Fatima, the work of satan?

[JaneFrances]

Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin
Jim Jones said “god wants you to drink this koolaid”

This is an absurd line of thought. Everyone in this dialogue realizes the possiblity of Satan using the tact of a wolf in sheep’s clothing. This is precisely why the Church is very cautious in recognizing any form of apparition.

To bring Jim Jones’ or Charles Manson’s insane and arguably Satantic actions into a discussion of Fatima is not helpful as they are entirely different in form and matter.

Once again, myfavoritmartin, please focus your assertion that Fatima may be the work of satan. What are exactly your concerns?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

This is an absurd line of thought. Everyone in this dialogue realizes the possiblity of Satan using the tact of a wolf in sheep’s clothing. This is precisely why the Church is very cautious in recognizing any form of apparition.

To bring Jim Jones’ or Charles Manson’s insane and arguably Satantic actions into a discussion of Fatima is not helpful as they are entirely different in form and matter.

Once again, myfavoritmartin, please focus your assertion that Fatima may be the work of satan. What are exactly your concerns?

Jane,
This needed to be brought up as, it was implied that the comment in the vision of “God wants” Justifies it as a proper vision… In comparison “God wants” is phrase that throughout history people have used to decieve… I had to make the point.

 

[Melchior]

Have mercy! Please bathe first!

God Bless,
michael

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Sorry to chime in so late.
First things first: I think this is a legitimate topic for discussion and no one should have condemned you for asking.
I also, however, think that your choice of words (ie, work of satan) provoked some emotional reactions. It would have been more diplomatic to point out that you have some reservations with the type of language used in the quote from Fatima and that you can even imagine that some would view it as potentially satanic. That’s no biggie, really.
Now, one thing I never did see from all the postings I read was specifically why you felt it was potentially Satanic. I know you felt that it had the potential to be in conflict with the various soteriologic doctrine, but that alone does not usually lead one to describe something as Satanic. For example, Catholics do not typically describe Protestant theological differences as Satanic. Yet you seem to have applied such a standard here.
One very simply test that I think we can both look at to determine the origin of the Fatima apparitions is the fruit that it brings forth. Do you have any opinion or reason to believe that Fatima has actually (ie, in act) brought about bad fruit? For example, you mentioned Jim Jones in an analogous fashion to make a point. But all of us can look at the Jonestown event and see the bad fruit that came forth and the absence of goodness. I havent heard of any bad fruit from Fatima. I have heard of much good fruit - people who have become more prayerful, Christ - centered, etc. How about you - what have you heard Simon?

Agreed I could have stated my points/questions more clearly.
The potential to be satanic isn’t of my opinion rather doing what we are directed to do by innerrant scripture; test spirits.
My point all along is this is there anything in this vision that Mentions our Saviour or affirms he was of true flesh and blood as we are told to check in 1 john?
My stance is no…

 

[LilyM]

Jane,
This needed to be brought up as, it was implied that the comment in the vision of “God wants” Justifies it as a proper vision… In comparison “God wants” is phrase that throughout history people have used to decieve… I had to make the point.

You seem to think that we believe in the apparitions of Fatima and other places simply because the apparition said ‘God wants’ … or for some equally trivial reason. The phrase ‘God wants’ was mentioned merely to show that Mary (the apparition) was not claiming to seek anything on its own behalf.

And it can be a perfectly valid phrase - Christ and the Apostles (not to mention many priests and pastors of all denominations) use it frequently

Have you read up on exactly how much investigation was done into the events at Fatima during and after the time when they happened??? How many witnesses there were there, for example, to the so-called Miracle of the Sun???(numbered in the tens of thousands, of all types and levels of religious faith or scepticism)??

On exactly how much investigation is ALWAYS done into ANY apparition that is brought to the attention of the Church? How many many supposed apparitions have either been condemned outright or not approved for lack of evidence?

On the debate going on right now about Medjugorje precisely because FOR TWENTY YEARS the supporters of the apparitions there have been trying to gain a positive result of investigations there, which has been consistently denied them?

We as Catholics don’t normally believe in any Marian or other apparition lightly at all. Neither does the Church approve any such thing lightly at all.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You seem to think that we believe in the apparitions of Fatima and other places simply because the apparition said ‘God wants’ … or for some equally trivial reason. The phrase ‘God wants’ was mentioned merely to show that Mary (the apparition) was not claiming to seek anything on its own behalf.

And it can be a perfectly valid phrase - Christ and the Apostles (not to mention many priests and pastors of all denominations) use it frequently

Have you read up on exactly how much investigation was done into the events at Fatima during and after the time when they happened??? How many witnesses there were there, for example, to the so-called Miracle of the Sun???(numbered in the tens of thousands, of all types and levels of religious faith or scepticism)??

On exactly how much investigation is ALWAYS done into ANY apparition that is brought to the attention of the Church? How many many supposed apparitions have either been condemned outright or not approved for lack of evidence?

On the debate going on right now about Medjugorje precisely because FOR TWENTY YEARS the supporters of the apparitions there have been trying to gain a positive result of investigations there, which has been consistently denied them?

We as Catholics don’t normally believe in any Marian or other apparition lightly at all. Neither does the Church approve any such thing lightly at all.

Well aware of all of this.

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane,
This needed to be brought up as, it was implied that the comment in the vision of “God wants” Justifies it as a proper vision… In comparison “God wants” is phrase that throughout history people have used to decieve… I had to make the point.

I suppose this is another point on which we disagree. I don’t think this “needed to be brought up.”

From my perspective, you asserted that there was no mention of God in the Blessed Mother’s message at Fatima.

Someone offered that her message was made on behalf of the Divine will, whereby she prefaced her message with “God wants.”

This point was made in response to your assertion that God was not mentioned at Fatima, not to claim that if anyone says “God wants. . .” it must be true.

You, then, made the absurd extension that because someone would say “God wants. . .” that we might automatically think it validated any given message. This extension ignored the whole purpose of the mentioning the point in the first place.

Such an extension need not have been part of this conversation as it is distracting and impertinent, unless, of course, it is your assertion that all Catholics would believe any apparition which would say “God wants. . .”

I doubt this was your point, so one wonders why you brought it up?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Are you sure of this? As I mentioned, the Holy of Holies was still venerated. And the Ark did not just slide off into oblivion. I understand that Jeremiah took the Ark and hid it (I may be mistaken, but this is detailed in one of the Deuterocanonical Books). Jewish Tradition said the Ark would be found when the Messiah returned.

Boy, they didn’t know how right they were!!! (but that’s another thread)

Jer 3:16

It shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss [it], nor will it be made again

 

[Eireann]

Agreed I could have stated my points/questions more clearly.
The potential to be satanic isn’t of my opinion rather doing what we are directed to do by innerrant scripture; test spirits.
My point all along is this is there anything in this vision that Mentions our Saviour or affirms he was of true flesh and blood as we are told to check in 1 john?
My stance is no…

John 1 has already been tested by the Catholic Church, no-one has denied that Christ had come in the flesh, especially not His Mother, the vessel in which the Holy Spirit over-shadowed.

Fatima July 13, 1917

“Sacrifice yourselves for sinners; and say often when you make some sacrifice, ‘My Jesus, it is for love of You, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.’”

PENANCE

In the Gospels the word penance means a conversion of one’s life, a turning away from sin, and a turning back to God.

As Our Lady insisted at Fatima: “Men must amend their lives, and ask pardon for their sins. . . . They must no longer offend Our Lord, Who is already so much offended.”

I still don’t see anyone denying Christ.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

This point was made in response to your assertion that God was not mentioned at Fatima, not to claim that if anyone says “God wants. . .” it must be true.

Not my assertion, my assertion was acknowledging Christ in flesh as scripture tells us.

 

[Eireann]

Not my assertion, my assertion was acknowledging Christ in flesh as scripture tells us.

You seem to be getting the meaning of that wrong also.

Douay Rheims

2 “Every spirit which confesseth”… Not that the confession of this point of faith alone, is, at all times, and in all cases, sufficient; but that with relation to that time, and for that part of the Christian doctrine, which was then particularly to be confessed, taught, and maintained against the heretics of those days, this was the most proper token, by which the true teachers might be distinguished form the false.

You know myfatouritemartin, the demons even cofessed who Jesus was.

Luke 4:34 Saying: Let us alone, what have we to do with thee, Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the holy one of God. 35 And Jesus rebuked him, saying: Hold thy peace, and go out of him. And when the devil had thrown him into the midst, he went out of him, and hurt him not at all.

So I’m afraid you’ve taken the wrong tac out of John 1

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You seem to be getting the meaning of that wrong also.

Douay Rheims

2 “Every spirit which confesseth”… Not that the confession of this point of faith alone, is, at all times, and in all cases, sufficient; but that with relation to that time, and for that part of the Christian doctrine, which was then particularly to be confessed, taught, and maintained against the heretics of those days, this was the most proper token, by which the true teachers might be distinguished form the false.

You know myfatouritemartin, the demons even cofessed who Jesus was.

Luke 4:34 Saying: Let us alone, what have we to do with thee, Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the holy one of God. 35 And Jesus rebuked him, saying: Hold thy peace, and go out of him. And when the devil had thrown him into the midst, he went out of him, and hurt him not at all.

So I’m afraid you’ve taken the wrong tac out of John 1

1 john 4:2-3
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I ask again does fatima in fact do this?

 

[LilyM]

1 john 4:2-3
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I ask again does fatima in fact do this?

You’ve been told again and again that Fatima does, both by its very nature as an apparition of Mary, his mother, and by her own constant verbal acknowledgements of her Son during the apparitions.

 

[estesbob]

1 john 4:2-3
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I ask again does fatima in fact do this?

Yes. Of course we could also get into a discussion as to whether it was spirit at all that appeard to the three grils. I beleive it was Mary in the Flesh,

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You’ve been told again and again that Fatima does, both by its very nature as an apparition of Mary, his mother, and by her own constant verbal acknowledgements of her Son during the apparitions.

Please share the verbal acknowledgement you speak of…

 

[JaneFrances]

Not my assertion, my assertion was acknowledging Christ in flesh as scripture tells us.

My point was in response to this assertion:

Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin

Originally Posted by estesbob
Could you explain exacltly how the verse you quoted above realates in any way shape or form to Fatima???

Bob,
Read the link to vatican’s summary of fatima, no where in this vision does Christ come up; not as our salvation, not for anything… In fact it only speaks of saving souls by devotion to Her (Mary’s) immaculate heart… That is why this verse is very pertinent.

Here you are maintaining that from your study you have made no note of a mention of God in the message of Fatima, are you not?

The responses regarding Mary’s preface that her message is of God were in response to this, I believe.

And once again, I would encourage you to consider the analogy of the mother’s instruction for her children to obey her. Implicit in her instruction is the acknowledgement of God. Likewise, any TRUE instruction from the Blessed Mother implies the acknowledgment of her Son’s flesh, as his flesh is of her very own flesh.

So, this brings one back to your original quesion of whether or not Fatima is the work of Satan. As we have already proven that devotion to the Immaculate Heart would only serve to magnify and reflect devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, what would be your concerns beyond Our Lady’s request for devotion to her Immaculate Heart? Or is that it?

 

[LilyM]

Please share the verbal acknowledgement you speak of…

You appear to have read very selectively on Fatima, AND not read my previous posts on this very topic.

Or you would know she taught the children this prayer ‘Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those who most need your mercy’. which 99% of all Catholics say when they pray the Rosary.

AND that on October 13 1917 St Joseph AND THE CHILD JESUS appeared with Mary - as she told the children they would.

Can you REALLY see a Satanic apparition teaching people to acknowledge Jesus Christ as saviour, as our path to heaven and as source of mercy??? Or daring to impersonate Christ himself?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The Fatima Prayer,

‘Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those who most need your mercy’. which 99% of all Catholics say when they pray the Rosary.

seems to be perhaps the solid evidence you need, Simon, that in Fatima Christ was acknowledged. . .not only acknowledged as Savior. . .but that we were to pray this prayer to Him as Savior. Since in order to be Our Savior He came ‘in the flesh’–how much more explicit do we have to be? Mary did not come “on her own”–she never does. She came because God sent her so that He could instruct us through her bringing us His words–just as He sent His son to instruct us through her bringing us His WORD.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

My point was in response to this assertion:

Here you are maintaining that from your study you have made no note of a mention of God in the message of Fatima, are you not?

The responses regarding Mary’s preface that her message is of God were in response to this, I believe.

And once again, I would encourage you to consider the analogy of the mother’s instruction for her children to obey her. Implicit in her instruction is the acknowledgement of God. Likewise, any TRUE instruction from the Blessed Mother implies the acknowledgment of her Son’s flesh, as his flesh is of her very own flesh.

So, this brings one back to your original quesion of whether or not Fatima is the work of Satan. As we have already proven that devotion to the Immaculate Heart would only serve to magnify and reflect devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, what would be your concerns beyond Our Lady’s request for devotion to her Immaculate Heart? Or is that it?

Muslims believe in God, I am speaking of the teachings of Christ and Christs salvific actions. Remember we are always told to hold fast the teachings of Christ. If I were teaching someone about Christ what could I tell them from the visions of fatima that tell that story? of Christ dying so we could have salvation? Tell me, what reitirates this? the only thing I see is Mary saying praying to her Immaculate heart would save souls… This clearly does not even begin to mention Jesus’ teaching which we were told to hold fast to… does it???

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Are you sure of this? As I mentioned, the Holy of Holies was still venerated. And the Ark did not just slide off into oblivion. I understand that Jeremiah took the Ark and hid it (I may be mistaken, but this is detailed in one of the Deuterocanonical Books). Jewish Tradition said the Ark would be found when the Messiah returned.

Boy, they didn’t know how right they were!!! (but that’s another thread)

Hebrew 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.