Fatima

[Dempsey1919]

The important thing to remember, in my opinion, is that the consecration is not necessarily to overtly bring about a conversion of Russia to Catholicism, but to return to her own roots and traditions.

I disagree.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ and the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven were given to St. Peter and his successors until the end of time. St. Peter and his successors were granted full, universal, and supreme power over the Church until the glorious return of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Russian Orthodox Church separated from the Barque of Peter. They separated from the Church that Christ founded and rejected the divinely instituted office of the Papacy. Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, and the Catholic religion is the only religion that is truly pleasing to God.

Although elements of truth and sanctification exist in the Russian Orthodox Church, they are clearly in error regarding important doctrines. The Blessed Mother is the Mother of the Catholic Church and you can be sure that she wants the entire human race to embrace the faith of the Holy, Apostolic, Roman Church.

The Consecration of Russia definitely involves a mass conversion to the Catholic faith. The Catholic faith alone is the true religion, and I know for certain that the Blessed Mother desires that all receive salvation through her son and Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[aicirt]

The reason John Paul II did not use the name “Russia” in his consecration is because of his interest in ecumenism. The Patriarch of Moscow would certainly see it as a declaration of war between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The important thing to remember, in my opinion, is that the consecration is not necessarily to overtly bring about a conversion of Russia to Catholicism, but to return to her own roots and traditions.

Some would consider the fall of Communism in Russia a miraculous event; the youth of Moscow dancing in the street holding icons and being able to worship legally again allows me to be more optimistic about Russia’s future.

No, that doesn’t make sense. The BVM appeared to three Catholic children with instructions for the Catholic Pope in Rome to consecrate Russia to her. If this would cause any conflict, it certainly had to be an issue even in 1917. It would have been easier to have done it then, when all was in a turmoil and the Russian Orthodox Church was being persecuted, than now.

Why would the Patriarch care? He believes in the BVM. If the consercration worked, his church and his people would not be persecuted. If it didn’t, his situation remained the same.

Has communism fallen in Russia? Yes, things are better but she still backs other communist nations…Cuba, Venezuela.

Has there been an increase in Catholic priests, nuns, churches?

Why hadn’t a previous Pope concsecrated Russia especially knowing the hell Russians were going through?

 

[VitaminC]

I don’t share that view of Cardinal Bertone. The way I see it, if we can’t trust Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, there’s no one in this world we can trust; his record is nothing but laudable.

Cardinal Bertone has been disgraced. He has absolutely no credibility left whatsoever after the publication of The Secret Still Hidden.

As for Sr. Lucia not having given her assurances, this except from a letter written by her is available on www.theotokos.org.uk:

"The letter of Sister Lucia to Father Fox (dated July 3, 1990) is a demonstrable fraud. Sister Lucia is most certainly not the author of that letter because Sister Lucia certainly would not have written the outright lie that is stated in that letter. The text of that letter reads in response to the question, “If the consecration made by Pope John Paul II on March 25, 1984, in union with all the bishops of the world, accomplished the conditions for the conversion of Russia according to the request of Our Lady in Tuy on June 13, of 1929”? The answer to that question reads: “Yes, it was accomplished, and since then I have said that it was made.” The underlined statement is a proven falsehood, an outright lie. This brazen lie starkly contradicts Sister Lucia’s published statements to the contrary, made after the March 1984 consecration. From 1984 to 1989, published statements of Sister Lucia consistently maintain that the Consecration of Russia requested by Our Lady of Fatima has not yet been done. Alleged statements to the contrary began to emerge only in 1989. The statement also contradicts absolutely everything that Sister Lucia has written about the Consecration of Russia in the more than fifty years that she has written on the subject. These facts sufficiently demonstrate the fraudulent nature of the document in question. " source:fatima.org

And as I’ve already posted here, she did an interview with Sol de Fatima Magazine in 1985 and definitively stated that the 1984 consecration was inadequate. And a couple years after this, a reporter questioned her about the completion of the consecration when she left the convent to vote and she told him explicitly that it had NOT been done yet.

Also known is that in 1989 her community received an order from the Vatican (undoubtedly Casaroli), who via formal order, told everyone to begin repudiating their former statements regarding the consecration and to say the 1984 one had been sufficient. Fr. Malachi Martin in interviews in the 1990’s also stated that forged letters were drafted with her signature.

Sr. Lucia wrote extensively to many people and she never to my knowlege said that she considered the third secret less than complete. I see no reason to doubt the Cardinal’s efforts or motives.

You mean like after the assassination attempt when she told Brother Michel de la Sainte Trinité in an interview to look Apocalypse Chapters 8 - 13 to understand the 3rd Secret?

Or how about her letter to the Pope about a year after the assassination attempt where Sr. Lucia wrote, "And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfillment of the final part of this prophecy [The 3rd Secret], we are going towards it little by little with great strides if we do not reject the path of sin . . .”

 

[GodIsGracious]

So if it’s so urgent to have Russia consecrated, why hasn’t it been done yet?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Church has publically stated that the message of Fatima is worthy of belief. There were no further revelations of the Faith at Fatima, however. So, yes, you are correct that no private revelation is binding upon faithful Catholics. However, also, the Miracle of the Sun was a PUBLIC event to prove that the apparitions and messages were authentic and from God. The Church approves.

The Church, as you state, only says that Fatima is worthy of belief.

You go to far, as most of those who push Fatima do, with the Miracle of the Sun being a public event that proves the apparition and then say that the Church approves, it does not, it only states that it is worthy of Belief.

As I have stated, there are other “public” events that have occurred, such as the hundred’s of witnesses of UFOs over Phoenix, AZ, yet we do not say that because of this that the existence of UFOs is proven.

I am not against Fatima, I have not stated in this thread if I believe or not as that is not what is at issue. What is at issue is the instance that everyone believes in it which is not what the Church Teaches in regards to private revelations, which Fatima is (even with the “public” Miracle of the Sun).

 

[aicirt]

Personally, I’m not concerned if everyone believes in it or not. The Chruch has said it is worthy of belief. It has promoted Fatima. People were asked to pray for the conversion of Russia and everyone anxiously awaited for the third secret to be opened. Pope John Paul II placed the bullet from his attempted assasination in the crown of the BVM’s statue. So if the church is going to inspire the laity to do all it can to meet the BVM’s requests, the Popes should also have made sure the consercration was done correctly.

 

[Hesychios]

The Church has publically stated that the message of Fatima is worthy of belief. There were no further revelations of the Faith at Fatima, however. So, yes, you are correct that no private revelation is binding upon faithful Catholics. However, also, the Miracle of the Sun was a PUBLIC event to prove that the apparitions and messages were authentic and from God. The Church approves.

The age of revelation is closed.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Fatima is the counterpart to the apparitions of Christ to Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque in starting the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Both apparitions consist of nations being consecrated to the Sacred Heart or to the Immaculate Heart and, poor unfortunate fools that we are, we are doing the exact same thing that happened when Christ asked for the consecration of France to His Sacred Heart; stall - to our own detriment. The entire French revolution could’ve been averted if the King of France had promptly obeyed and our way of life would be completely different today. Christ told Sr. Lucy, like the King of France they will do the consecration but it will be too late. Russia will have spread her errors throughout the world causing wars and persecutions. This is where we’re at today but not only is it late but it hasn’t even been done as Our Lady asked. We have Her assurance that no matter how late the hour that once done - in the end Her Immaculate Heart will triumph.

For those who are of the mind that the Church is under no obligation to acquiesce to Our Lady of Fatima do you hold the same viewpoint towards Our Lord to Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque?

Also, let us not forget one of the main reasons for Our Lady’s appearance; to establish devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary - who’s feast day is this Saturday - today being the feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus! Viva Christo Rey!!

The Church, as you state, only says that Fatima is worthy of belief.

You go to far, as most of those who push Fatima do, with the Miracle of the Sun being a public event that proves the apparition and then say that the Church approves, it does not, it only states that it is worthy of Belief.

As I have stated, there are other “public” events that have occurred, such as the hundred’s of witnesses of UFOs over Phoenix, AZ, yet we do not say that because of this that the existence of UFOs is proven.

I am not against Fatima, I have not stated in this thread if I believe or not as that is not what is at issue. What is at issue is the instance that everyone believes in it which is not what the Church Teaches in regards to private revelations, which Fatima is (even with the “public” Miracle of the Sun).

Brother, with all due respect, you equate Fatima to UFO’s then reassure everyone that you’re not “against” Fatima with a further disclaimer that you haven’t stated anywhere on this forum whether you’re for or against. I would suggest that the 4th secret of Fatima consists of whether Brother David believes in Fatima or not - except for the small fact that it’s obvious he does not.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Brother, with all due respect, you equate Fatima to UFO’s then reassure everyone that you’re not “against” Fatima with a further disclaimer that you haven’t stated anywhere on this forum whether you’re for or against. I would suggest that the 4th secret of Fatima consists of whether Brother David believes in Fatima or not - except for the small fact that it’s obvious he does not.

I am not doing any such thing. All I am pointing out is that using the argument that there are eyewitnesses to some event does not necessarily mean that the event in question happened or happened in the way that the eyewitnesses state.

You are making a judgment on my belief in a private matter with no knowledge of what I believe.

I have stated in one thread (that I recall) what my belief in this matter is, but it does not matter what I believe as Catholics are free to believe or disbelieve.

 

[hawkeye]

So if it’s so urgent to have Russia consecrated, why hasn’t it been done yet?

Sister Lucia said the Consecration was done, and Heaven accepted, I’ll take her word for it as she sort of is involved in all of this.:sad_yes:

 

[peary]

The Church, as you state, only says that Fatima is worthy of belief.

You go to far, as most of those who push Fatima do, with the Miracle of the Sun being a public event that proves the apparition and then say that the Church approves, it does not, it only states that it is worthy of Belief.

As I have stated, there are other “public” events that have occurred, such as the hundred’s of witnesses of UFOs over Phoenix, AZ, yet we do not say that because of this that the existence of UFOs is proven.

I am not against Fatima, I have not stated in this thread if I believe or not as that is not what is at issue. What is at issue is the instance that everyone believes in it which is not what the Church Teaches in regards to private revelations, which Fatima is (even with the “public” Miracle of the Sun).

You go to(o) far, as most of those who push Fatima do, with the Miracle of the Sun being a public event that proves the apparition and then say that the Church approves, it does not, it only states that it is worthy of Belief.

The facts of the matter are, that the Miracle of the Sun occurred. It was reported by all the secular newspapers in Europe with pictures.The Church has more than just found the message of Fatima “worthy of belief.” It has solidly approved it at the highest levels (the Vatican). This is the official Vatican website that discusses the matter:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

As I have stated, there are other “public” events that have occurred, such as the hundred’s of witnesses of UFOs over Phoenix, AZ, yet we do not say that because of this that the existence of UFOs is proven.

UFOs and other such phenomena are not part of the Church. They are irrelevent.

 

[JustaServant]

I am not doing any such thing. All I am pointing out is that using the argument that there are eyewitnesses to some event does not necessarily mean that the event in question happened or happened in the way that the eyewitnesses state.

You are making a judgment on my belief in a private matter with no knowledge of what I believe.

I have stated in one thread (that I recall) what my belief in this matter is, but it does not matter what I believe as Catholics are free to believe or disbelieve.

Nevertheless connecting Fatima to UFOs is at least distasteful, at worse disrespectful to our Lady.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Nevertheless connecting Fatima to UFOs is at least distasteful, at worse disrespectful to our Lady.

I disagree but you are welcome to your opinion.

My argument was against eyewitness testimony, which is the weakest form of evidence. That is all.

I will go ahead and break my personal rule and state that I believe in Fatima and in the Miracle of the Sun but one when one tries to use the Miracle as evidence to convince someone they need to understand that there is a lot of eyewitness testimony to other things that are not true.

For those who do not know, may secular newspapers and new programs covered the hundreds of witnesses to the UFOs over Phoenix, that does not make it true.

 

[judechild]

Cardinal Bertone has been disgraced. He has absolutely no credibility left whatsoever after the publication of The Secret Still Hidden.

Wow, must be quite a book! However, I hope you can demostrate Cardinal Bertone’s “pinoccio-ness” with points from the book, considering I haven’t read it. Watch out for copyright.

"The letter of Sister Lucia to Father Fox (dated July 3, 1990) is a demonstrable fraud. Sister Lucia is most certainly not the author of that letter because Sister Lucia certainly would not have written the outright lie that is stated in that letter. The text of that letter reads in response to the question, “If the consecration made by Pope John Paul II on March 25, 1984, in union with all the bishops of the world, accomplished the conditions for the conversion of Russia according to the request of Our Lady in Tuy on June 13, of 1929”? The answer to that question reads: “Yes, it was accomplished, and since then I have said that it was made.” The underlined statement is a proven falsehood, an outright lie. This brazen lie starkly contradicts Sister Lucia’s published statements to the contrary, made after the March 1984 consecration. From 1984 to 1989, published statements of Sister Lucia consistently maintain that the Consecration of Russia requested by Our Lady of Fatima has not yet been done. Alleged statements to the contrary began to emerge only in 1989. The statement also contradicts absolutely everything that Sister Lucia has written about the Consecration of Russia in the more than fifty years that she has written on the subject. These facts sufficiently demonstrate the fraudulent nature of the document in question. " source:fatima.org [QUORE]

If you can prove (or at least give some credence) to these beliefs then by all means, please. Thus far, I’m not impressed by the evidence that www.fatima.org gives for a supposed cover-up of the third secret; please show me specifically where on the site I can find something conclusive. If the letter I quoted can be show by you or anyone else to be a forgery, again, please do so; I’m sure you’re a perfectly trustworthy person, but I’m not going to believe it simply because you say so. It would be especially helpful to get some more on this *Sol de Fatima *article.

Or how about her letter to the Pope about a year after the assassination attempt where Sr. Lucia wrote, "And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfillment of the final part of this prophecy [The 3rd Secret], we are going towards it little by little with great strides if we do not reject the path of sin . . .”

Interesting, can you tell me where this is from?

I Believe, I’m having trouble locating the full text of John Paul II’s speech; I’ll keep trying though.

 

[VitaminC]

Wow, must be quite a book! However, I hope you can demostrate Cardinal Bertone’s “pinoccio-ness” with points from the book, considering I haven’t read it.

Read it, then.

The content of the book is available online for free.

secretstillhidden.com/book.html

(chapter links are on bottom right side of this page)

 

[Hesychios]

** …the Miracle of the Sun occurred. It was reported by all the secular newspapers in Europe with pictures.**

Can anyone provide links to this?

Are reproductions of these articles and pictures available on websites?

Thanks

 

[Eucharisted]

Can anyone provide links to this?

Are reproductions of these articles and pictures available on websites?

Thanks

pbase.com/shaunwin/image/90818686
christusrex.org/www1/apparitions/http://pr00011.htm
tarxienparish.org/FatimaSun_13Oct1917.jpg

I wish I had the photographs my grandma showed me. She had actual pictures her friend gave her when she went to Fatima and witnessed the miracle. There was nothing miraculous in the photographs, but I’ve learned that heavenly signs cannot be photographed for the same reason apparitions cannot be photographed.

 

[Eucharisted]

The title pretty much says it all.

After reading The Last Secret of Fatima by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, I’ve come to believe that the events in Fatima are more than just “worthy of belief”. I’m interested, though, in what others think, so that is the subject of this thread. What do you believe happened, or did not happen, in Fatima, Portugal in the year 1917?

Btw, I’m sick of reading page after page of snappish, agitated posts. If you post on this thread, please do so with respect and dignity so that we can have a true theological/historical discussion here. This is not to be a playground for bickering. I won’t hesitate to report any blatant disrespect; just be aware of that.

First, all private revelations are private revelations. They are not mandatory nor necessary. You don’t have to believe in them even if the Church declares them to be authentic.

Second, apparitions and like signs cannot be photographed, because they aren’t natural. So if someone ever tells you they have pictures or videos of spirits, apparitions, heavenly signs, or visions, you can bet they are either decievers or deceived.

Third, I believe that, at Fatima, Mary appeared to three shepherds, told them to pray and do penance, and gave them a secret in three parts (sometimes people mistake it for three secrets). The secret concerned a vision of Hell, a request for the consecration of Russia to Mary’s Immaculate Heart and a warning of chastisement if her request wasn’t heeded in time, and a vision of the Pope climbing up a mountain to the Cross. As a sign of the apparition’s authenticity, which Mary predicted, God performed a miracle: the sun danced, hearts converted, and some were healed.

 

[judechild]

I Believe, I’ve found the full text, it’s located on vatican.va. VitaminC, please pay special attention to the highlit paragraph as it portains to a previous post.

‘We have recourse to your protection, holy Mother of God!’ Despise not our petitions in our necessities”.

The Pope then continued more forcefully and with more specific references, as though commenting on the Message of Fatima in its sorrowful fulfilment:

“Behold, as we stand before you, Mother of Christ, before your Immaculate Heart, we desire, together with the whole Church, to unite ourselves with the consecration which, for love of us, your Son made of himself to the Father: ‘For their sake’, he said, ‘I consecrate myself that they also may be consecrated in the truth’ (Jn 17:19). We wish to unite ourselves with our Redeemer in this his consecration for the world and for the human race, which, in his divine Heart, has the power to obtain pardon and to secure reparation.

The power of this consecrationlasts for all time and embraces all individuals, peoples and nations. It overcomes every evil that the spirit of darkness is able to awaken, and has in fact awakened in our times, in the heart of man and in his history.

How deeply we feel the need for the consecration of humanity and the world—our modern world—in union with Christ himself! For the redeeming work of Christ must be shared in by the world through the Church.

The present Year of the Redemption shows this: the special Jubilee of the whole Church.

Above all creatures, may you be blessed, you, the Handmaid of the Lord, who in the fullest way obeyed the divine call!

Hail to you, who are wholly united to the redeeming consecration of your Son!

Mother of the Church! Enlighten the People of God along the paths of faith, hope, and love! Enlighten especially the peoples whose consecration and entrustment by us you are awaiting. Help us to live in the truth of the consecration of Christ for the entire human family of the modern world.
In entrusting to you, O Mother, the world, all individuals and peoples, we also entrust to you this very consecration of the world, placing it in your motherly Heart.

Immaculate Heart! Help us to conquer the menace of evil, which so easily takes root in the hearts of the people of today, and whose immeasurable effects already weigh down upon our modern world and seem to block the paths towards the future!

From famine and war, deliver us.

From nuclear war, from incalculable self-destruction, from every kind of war, deliver us.

From sins against the life of man from its very beginning, deliver us.

From hatred and from the demeaning of the dignity of the children of God, deliver us.

From every kind of injustice in the life of society, both national and international, deliver us.

From readiness to trample on the commandments of God, deliver us.

From attempts to stifle in human hearts the very truth of God, deliver us.

From the loss of awareness of good and evil, deliver us.

From sins against the Holy Spirit, deliver us, deliver us.

Accept, O Mother of Christ, this cry laden with the sufferings of all individual human beings, laden with the sufferings of whole societies.

Help us with the power of the Holy Spirit to conquer all sin: individual sin and the ‘sin of the world’, sin in all its manifestations.

Let there be revealed, once more, in the history of the world the infinite saving power of the Redemption: the power of merciful Love! May it put a stop to evil! May it transform consciences! May your Immaculate Heart reveal for all the light of Hope!”.(4)

 

[peary]

"The letter of Sister Lucia to Father Fox (dated July 3, 1990) is a demonstrable fraud. Sister Lucia is most certainly not the author of that letter because Sister Lucia certainly would not have written the outright lie that is stated in that letter. The text of that letter reads in response to the question, “If the consecration made by Pope John Paul II on March 25, 1984, in union with all the bishops of the world, accomplished the conditions for the conversion of Russia according to the request of Our Lady in Tuy on June 13, of 1929”? The answer to that question reads: "Yes, it was accomplished, and since then I have said that it was made