Fatima NOT DOGMA

[Brooklyn]

The renowned “Hector the Projector,” of course.

You don’t think “SS. Joseph & Thomas” is a silly name? Churches named after paired saints are meant to be named after saints that are traditionally paired, for example, “SS. Peter & Paul” or “SS. Cosmas & Damian”. There exists a close relationship between them, a historical or familial connection, and that is why they are paired together.

But what is the relationship between St. Joseph, foster father of Jesus, and St. Thomas (be he the Apostle, Aquinas, More, or any other Thomas)? There isn’t any. The only reason the parish in question was named “SS. Joseph & Thomas” is because it is the result of a merger of a church called “St. Joseph” and another called “St. Thomas”! But you can’t then simply call it “SS. Joseph & Thomas” as if that makes any sense. Pick one or the other, or give it a new name.

That is what I meant by silly names, which, if you read all of my words instead of about 25% of them, which appears to be the case, you would have understood.

I’m sorry, but I guess I’m just not “hip.” I have no idea who Hector the Projector is.

This is what you wrote way back at the beginning of this thread:

The fact is that the Virgin may have appeared at Fatima, Portugal to three children in the early part of the 20th century. The apparitions are not indisputable, however, and they cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt as a certain historical fact. As a Catholic, one may legitimately dismiss this event as inauthentic. And so to have churches named “Our Lady of Fatima” parish presents something of an irregularity, it seems to me.

Imagine the Catholic who does not believe in Fatima but whose parish is named “Our Lady of Fatima Church”. It may be that it could even be considered pastorally insensitive to allow churches to be named after events that Catholics aren’t obliged to believe in. Perhaps churches ought to have universally acceptable names. I don’t think that’s unreasonable

So, according to your thinking, we must be politically sensitive to those who do not and will not accept Fatima and therefore, even though it is a church approved apparition, and every pope since then has given allegiance to it, and millions of people who pray the Rosary every day say the “Fatima” prayer, which was given to the children at Fatima by our Lady (“Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy”), we must be more concerned about those Catholics who do not believe it and not put these “silly” names on the churches.

Something sounds terribly wrong here.

I’m curious. Do those of you who refuse to accept Fatima, or deem it as something out of date and not to be given any thought to, do you pray the Rosary, and when you do, do you say the Fatima prayer? Do you observe First Saturdays as our Lady of Fatima told us to do? Or do you reject that as well?

 

[Bluegoat]

I don’t see why people are so angry about this? This was prophetic about the 20th century.

People can name their parishes after whomever they like. Why does it matter? It’s not like they are named after a demon or something. Just go to a different parish.

And some people think the vision was fake BECAUSE it had prophecies that were fulfilled? That seems very odd to me. So is the Old Testament false because it contained prophecies about Jesus? People need to re-examine their faith and pray about this. Specific, fulfilled prophecies are not coincidental.

Not exactly - and I don’t know about some people - I can only speak for myself on this.

I don’t think this is the sort of thing that private revelation, when it occurs, does. So it makes the whole thing seem fishy to me. The OT is not quite the same thing - it is not, by definition, private revelation. However, I wasn’t really wanting to go into that, as I thought some people might find it offensive - I was simply trying to give another poster an idea of the kinds of reasons one might not believe any particular claim to private revelation, because he was having trouble imagining any.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Not exactly - and I don’t know about some people - I can only speak for myself on this.

I don’t think this is the sort of thing that private revelation, when it occurs, does. So it makes the whole thing seem fishy to me. The OT is not quite the same thing - it is not, by definition, private revelation. However, I wasn’t really wanting to go into that, as I thought some people might find it offensive - I was simply trying to give another poster an idea of the kinds of reasons one might not believe any particular claim to private revelation, because he was having trouble imagining any.

What seems interesting to me is the simple fact that , Why would anyone object to Fatima? What did Our Lady ask? Go to Mass and Confession and Recieve holy Communion on the First Saturday of Five consecutive months for reparation for the Sins of Mankind that Offend JESUS?

Is it me - or is going to Mass , Confessing and Receiveing holy Communion on a First Saturday somehow now a BAD THING?

How are we harmed?

Or praying for the Conversion of Sinners? For repentance?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I’m curious. Do those of you who refuse to accept Fatima, or deem it as something out of date and not to be given any thought to, do you pray the Rosary, and when you do, do you say the Fatima prayer? Do you observe First Saturdays as our Lady of Fatima told us to do? Or do you reject that as well?

Lesee…

Praying the Rosary - Only on occasion (like when my uncle died about a month a go) and when we do, yes we include the Fatima prayer

First Saturday Devotion - Nope.

awaits gasps of shock and horror

 

[Seamus_L]

Our Lady of Fatima has always been unpopular with supporters of Liberation of Theology.

 

[At_Trent]

Why does it seem that so many (so-called) traditionalist Catholics want to raise Fatima to such a level that every Catholic must believe in it?

Fatima is a private revelation and as such is not part of the deposit of faith and is not required to be believed in by any Faithful Catholic, not even the Pope must believe in it to be a Catholic.

Why must someone force their view of spirituality upon everyone else?

I’ve never had a traditionalist, no matter how hardcore, tell me or even hint at, me being expected to accept Fatima. Never on any trad forum have I seen such.

Yes, those who hold Fatima dear to their hearts pray for the Consecration of Russia, and they plead and beg H.H. to do so. Per Our Lady’s specific instructions. Is that really so much to ask ?

The request is a spiritual thirst, a faith in the apparition, and it is simply one of an enormous amount of requests our Holy Father receives.

Does the world include Russia. Yes, of course it does. Does the consecration of the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary fulfill the request ? Not per Our Lady’s request. Why on earth a pope would visit Fatima and not do this I’ll never know.

If one does not hold the devotion, fine. But the need to ridicule others for holding it and fighting relentlessly for the Consecration of Russia is diabolical persecution. It involves Our Lady, and as long as there is indeed a chance she appeared at Fatima, I cannot see how a single negative view of the devotion by a Roman Catholic can be justified. Far too many witnessed the Miracle of the Sun. And in light of the times, it does not seem so far fetched God would perform such a miracle of that proportion.

Look at what those children suffered for it.
youtube.com/watch?v=bvwcgsNA89g

 

[Bluegoat]

What seems interesting to me is the simple fact that , Why would anyone object to Fatima? What did Our Lady ask? Go to Mass and Confession and Recieve holy Communion on the First Saturday of Five consecutive months for reparation for the Sins of Mankind that Offend JESUS?

Is it me - or is going to Mass , Confessing and Receiveing holy Communion on a First Saturday somehow now a BAD THING?

How are we harmed?

Or praying for the Conversion of Sinners? For repentance?

Do you think that is all that was said? If so, than I don’t really have a problem with it. But to me it doesn’t seem like the claims for it are quite that simple.

I don’t know of course that it is not an authentic vision. I would not make that claim, I wouldn’t even go so far as to say I think it isn’t. But I think it is also important to be aware that visions and private revelations can have many dangers attached to them, even when the content seems harmless.

 

[At_Trent]

I do not know why you are posting this here in this subforum when it is more suited to spirituality, unless you just want to stir the pot. While it is not public revelation, it is approved private revelation. I think it is important that we understand that just because one does not rise to the level of formal heresy by disregarding what the Church teaches does not mean it can be tossed aside lightly. Two of the children have been declared Blessed.

As far as the spirituality of Fatima, of course one is free to pursue whatever spirituality edifies one the most and is of the greatest benefit.

… Everything that is not dogma is not simply up for grabs. We still have an obligation to listen to Holy Mother Church in what she is teaching. I don’t expect Anglicans and Lutherans to get this, but for Catholics we have an obligation to try and understand the mind of the Church when we disagree with something.

The apparations at Fatima are approved and deemed by the Church to have spiritual value. If a Catholic does not like this fact, then it is not up to them to disagree with the decision of the Church in this matter. Rather simply move on to something else. It is not required that one watch the movies, read the stories or anything else. Who cares? Yet it remains approved. It remains part of our Church’s tradition. …

I would not, however, base a crusade newspaper on any of these things.

:clapping:

Thank you. You just expressed a sensible and non knee-jerk opinion on the matter. In both posts. (I just shortened the second to highlight the meat) I have no idea why you got the reaction you did from the first post.

That is how bad it has become though. You are right. Why should anyone who does not embrace a devotion to Fatima care how passionate those who do seem ?

This lengths some here go to discredit and marginalize Fatimists is unsettling. And very telling. Only the perceived extreme passions related to the practice of Roman Catholicism are discussed here, and discredited, IF they are identified with traditionalists.

Some devotions are extreme. But I fail to see the threat to souls. I simply can’t imagine God is anything but pleased in the passion the Fatimists express. Even if they turn out to be wrong, I don’t believe He finds fault in them, seeing as though it is out of love for the Church these Catholics persist. I’m certain He would have never allowed the apparitions at Fatima if there was any chance of them harming souls or the Church. That is not His way.
…
To all who spend time discrediting this devotion : Do you have any concern at all for the sensibilities and spiritual health of the Roman Catholics who embrace Fatima ? Why are you doing this ?

Kyrie eleison

Isn’t Seven Dolors enough ?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[At_Trent]

I have no idea how or why my first post on this thread was duplicated

 

[Bluegoat]

I have no idea how or why my first post on this thread was duplicated

Who knows. Maybe the computer liked it.

To all who spend time discrediting this devotion : Do you have any concern at all for the sensibilities and spiritual health of the Roman Catholics who embrace Fatima ? Why are you doing this ?

Do you think those people are incapable of thinking critically about their beliefs? If they are on solid ground than there should be no worries. If someone’s spiritual health is in danger because I say why I am very careful about private revelation, they should probably not be on the internet discussing such questions.

As for why - do you think that people are attacking people in some kind of personal way? Have you noticed how Catholics regularly criticize and even attack the theological and spiritual positions of other Christians, as well as non-Christians? Do you see that as personal too?

I find it strange that people are generally ok with some pretty blunt discussions of theological issues that various groups hold dear, but as soon as you get to issues of spirituality, they become defensive and feel the need to walk on eggshells. In there own way they are just as important and significant; in fact they probably have more impact on people’s everyday life than whether they approve of the filioque or not, and so bad ones could have a much greater negative effect on individuals.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

That is how bad it has become though. You are right. Why should anyone who does not embrace a devotion to Fatima care how passionate those who do seem ?

Because some people have had experiences of that same ‘passion’ being forced on them. I think anyone can read the OP and find that this is the case. If you wanna pray the Rosary or do the First Saturdays then fine by us but if we hear anything along the lines of calling us Communist co-conspirators, liberal infiltrators, or even soulless servants of Satan himself simply because of the fact that we don’t adopt your form of spirituality… how are we supposed to react?

Some devotions are extreme. But I fail to see the threat to souls. I simply can’t imagine God is anything but pleased in the passion the Fatimists express. Even if they turn out to be wrong, I don’t believe He finds fault in them, seeing as though it is out of love for the Church these Catholics persist. I’m certain He would have never allowed the apparitions at Fatima if there was any chance of them harming souls or the Church. That is not His way.

I think you put waaay too much faith in the “Fatimists”. Not only can religious devotion be taken to extreme, it can be harmful to the salvation of others. Can you imagine how easy it would be for a Protestant to misinterpret such extremity as a form of worshiping Mary instead of God?

To all who spend time discrediting this devotion : Do you have any concern at all for the sensibilities and spiritual health of the Roman Catholics who embrace Fatima ? Why are you doing this ?

That depends on how you define as “discrediting the devotion”. I see some of the people here are simply putting Marian apparitions in their place as that of private revelations and not an outright necessity in the Catholic faith.

Sadly, some people even consider this an attack. Good grief…

 

[pnewton]

And all “approved” means is that the Church states that they are worthy of belief. Not that they must be believed.

Just like we do not all have to agree here. There is a large area that the Church allows opinion. I know that the Book of Mormon is not considered worthy of belief, nor is the apparition of Mary at Garabaldi. I guess I find it hard to believe that the Church would find it worthy of belief if it was all a pack of lies. But to each their own.

I just do not see the push that many believers have in these private revelations that makes them insist that all must believe in them and that, in the words of one user here, they are binding upon us.

I haven’t seen that push either, but I might have missed it.

 

[pnewton]

That’s just it, this “command” is not binding.

Many commands of God are not binding. Even Mary had the option of saying “no”. The priesthood is also a calling one can freely refuse. It is this choice that makes saying “yes” so much more a gift to God. I can see why John Paul II chose to follow what Mary said, and even expanded on it. At least it is my opnion that he did so. I know some here disagree.

 

[pnewton]

Some say the same things about Vatican Council II in that there is not a single ANATHEMA in any of the Documents.

There is a reason for that, but I will not go into it as it is a whole other topic.

 

[At_Trent]

No one needs to believe in any of the “approved” revelation for salvation as all they do is reafirm public revelation. No one “needs” more than that.

Who are you to state what a Roman Catholic needs or does not need ? What drives you to pronounce acknowledging the Church approves of something is as far as one needs to take it ?

Are you a former Roman Catholic ? Honest question. I mean no ill intent but your words are offensive to at least one Roman Catholic here and perhaps more. Thus I must point out what I believe to be a very arrogant statement.

Do you believe some Fatimists are flirting with an extreme obsession ? If the answer is yes, then we agree on something. But in this case, can you not see a single saving grace or any benefit at all in Devotion to Fatima ? What of the person who hold dear the devotion and does not speak of it to anyone ? One who only prays the prayers and never get’s on the internet and speaks of it ? Would you tell that person he/she does not need to believe in it ?

Fatima is not born of heresy, schism, error, or dissidence.

 

[pnewton]

Who are you to state what a Roman Catholic needs or does not need ?

I think this is a misunderstanding, a confusion of terms. Objectively, no one needs any private revelation to be saved. The are not Sacraments of God’s Grace. * Subjectively*, however, there are millions that will be in the kingdom because the appearance of Mary was the very channel that increased their faith. Most notable is the conversion following the appearance of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

 

[At_Trent]

That’s just it, this “command” is not binding.

Also Pope John Paul II said he did it and Sr Lucia said that Heaven has accepted it.

So those who say it must be done are wrong on two accounts.

It can not be a must as it is a private revelation and for them to be right means that the seer, Sr Lucia, and Pope John Paul II are liars.

In light of he fact that clergy (in full communion) with HMC have disputed the fact that the 3rd secret has not been fully revealed, with some semblance of credibility, it would seem doubt on that matter is something God would not damn one for holding.

In light of the fact that JPII is the only pope in history to have been documented as showing respect for the Holy Book of a non Christian religion, I don’t believe God would damn one who holds suspect some of JPII’s views.

Do I believe the Koran incident shows him to be a heretic ? No. Nor does the shocking occurrence at Assisi. But it does raise legitimate concerns in that traditionally, there are things a Roman Catholic simply does not do.

Love him or be troubled, JPII did some things that are arguably shocking

If Sr Lucia had not did an about face on the matter, then your argument would hold sway. Seeing as though she was reported to have done so, and if she did, who knows for certain why, then it is not unreasonable to raise questions.

edit to add: it isn’t inconceivable that JPII withheld the full secret with good intentions…perhaps he thought it prudent to do so… I could be wrong of course

 

[Bluegoat]

Who are you to state what a Roman Catholic needs or does not need ? What drives you to pronounce acknowledging the Church approves of something is as far as one needs to take it ?

Are you a former Roman Catholic ? Honest question. I mean no ill intent but your words are offensive to at least one Roman Catholic here and perhaps more. Thus I must point out what I believe to be a very arrogant statement.

Do you believe some Fatimists are flirting with an extreme obsession ? If the answer is yes, then we agree on something. But in this case, can you not see a single saving grace or any benefit at all in Devotion to Fatima ? What of the person who hold dear the devotion and does not speak of it to anyone ? One who only prays the prayers and never get’s on the internet and speaks of it ? Would you tell that person he/she does not need to believe in it ?

Fatima is not born of heresy, schism, error, or dissidence.

I think ByzCath is a Byzantine Catholic - he’s part of the catholic Church.

And the Catholic Church says in its own teaching that private revelations do not add anything new to the deposit of faith - otherwise it would be gnosticism. Of course God’s grace can touch individuals, including through a private revelation, but that is not quite the same thing.

 

[At_Trent]

I don’t see why people are so angry about this? This was prophetic about the 20th century.

People can name their parishes after whomever they like. Why does it matter? It’s not like they are named after a demon or something. Just go to a different parish.

And some people think the vision was fake BECAUSE it had prophecies that were fulfilled? That seems very odd to me. So is the Old Testament false because it contained prophecies about Jesus? People need to re-examine their faith and pray about this. Specific, fulfilled prophecies are not coincidental.

Excellent point

 

[Timothy17]

Excellent point

I have to agree here too. I was weary of Fatima talk when considering conversion, because that’s like the deep end of the pool of Faith ; however, the prophetic nature of Fatima gives it weight, and lends authority to more ancient prophesying in the Scriptures. The drama behind and around the scenes is also noteworthy, as that drama with secular powers and authorities during the events were like microcosms of the 20th century as a whole, and Faith v faithlessness in general. My private opinions of course, but that helped endear me the spiritual significance and value of Fatima

Pax,
Tim