Fatima...third secret?

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Mijoy2:
Is this true? I felt the most orthodox Catholics were the converts. Is there data to back this up? Sad if true.

If it is in fact an accurate statistic, I wonder what it says about RCIA. My daughter is currently going to RCIA classes and through my conversation with her it is apparent she is not receiving a thorough Catholic education, sadly. Yet, she is learning and thinking more and more about her faith of which I am grateful.
I had first heard the “after one year” numbers in a conference given by Jeff Cavins at Steubenville. I heard it again shortly after that. And on one occasion I asked our Bishop wht he thought. He shook his head and said he believed the number was more than half who lapsed during the first year.,… but he had no suggestions. The RCIA programs don’t have a followup.
 
You will see conflict where you want to see conflict

But there is undeniably conflict. Open your eyes - see the Catholic Church 2005 riddled with conflict!

If I was a Catholic living in 1928 my position and “opinion” (actually the Pope’s at the time) would be applauded.

Now my position is condemned.

Please attempt to understand my perplexity.

What has changed since?

Doctrine?

Dogma?

“Repent and believe the good news” - Jesus’ first words in His public ministry.

“Repent”! - So where is the call for the world to repent today? Where was it at Assisi? Why “since the second Vatican Council” is prosyletizing not allowed by the Catholic Church?

What are the fruits of Assisi? Do you expect good fruits to come from praying to false deities?

Is “world peace” the mission of the Catholic Church bearing in mind Christ told us he came to bring a sword?

We have one mission, to proclaim Christ to the Nations, make disciples and offer his salvation to repentant sinners.

The rest is enlightened utopian masonic nonsense.

1960 onwards was crucial to the Third Secret of Fatima, it’s not rocket science to see why.

God is a jealous God and He will not have false Gods worshipped before Him.

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” - An “outdated” commandment?
 
John,

At the death of Sister Lucia, our Catholic Register had written in it that Bertone asked her why did she say that the secret had to be revealed in 1960 or at her death, whatever came first. Sister Lucia responded that she made that statement and not the Virgin Mary. And yet, in searching and reading three different books, the opposite was true. :confused: Go figure…

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
I assume you are refering to these statements issued by the Vatican.

religion-cults.com/fatima/pope.htm

"At this point, Archbishop Bertone presented two envelopes to her: the first containing the second, which held the third part of the “secret” of Fatima. Immediately, touching it with her fingers, she said: “This is my letter”, and then while reading it: “This is my writing”."

Indeed!

But did she confirm that the writing in this letter was the same text as the 4 notebook pages (not a letter) released as the “full” text of the Third Secret?

No!

You have to be very careful with Vatican statements on Fatima, you won’t find direct lies but the truth may have been economised.

In another (or the same) interview, Cardinal Bertone said that Lucia agreed totally with the Vatican Document “The Message of Fatima” which attempted an interpretation of the Third Secret. This same document implied that Lucia had imagined it all and Sr Lucia was agreeing with the position of the only “expert” named in the document - one Fr Dhanis, a long time opponent of the message.
Somehow that doesn’t ring true at all!

If you want to see a real gem in obfuscation try this from the Vatican’s “The Message of Fatima”.

“There is only one manuscript, which is here reproduced photostatically.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Yep that’s right, there was only one manuscript reproduced photostatically in the vatican document.

But is there another not produced photostatically? Not the pages from her notebook (which the letter was enclosed in when handed over) The actual letter that contained the words of Our Lady - the continuation of “In Portugal the dogma of faith will always be preserved etc”.

See what I mean.

There is a kind of double-speak going on.

Or try this one from the Bertone interview…

"As regards the passage about the Bishop dressed in white, that is, the Holy Father—as the children immediately realized during the “vision”—who is struck dead and falls to the ground, Sister Lucia was in full agreement with the Pope’s claim that “it was a mother’s hand that guided the bullet’s path and in his throes the Pope halted at the threshold of death”"

We are led here to believe that Lucia is confirming that the vision is that of the assasination attempt, but Lucia is confirming no such thing.

It is obvious what is going on here just from this.

And that’s the way any interview with Sr Lucia is spun since 1960. Her statements are always deprived of context.

As to your point about 1960…

Sister Lucia replied: “(a) It was not Our Lady. I fixed the date because I had the intuition that before 1960 it would not be understood, but that only later would it be understood. Now it can be better understood. (b)I wrote down what I saw; however it was not for me to interpret it, but for the Pope.

(a) and (b) were added by me. We have no way of telling if Sr Lucia followed (a) with (b) or if some editing has been carried out because the interview was not recorded in any manner (no context for her answers). An attempt to link what Lucia “saw” (the vision) with the envelope that should be opened in 1960 (the words).

1960 is important, Sr Lucia said “now it can be better understood”.

Oh yeah! So well understood that the Vatican can only “attempt” an interpretation and anyway she imagined it.

She is not talking about the vision being better understood, because it still isn’t. She is talking about the explanation of the vision, the words of Our Lady written in a letter on a single sheet of paper and placed in an envelope.
 
…in addition, the idea that Our Lady worked the miracle of the Sun to prove that she gave three children a secret - kept for 80 years - which was that the Pope would be hospitalised for 5 months is laughable.
 
At the death of Sister Lucia, our Catholic Register had written in it that Bertone asked her why did she say that the secret had to be revealed in 1960 or at her death, whatever came first. Sister Lucia responded that she made that statement and not the Virgin Mary. And yet, in searching and reading three different books, the opposite was true.

It is on record that Sr Lucia told Canon Barthas in 1946, in the presence of Bishop Da Silva (when he asked the seer why it would be necessary to wait until 1960) she replied “Because the Blessed Virgin wishes it so.”

So who do we believe?

I actually am very suspious of Cardinal Bertone and anything he says about Fatima and anything he says Sr Lucia said.

He’s supposed to be papabile as well. Heaven preserve us.
 
It is on record that Sr Lucia told Canon Barthas in 1946, in the presence of Bishop Da Silva (when he asked the seer why it would be necessary to wait until 1960) she replied “Because the Blessed Virgin wishes it so.”

So who do we believe?

I actually am very suspious of Cardinal Bertone and anything he says about Fatima and anything he says Sr Lucia said.

He’s supposed to be papabile as well. Heaven preserve us.
Code:
This was my whole point. In the three books that I have researched, Lucy says it is the Blessed Virgin who told her to reveal the secret in 1960.

Now, in this article, I did not read that Lucy was suffering from any form of dementia at all. A lapse of memory? I would doubt it being that this is so serious. A deliberate lie? On whose part? Will we ever know?

My gut tells me something is amiss…

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
Shoshana

Oops sorry!
I get used to everyone being against me (except MrS).
You are right.
Something is very amiss.
 
must click correct button… must click correct button.

sorry another double post
 
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John_19_59:
Shoshana

Oops sorry!
I get used to everyone being against me (except MrS).
You are right.
Something is very amiss.
Code:
I am not against you…although I am very cautious…I believe there is something prophetic about all of this…so says my gut feeling…let us pray and see what unfolds.😃 😉

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
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John_19_59:
If you want to see a real gem in obfuscation try this from the Vatican’s “The Message of Fatima”.

“There is only one manuscript, which is here reproduced photostatically.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Yep that’s right, there was only one manuscript reproduced photostatically in the vatican document.

But is there another not produced photostatically? Not the pages from her notebook (which the letter was enclosed in when handed over) The actual letter that contained the words of Our Lady - the continuation of “In Portugal the dogma of faith will always be preserved etc”.

See what I mean.
I’m sorry to be critical but this kind of thinking bothers me. The statement you are doubting is clear. There is only one manuscript and it is reproduced. If you aren’t satisfied with the English translation, perhaps you might want to look at the original language (probably Italian) and see if the sentence structure is somehow more definite.

Now, earlier on, you said this: “We have one mission, to proclaim Christ to the Nations, make disciples and offer his salvation to repentant sinners.”

That seems basically right to me (I’d add something about personal conversion and acceptance of God’s Mercy). As a result, I don’t worry about all these questions about secrets of Fatima. What difference should or can “secrets” make in our basic Christian mission? There’s nothing secret which could add to the Revelation of Jesus. A lot of energy which could be spent on evangelization is spent on arguing about secrets and parsing statements from Cardinals and Nuns.

I’ve suggested this before but for all those who are interested in the message of Fatima, read Sr. Lucia’s book “‘Calls’ From the Message of Fatima.” She get’s right to the point of Fatima and there is no talk whatsoever about secrets. There is nothing secret about the message of Fatima.
 
There’s nothing secret which could add to the Revelation of Jesus.

The same Revelation that said “in the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams”

Fatima is prophetical and totally biblical in nature.

The statement you are doubting is clear.

It is clear!

There is only one manuscript in the Vatican document that is photstatically presented.

Nothing could be clearer.

Did you know Lucia handed over a notebook AND a letter to the Bishop?
 
Dear John_19_59,

Do these two sentences have the same meaning?

“There is only one manuscript, which is here reproduced photostatically.”

“There is only one manuscript which is here reproduced photostatically.”

According to my knowledge of English and the function of commas, no, they are not the same.

I think I am sufficiently familiar with the events of Fatima and who gave what to whom. It doesn’t really matter to me what Sr. Lucia handed over to the Bishop. It would matter more if she had handed them to me. Sr. Lucia “handed them” over to the Bishop, thereby giving up possession of them entirely and subjecting them to the decision and judgment of the Church. I would like to do the same.

Since the message of Fatima is Biblical and can’t add or take away anything contained in Scripture, I think I’ll focus my attention on Scripture, as Our Lady would like us to do.

The message of Fatima is not a secret.
 
Br. Dan:
The message of Fatima is not a secret.
Code:
Then, with all due respect Brother, how do you explain the discrepency between the statement made prior to 1960 about the secret being revealed (by 1960) which is written in many books and the statement made that the 1960 thing was fabricated by Sister Lucia in the last little while? please elaborate…

We can’t have it both ways…something’s amiss…

Blessings,
Shoshana
 
I believe Russia probably was consecrated to the Immaculate Heart. John Allen of the National Catholic Reporter reported:

nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word021805.htm

There’s no question that John Paul II feels a special connection with the Fatima devotion, and with Lucia. It was Fatima where Mary referred to “the errors that Russia will spread in the world,” taken by most Catholics as a reference to Soviet Communism. In keeping with Mary’s request at Fatima that Russia be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart, the pope performed a consecration of the whole world at Fatima in 1982, on the anniversary of the assassination attempt. There followed concern that the pope did not do this in concert with the rest of the bishops, as Mary had asked. Hence on March 25, 1984, John Paul repeated the consecration in a ceremony in St. Peter’s Square, after having sent letters to all the world’s Catholic and Orthodox bishops asking them to join him. The statue of the Virgin from Fatima was brought to Rome for the occasion. Though the pope’s text did not specifically mention Russia, at least one observer, the bishop of Leiria-Fatima, Alberto Cosme do Amaral, said the pope paused at one point and quietly added “Russia” under his breath. Afterwards, Sr. Lucia apparently told the apostolic nuncio in Portugal that Mary had accepted the consecration, a fact that, in the pope’s mind, is not without significance in explaining subsequent events, including the collapse of the Berlin Wall and eventually the Soviet system.

For those who doubt the validity of the 1984 consecration, what do you make of the Pope’s quietly adding “Russia” under his breath? Wouldn’t that make the consecration acceptable? Our Lady and Our Lord didn’t say how loud the pope had to utter it after all 🙂
 
Dear Shoshana,

What I mean by “the message of Fatima is not a secret” is that the Blessed Mother’s request for penance, prayer and charity for the sake of sinners and the whole world is clear and known to everyone who wants to know. The “message” is the Gospel of her Son and a request for a continuation of His redemptive work–a request that we allow ourselves to be another humanity for the Word so that His Mystery might be renewed, as Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity said (not regarding Fatima but as a desire of her own).

Regarding the discrepancy you mention, why can’t I have it both ways? Why can’t I have it neither way? What difference does it make to me or to the fundamental message of Our Lady? That “discrepancy” is (was) the concern of Sr. Lucia and those to whom she entrusted the specific message, not me.

As a devotee of St. John of the Cross, you’ll understand my desire to truly put into practice his advice in the Ascent of Mount Carmel regarding private revelation. That is what I am trying to do in this case.
 
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tuopaolo:
For those who doubt the validity of the 1984 consecration, what do you make of the Pope’s quietly adding “Russia” under his breath? Wouldn’t that make the consecration acceptable? Our Lady and Our Lord didn’t say how loud the pope had to utter it after all 🙂
Let’s not rewrite Our Lady’s message to-
1] consecrate Russia…period
2] all bishops of the world should participate

I make nothing of the under-his-breath comment, if it ever happened. Was it a valid consecration…of course. The Pope performed it.

Was it according to instructions? Of course not… not yet.

Why? Perhaps because we know so many bishops who will not comply with the Holy Father’s requests. Perhaps because it would, in the Pope’s mind maybe, set back his plans for ecumenism. Perhaps because, when it really does occur, we will have seen the consequences of not listening to Our Lady.

Her message at Cana was listen to what my Son tells you. She did not add any exceptions or choices. Her message at Fatima should be listened to just as closely.
 
Fatima does not add anything to the public revelation of Our Lord.

But Fatima is a sharp reminder of what that revelation is and the consequences of ignoring it.

The prophecy of wide-spread apostasy is part of the public revelation of Our Lord. The prophecy of the elect being deceived is also part of that public revelation. “The woman clothed with the sun” is part of that revelation, “signs in the heavens” is part of that revelation. The similarity of Our Lady’s appearance and the Our Lord’s at the Transfiguration is striking. “Angels, Heaven, Hell, The Eucharist, Sin, Prayer, Penance, Reparation, Our Lady, Miracles, Prophecies, dogmas of faith, The Pope, Bishops…” all are part of Fatima and all are totally in accord with the Gospels.

Fatima is the wake up call to the 20th Century (and beyond).

As regards the grammatical construction of the sentence (I checked all the other language translations on the Vatican site, the comma is in the same place) it still could be understood as only one in this document but not excluding the possibility of another.

“There is only one manuscript…” one what? One in the world? One in the Vatican? One in this document? What is the qualifier for “one”? It’s not given! Except possibly in the second part of the sentence “which is here reproduced photostatically”.

But is a “manuscript” different to a “letter” anyway? Is the reproduced manuscript in the form of a letter? No! - they are pages from a notebook. Sr Lucia did pass on a notebook as well as a letter to her Bishop.

Does the Vatican play word games? - I think you know the answer to that - look at the documents of Vatican II and it’s subsequent interpretation (and interpretations of interpretations)

I think the Vatican has been playing word games with Fatima since 1989 when someone somewhere (who?) said “enough, we are drawing a line” and ordered everyone to get into line. Anyone who disagreed after 1989 was to brow-beaten into submission. Some have resisted - good luck to them.

Since 1989 Sr Lucia starts - via second hand reports and interviews - to contradict herself, something is very amiss. No one gets to the source without Vatican clearance, Sr Lucia’s comments appear without providing the original context for them.

It’s all very odd.
 
Here is a web page that suggests a cover-up of the message of Fatima.

devilsfinalbattle.com/appendix.htm

Page down to 1982.

There is a section in that says that according to the Vatican Sr Lucia wrote a letter to Pope John Paul II in May 1982 that said… “The third part of the secret**, that you are so anxious to know, **is a symbolic revelation…”

Now there is a puzzle!

According to Cardinal Bertone the Pope had already read the secret in 1981. So why would he still be “anxious to know”?

The web page suggests that the letter could not have been addressed to John Paul as he already knew the secret.

But a thought occurs to me that maybe it was addressed to him, but that the reason he still didn’t know is that the envelope that contained the secret was found to be empty or at least didn’t contain the letter from Lucia.

“One manuscript” - the notebook - the description of the vision, then becomes true according to “The Message of Fatima” document.

Whatever, it’s just another possibility - none of the official version makes any sense.

What is clear that our Lady spoke more words at Fatima that we haven’t been told yet.

“In Portugal the dogma of faith will always be preserved etc.”
 
…one other sharp reminder from Fatima that is in total keeping with Revelation but perhaps not a favourite with the modernists.

God actually chastises His children!
 
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