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judechild
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No, “mother of the Church” is of course Mary. John Paul II is addressing Mary and is making the consecration of Russia, which Our Lady up to that point had been awaiting. I will attempt to find the full text.
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I_Believe
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Ok, thanks. I’m off to work, so no hurry. Probably be near midnight when I get home.
God Bless
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VitaminC
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Following the publication of The Last Secret of Fatima, Christopher Ferrara published his book The Secret Still Hidden exposing and debunking a vast number of claims made by Cardinal Bertone. In my opinion, Cardinal Bertone’s book is full of vast lies, misrepresentations, and references to forged letters of Sr. Lucia. Ferrara’s book has an appendix entitled “101 Grounds for Doubting Cardinal Bertone’s Account.”
And with regard to Sr. Lucia acknowledging the sufficiency of the 1984 consecration, she stated publicly more than once after this interview that the consecration had NOT been satisfactory.
From the Devil’s Final Battle, by Fr. Paul Kramer:
September 1985 - In an interview in Sol de Fatima magazine (a publication of friends of the Spanish Blue Army), Sister Lucy affirms that the Consecration of Russia still has not been done because, yet again, Russia was not the clear object of the 1984 consecration and the world’s episcopate did not participate.
1985 - Cardinal Gagnon, in an interview with Father Caillon, acknowledges the Consecration of Russia has still not been done.
1986 - Maria do Fetal publicly quotes Sister Lucy (her cousin) as saying that the Consecration of Russia still has not been done. Maria do Fetal will consistently maintain that Sister Lucy told her this until July 1989
July 20, 1987 - Interviewed quickly outside her convent while voting, Sister Lucy confirms to journalist Enrico Romero that the Consecration of Russia has not been done.
October 25, 1987 - In an audience with a dozen Catholic leaders, Cardinal Mayer publicly acknowledges that the Consecration has not been done according to Our Lady’s specific request.
November 26, 1987 - In a private meeting, Cardinal Stickler confirms that the Consecration has not been done because the Pope lacks the support of the bishops. “They do not obey him,” says Cardinal Stickler.
1988 - Cardinal Gagnon attacks Father Gruner for publishing the Caillon report of his 1985 statement that the Consecration has not yet been done. Cardinal Gagnon admits speaking to Father Caillon, and does not deny the truth of his report, but says it was not meant for publication.
1989 - More than 350 Roman Catholic bishops respond to a letter from Father Gruner, confirming their willingness to consecrate Russia with the Pope as requested by Our Lady at Fatima.
July 1989 - In the presence of three witnesses at the Hotel Solar da Marta in Fatima, Father Messias Coelho reveals that Sister Lucy has just received an anonymous “instruction” from unidentified persons in the Vatican bureaucracy. The “instruction” states that Sister Lucy and her fellow religious must now say that the Consecration of Russia was accomplished in the ceremony of March 25, 1984, even though Russia was never mentioned and the world’s bishops did not participate.
After this development, various witnesses — including, it is claimed, Sister Lucy herself — begin to repudiate their own prior statements that the Consecration has not been done. These witnesses previously clearly stated that Russia could not possibly have been consecrated as requested in the Fatima Message because of the failure to mention Russia and the failure to obtain the participation of the world’s bishops. Thus begins a process of “revising” Our Lady’s request from the Consecration of Russia to the Consecration of the world. At the same time, powerful forces from within the Vatican apparatus begin to target Father Gruner and his apostolate for suppression.
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VitaminC
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No – Cardinal Bertone claims that Sr. Lucia gave her assurances. Sr. Lucia giving her assurances, and Cardinal Bertone claiming that she did are two completely different things.
And it’s a good thing Cardinal Bertone is not Pinocchio. Because if he were, I think his nose would have grown so long by now that it would have travelled all the way around the world and poked him in the butt.
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VitaminC
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I’m afraid you just shot yourself in the foot. Pope JPII actually made these remarks AFTER the 1984 consecration had been performed. After this consecration, he spoke of a consecration that the Blessed Virgin was still “awaiting.”
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JesusILove
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So is the entire 3rd secret published? Because personally I don’t think it is. Russia hasn’t been converted yet.
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VitaminC
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I don’t think so, either. And I also don’t believe it revolves primarily around Vatican II despite what this new report claims. It simply doesn’t mesh with certain evidence even though it is logically consistent with other evidence. I believe the Third Secret references something much larger in scope, which is why it was intended for release to the “world” in 1960, rather than the Vatican or even the Church at large.
With regard to the “period of peace”, the book of Apocalypse refers to a period of peace that happens after antichrist is destroyed by God and before the final battle. And the second secret does state “in the end.” It seems unclear whether this period of peace is one that is to precede the events of the Apocalypse or of it is the one referred to after the return of Christ.
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RosaryCrusader
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For those thinking the consecration has been done and state that there is no timeline for the conversion of Russia:
Sr. Lucia said OUR LORD said that the conversion of Russia would take place in such a way that it would be clearly seen as a miracle attributed to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. If 100 years pass and things progress through normal political dissolutions and eventually the nation becomes Catholic this clearly cannot be seen as miraculous. There is obviously something lacking as Russia has gotten worse since the consecration unlike when the Bishops of Portugal consecrated their nation (twice) with startling and miraculous results. I don’t have time to post specifics but google it and see what happened to Portugal when they consecrated their nation.
A consecration has to name the object intended to be consecrated. It’s obvious that God wants our humble submission to His will and it’s clear as day that Pope John Paul II decided to take the politically correct unoffensive route and attempt it without deliberately naming “Russia.” He basically did the same thing that Pope Pius XII did and Sr. Lucy said that wasn’t what Our Lady requested. The purported letters by Sr. Lucy saying it was accepted, and the accounts of Cardinal Bertone, are highly questionable. Do yourself a favor and pick up Chris Ferarra’s book.
Sr. Lucia said OUR LORD said that the conversion of Russia would take place in such a way that it would be clearly seen as a miracle attributed to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. If 100 years pass and things progress through normal political dissolutions and eventually the nation becomes Catholic this clearly cannot be seen as miraculous. There is obviously something lacking as Russia has gotten worse since the consecration unlike when the Bishops of Portugal consecrated their nation (twice) with startling and miraculous results. I don’t have time to post specifics but google it and see what happened to Portugal when they consecrated their nation.
A consecration has to name the object intended to be consecrated. It’s obvious that God wants our humble submission to His will and it’s clear as day that Pope John Paul II decided to take the politically correct unoffensive route and attempt it without deliberately naming “Russia.” He basically did the same thing that Pope Pius XII did and Sr. Lucy said that wasn’t what Our Lady requested. The purported letters by Sr. Lucy saying it was accepted, and the accounts of Cardinal Bertone, are highly questionable. Do yourself a favor and pick up Chris Ferarra’s book.
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GodIsGracious
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I may have missed this in the thread, but I was wondering, what exactly does it mean to “consecrate” a country to the Immaculate Heart of Mary? Like, what are the steps, what are the words, what does it mean.
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I_Believe
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Dempsey1919
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The Holy Father should perform the Consecration to remove any and all doubt. John Paul II may have already consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart, but his efforts are doubted by many individuals. Even if the consecration has already taken place, I see no reason why another would cause any problems.
Therefore, Benedict XVI should perform another consecration, and do it in such a way as to remove all doubt. He should explicity mention “Russia” during the consecration, and he should order all of the Bishops to participate. The Pope has the power to do this.
If the SSPX meets it’s goal of 12 million Rosaries, I think the Holy Father will grant the request of the faithful and perform another consecration.
Therefore, Benedict XVI should perform another consecration, and do it in such a way as to remove all doubt. He should explicity mention “Russia” during the consecration, and he should order all of the Bishops to participate. The Pope has the power to do this.
If the SSPX meets it’s goal of 12 million Rosaries, I think the Holy Father will grant the request of the faithful and perform another consecration.
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aicirt
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Let me understand. Twice two Popes, Pius XII and John Paul II, have consecreated but did not use the name “Russia” in the consecration. Both had the necessary support of the bishops. What would stop them from using the word “Russia”?
IMO Fatima was truly unique because of the Miracle of the Sun with 70,000 as witnesses. I think many thought that if the BVM instructions were followed, there would be a miracle equal to the Miracle of the Sun regarding the conversion of Russia. I really don’t think the BVM wanted this dragging on for 82 years. Remember, there were more killed in Russia than the whole of WWII and those deaths amounted to 50 million worldwide. At some point, as the above poster noted, it will be difficult to connect any change in Russia with Fatima.
Why go through the motions and not do as instructed? And it should be obvious that if Pius XII did it correctly it would not have been necessary for John Paul II to do it again yet he didn’t do it correctly either. And both are up for sainthood? Not that they weren’t good men but if you believe, and I think they strongly believed, why would you not do as instructed?
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aicirt
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Not adept enough to put site here, but you might want to Google Alexandra da Costa or Alexandra of Portugal. She too received instructions regarding the consecration of nations after Fatima. According to the site, Pope Pius XI should have consecrated Russia but didn’t. Pope Pius XII followed the instructions given to Alexandra and consecrated the world to the BVM in the 1940s on the 25th anniversary of Fatima.
Sister Lucy commented later that the war would end but Russia would not be converted.
Sister Lucy commented later that the war would end but Russia would not be converted.
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Timothysis
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Actually, I think you have a misunderstanding of the pope’s power over bishops. Those in charge in the Holy See are very aware of the problems that some bishops present; ordering them to do something that they otherwise would not do or want to do would be a great way to solve issues but the reality is that it wouldn’t work. If it did, then we would have an end to liturgical abuses and dissent against Church teaching. Imagine the pope ordering the SSPX to stop fostering the mentality of the past 20 years and present themselves to him for reconciliation; do you think they would reply in the affirmative?
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Amicus_Curae
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I see Fatima and other places and times in which our Blessed Mother Mary appeared were God’s idea of a “WAKE UP CALL” Mary had a message to deliver in person to humanity that God wanted delivered immediately . I know this sounds simplified but its the easiest way to understand things and get to the heart of the messsge which was REPENT, CONFESS , PRAY, BELIEVE , GO TO MASS as often as possible
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Dempsey1919
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I think my understanding is correct. Pope Benedict XVI has authority over every single Bishop in the world. If he ordered the Bishops to participate in a new Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, all of the Bishops would have to comply.
Read Lumen Gentium:
**Lumen Gentium Paragraph 22:
**The pope’s power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power.
Source:vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
The Supreme Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. If Benedict XVI wanted, he could order the entire Hierarchy to participate in a new Consecration. Although, I suspect some members of the clergy would be disobedient and refuse to take part.
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JesusILove
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Thank you for your answer. I don’t know what the 3rd secret is. But the 2nd hasn’t been fulfilled either. Part of it has been though. The part where the 1st World War would end but a second and worse one will start if Russia doesn’t convert. That clearly happened. The 2nd half of the 2nd secret, the conversion of Russia to Mary’s Immaculate Heart, like you said, hasn’t been done.
I don’t get where people love to argue about this revelation. Isn’t the main message to pray the Rosary for peace?
And I don’t think the 3rd secret has to do with Vatican 2 either. Because, Blessed Pope John XXIII’s body is incorrupt. And he was the pope who started Vatican II.
The peace of Christ be with you all.
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aicirt
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Although I think an incorrupt body is miraculous, I don’t believe the Church bases sainthood on that fact. St. Francis’ body isn’t incorrupt.
Medgar Evers body is the only Protestant known not to be corrupted. He was embalmed.
Was Blessed Pope John XXIII’s body embalmed?
There are over 250 Catholic saints whose bodies remain incorrupt. Oldest might be St. Silvan who died about 409 AD. The body has stayed intact for 1,600 years. I think I read that St. Cecilia is also incorrupt as is St. Bernadette,and St. John Bosco and St. Rita to name a few.
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judechild
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I don’t share that view of Cardinal Bertone. The way I see it, if we can’t trust Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, there’s no one in this world we can trust; his record is nothing but laudable.
As for Sr. Lucia not having given her assurances, this except from a letter written by her is available on www.theotokos.org.uk:
Sr. Lucia wrote extensively to many people and she never to my knowlege said that she considered the third secret less than complete. I see no reason to doubt the Cardinal’s efforts or motives.
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judechild
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The reason John Paul II did not use the name “Russia” in his consecration is because of his interest in ecumenism. The Patriarch of Moscow would certainly see it as a declaration of war between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The important thing to remember, in my opinion, is that the consecration is not necessarily to overtly bring about a conversion of Russia to Catholicism, but to return to her own roots and traditions.
Some would consider the fall of Communism in Russia a miraculous event; the youth of Moscow dancing in the street holding icons and being able to worship legally again allows me to be more optimistic about Russia’s future.
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