Fatima...third secret?

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John_19_59:
The people who gathered at Assisi were invited to pray to their false deities by the Pope.

They were not informed of their ignorance, they were not told of the one true religion.
Let me see…wasn’t it St Francis who said “Go and preach to all and if really necessary use words”?

Does not example count as witness and teaching?

The Pope can no longer speak so by your logic he can no longer teach and really therefore is not doing what he was entrusted to do. Is this what you are saying? Be very careful.
 
Does not example count as witness and teaching?

The “witness” and “example” that was given is that they were invited to Assisi by the Pope, they were invited to pray to their false deities by the Pope, they left Assisi with the impression from the Pope that their prayers to false deities in some way would help “world peace”.

This is a false witness and not the example Christ expects of us when he wants us make disciples of the nations. How many people at Assisi converted to Christ?

“Thou shalt not worship false Gods before me”

Fergal, is this COMMANDMENT outdated?
 
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John_19_59:
This is a false witness and not the example Christ expects of us when he wants us make disciples of the nations.
LETTER OF JOHN PAUL II
TO ALL THE HEADS OF STATE AND GOVERNMENT
OF THE WORLD AND DECALOGUE OF ASSISI FOR PEACE

Code:
  *To Their Excellencies Heads of State or Government* 

 A month ago, the Day of Prayer for Peace in the world took place in Assisi. Today my thoughts turn spontaneously to those responsible for the social and political life of the countries that were represented there by the religious authorities of many nations. 

 The inspired reflections of these men and women, representatives of different religious confessions, their sincere desire to work for peace, and their common quest for the true progress of the whole human family, found a sublime and yet concrete form in the "Decalogue" proclaimed at the end of this exceptional day. 

 I have the honour of presenting to Your Excellency the text of this common agreement, convinced that these ten propositions can inspire the political and social action of your government. 

 I observed that those who took part in the Assisi Meeting were more than ever motivated by a common conviction: humanity must choose between love and hatred. All of them, feeling that they belong to one and the same human family, were able to express their aspiration through these ten points, convinced that if hatred destroys, love, on the contrary, builds up. 

 I hope that the spirit and commitment of Assisi will lead all people of goodwill to seek truth, justice, freedom and love, so that every human person may enjoy his inalienable rights and every people, peace. For her part, the Catholic Church, who trusts and hopes in "the God of love and peace" (II Cor 13,11), will continue to work for loyal dialogue, reciprocal forgiveness and mutual harmony to clear the way for people in this third millenium. 

 With gratitude to Your Excellency, for the attention you will be kind enough to give my Message, I take the present opportunity offered to assure you of my prayerful best wishes. 

 *From the Vatican, 24 February 2002.* 


  

  **Decalogue of Assisi for Peace** 

 1. We commit ourselves to proclaiming our firm conviction that violence and terrorism are incompatible with the authentic spirit of religion, and, as we condemn every recourse to violence and war in the name of God or of religion, we commit ourselves to doing everything possible to eliminate the root causes of terrorism. 

 2. We commit ourselves to educating people to mutual respect and esteem, in order to help bring about a peaceful and fraternal coexistence between people of different ethnic groups, cultures and religions. 

 3. We commit ourselves to fostering the culture of dialogue, so that there will be an increase of understanding and mutual trust between individuals and among peoples, for these are the premise of authentic peace. 

 4. We commit ourselves to defending the right of everyone to live a decent life in accordance with their own cultural identity, and to form freely a family of his own. 

 5. We commit ourselves to frank and patient dialogue, refusing to consider our differences as an insurmountable barrier, but recognizing instead that to encounter the diversity of others can become an opportunity for greater reciprocal understanding. 

 6. We commit ourselves to forgiving one another for past and present errors and prejudices, and to supporting one another in a common effort both to overcome selfishness and arrogance, hatred and violence, and to learn from the past that peace without justice is no true peace. 

 7. We commit ourselves to taking the side of the poor and the helpless, to speaking out for those who have no voice and to working effectively to change these situations, out of the convinction that no one can be happy alone. 

 8. We commit ourselves to taking up the cry of those who refuse to be resigned to violence and evil, and we are desire to make every effort possible to offer the men and women of our time real hope for justice and peace. 

 9. We commit ourselves to encouraging all efforts to promote friendship between peoples, for we are convinced that, in the absence of solidarity and understanding between peoples, technological progress exposes the world to a growing risk of destruction and death. 

 10. We commit ourselves to urging leaders of nations to make every effort to create and consolidate, on the national and international levels, a world of solidarity and peace based on justice.
 
Yes, yes Fergal - very commendable from a humanist point of view, but you didn’t answer my question.

Is… “thou shalt not worship false Gods before me” outdated?

As for "Decalogue of Assisi for Peace"

Is this the new ten commandments?

Well actually it is - for the Masons.

How many times does it have to be said that it is NOT and never has been the mission of the Catholic Church to bring about a utopian earthly paradise. Our Mission is to convert the nations to Christ, preach his salvation and call people to repentance for the forgiveness of their sins - at the risk of persecution for our efforts.

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword.” - Who said that?

“Repent and believe the good news” - its as simple as that.

So where can I find that at Assisi?
 
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John_19_59:
Yes, yes Fergal - very commendable from a humanist point of view, but you didn’t answer my question.

Is… “thou shalt not worship false Gods before me” outdated?

As for "Decalogue of Assisi for Peace"

Is this the new ten commandments?

Well actually it is - for the Masons.

How many times does it have to be said that it is NOT and never has been the mission of the Catholic Church to bring about a utopian earthly paradise. Our Mission is to convert the nations to Christ, preach his salvation and call people to repentance for the forgiveness of their sins - at the risk of persecution for our efforts.

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword.” - Who said that?

“Repent and believe the good news” - its as simple as that.

So where can I find that at Assisi?
Right on the mark again John. The Truth does hurt. Personally I think many Catholics haven’t a clue about their faith. My generation, especially, is vastly unchurched, and has the fruits of that ignorance showing up in our children and grandchildren.

John 6…John 6…John 6…John 6

No priests, no Eucharist. No Eucharist, no Church. Anything that puts the Eucharist (including ecumenism) out of first place in our lives, is not of God.
 
*** Is… “thou shalt not worship false gods before me” outdated? ***(I removed your captial G from gods as God, and God alone, is entitled to His name!)

Of course not! What nonsense. The word of God is eternal. It is alive and active.

What is the fundamental message of Christ? Surely His simple message was first and foremost ‘love’? Love of God and Love of neighbour? All the rest flow from this do they not? How do we show love by imposition and non tolerence? We are so lucky to have the fullness of truth in the Holy Roman Cathoic Church and those in communion with her. Elements of truth exist in other denominations and we cannot and should not ignore this. Of course we all deeply desire the movement of all into the fullness of truth but not by force or a misplaced sense of superiority.

Representatives of many religious groups, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhaism,(emphasis is my own) met in January 2002 and produced the following statement:
" Gathered here in Assisi, we have reflected together on peace, a gift of God and a common good of all mankind. Although we belong to different religious traditions, we affirm that building peace requires ***loving one’s neighbor ***in obedience to the Golden Rule: Do to others what you would have them do to you. With this conviction, we will work tirelessly in the great enterprise of building peace.

Notice that Hindus and Buddhists are included in producing a statement referring to God; not to a god but to God? Remarkable progress.

Remember this story?

A man came to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? Only God is good. If you want to have eternal life, you must obey his commandments."

"Which ones?" the man asked.


**Jesus answered, “Do not murder. Be faithful in marriage. Do not steal. Do not tell lies about others. Respect your father and mother. *And love others as much as you love yourself.” ***

What do we see when we witness the gathering at Assisi? The Holy Father standing amidst all the lost and condemed engaging with them only on the hope of all converting to Holy Mother Church?
Or do we see a gathering of hearts, gathering in mutual respect, dedicated to the fundamental message of God that of Peace and Love, engaging in dialogue as how to achieve that Peace through love?

Remember that some of the other religions there held the Holy Roman Catholic Church as the ‘enemy’. Others at least saw us as a very mislead group of folk spreading false teachings.

They too have decided to put that aside their predjudces and embraced the Holy Fathers initiative of praying, living and working for Peace.

All who gathered at Assisi had to embrace a genuine respect for each other. This was very evident in all and if you think not have a look at the TV coverage.

I think we are going very much off thread. Maybe time to open a new one?
 
No Fergal, this is very much on thread.

The Third Secret of Fatima, abandoment of Catholic dogma and the Apostasy of some people in the Church are all bound up in it.

“Thou shalt not worship false gods (“Gods” - does it matter - it was hebrew originally) before me”.

Fergal - is this commandment now outdated since Vatican II?

The Muslim “God”, a god who apparantly sent an angel to Mohammed and dictated the Koran which explicitly denies Christ. This is a false god by any defintion. Certainly not my God.

Buddists - do they believe in any god in the first place?

Hindus - how many gods have they got. None of them are my God.

Jews - the first Christ deniers.

Animists, naturalists, pagans - none of them worship the God that I worship.

If they deny Christ they deny the Father who sent Him. And that is not my opinion, that is what Our Lord told us.

“World peace” is not our goal. The Catholic Church is not the United Nations. Salvation of souls is our goal.

We were sent to oppose the world, to convince it of its sin, and to offer it the cure.

You should really read Mortalium Animos and read why Catholics should not get involved with the likes of Assisi even if it appears to be for “the greater good” (whatever that is).

Christ is our life. Jesus Christ Eucharist.

Anything that denies Him is anti-Christ.
 
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Fergal:
Let me see…wasn’t it St Francis who said “Go and preach to all and if really necessary use words”?
No it wasn’t. He never said that. It’s a myth.
 
Notice that Hindus and Buddhists are included in producing a statement referring to God; not to a god but to God? Remarkable progress.

Sorry I meant to comment on this.

Have Hindus and Buddists abandoned their beliefs? Do they all (or any of them) believe in a single God? Even if they did (which they don’t), belief in a supreme being is not the same as belief in God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Muslims believe in a supreme being, but he’s not Our God (no matter what the Pope says) how can their God be the same as ours when their God explicitly denies Our God. To deny the Son is to deny the Father.

You know none of these other religions have changed a single one of their beliefs since Assisi.

The statement produced has as much spiritual worth as the rest of the goings on at Assisi - it’s actually dishonest.
 
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John_19_59:
You know none of these other religions have changed a single one of their beliefs since Assisi.
Neither has the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church John and so to put yourself in conflict with it means you are against it.
 
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tuopaolo:
No it wasn’t. He never said that. It’s a myth.
Dear friend

Who says it is a myth? After a period of time anybody can claim things are a myth, people go about claiming Jesus is a myth.

So who said it is a myth and where is their evidence?

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
The evidence is that there is no record whatsoever of St Francis of Assisi ever saying it. No one in the world disputes this.

franciscan-archive.org/patriarcha/preach.html

“Many sayings are attributed to St. Francis, but were never actually written by him. One of the more famous of these has to do with preaching without words.”
 
tuopaolo! One piece of good advice ya might take on board. If you’re gonna quote from that little page then quote properly!:mad:

Here is the quote in full from the reference you posted:
Many sayings are attributed to St. Francis, but were never actually written by him. One of the more famous of these has to do with preaching without words. This one is based on what St. Francis said and taught.

What St. Francis said about giving good example, and how this was more important that preaching with words comes from a variety of sources
, on of which is:
Code:
**The Little Flowers of St. Francis**:  Chapter 50
At the end of this chapter, in the English translation by T. Okey, which appeared in the Everyman Library edition of 1951, Philosophy and Theology, n. 485A, p. 295, St. Francis is quoted to have said:

But as for me, I desire this privilege from the Lord, that never may I have any privilege from man, except to do reverence to all, and to convert the world by obedience to the Holy Rule rather by example than by word.

Looks like you completely misread and misunderstood the little article you referenced. I for one moment cannot see where you got the idea that St Francis never said anything about preferring to preach by example rather than word.

There goes your myth! Go back to my post on this matter and see what I said. I refered to the fact that St Francis said it…not wrote it.

:mad:Pah…
 
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Fergal:
I for one moment cannot see where you got the idea that St Francis never said anything about preferring to preach by example rather than word.
Go and preach to all and if really necessary use words

which you falsely claimed that he said is not the same as

But as for me, I desire this privilege from the Lord, that never may I have any privilege from man, except to do reverence to all, and to convert the world by obedience to the Holy Rule rather by example than by word.

It’s not even close. You can’t just make something up and claim that he said it.
 
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Fergal:
another pedantic…😦
I’m not pedantic, I don’t even know what the word means! 🙂 except that if you don’t know what it means you probably aren’t it.

But I am someone who is against making things up and claiming that someone said them.

I realize that you didn’t realize that he never said what you said he said. But now you know. 🙂
 
From websters.com

2 entries found for pedantic.
pe·dan·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-dntk)
adj.
Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.

pe·danti·cal·ly adv.
Synonyms: pedantic, academic, bookish, donnish, scholastic
These adjectives mean marked by a narrow, often tiresome focus on or display of learning and especially its trivial aspects: a pedantic writing style; an academic insistence on precision; a bookish vocabulary; donnish refinement of speech; scholastic and excessively subtle reasoning.

[Download or Buy Now]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

pedantic

adj : marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects [syn: academic, donnish]
 
Neither has the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church John and so to put yourself in conflict with it means you are against it.
**
The Church has “reformulated”/“recast” (ie. changed without using the word) its doctrines at Vatican II.

In particular the believe that the Church of God IS the Catholic Church, now “subsists” in the Catholic Church (suggested by a protestant “observer” at Vatican II). Deliberately ambiguous.
**
Howabout this from NOSTRA AETATE
**
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men;
**
Is that the “God” who “speaks to men” by dictating the Koran where the divinity of Christ is explicity denied. Where His death on the cross is explicity denied. Somehow I think not. Whoever Mohammed was listening to it wasn’t the Father of Jesus Christ.
Where before 1958 did the Catholic Church teach that we worshipped the same God?
**
But regardless of that (being charitable V2 is ambiguous at best) , in “the spirit of Vatican II” the Church practises downright error - in particular the inviting of people to come and pray to false deities and to give them the impression that these prayers (to who?) are contributing to “world peace”.

Catholic dogma that has not changed is just being ignored. "outdated eccelesiology" is a favourite Ratzinger phrase.

As for being in conflict with the Church, the Church has created a conflict.

“Mortalium Animos” and Assisi are in complete opposition to each other. I’d like to see you argue against that one.

What is an ordinary Catholic supposed to make of it?

“Diabolical disorientation”.
 
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