and I saw nothing but the normal sun in the sky. People were crying with joy that saw the miracle of the sun.

I don’t see how you can say that nothing unusual is happening when a man can stare directly into the sun for an hour and not have his retinas permanently damaged!
 
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