Fed up with irreverence

[JReducation]

No it’s not, I am wrong most of the time but I still retain the dignity of an adopted son of God.
The thing is that we all have that dignity and that means we must listen to a respect eachother and most of all respect and obey the Supreme Magisterium. If we don’t we end up in chaos. Even the pope is not some autocrat, the pope is bound to serve the deposit of the faith.

I agree with you 100%. I would only add something that John Paul II said as he was dying. “The older the Church gets the better she understands her faith.”

If I can remember the source I’ll post it. I just saw this somewhere this past week. But I can’t recall where. I know it was reliable.

It it is the Pope’s job to ensure that the world understands the faith more clearly. Given the complex world in which we live and how the mens of communication sometimes hinder, rather than help good communication, this is not an easy job to execute, if you know what I mean.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[1holycatholic]

The mass in my parish is the Novus Ordo. The priest does not shake hands with the congregation at the kiss of peace. The priest is not to leave the sanctuary during the mass.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

That doesn’t seem right. Unless there is an altar rail, the priest typically leaves the sanctuary (the elevated area around the altar) to distribute the eucharist.

I have seen the priest leave the sanctuary during a homily at a “Life Teen” mass. It freaked me out when he walked out among the pews. Then again there were so many irregular things occurring at “Life Teen” I wondered if I was in a Catholic Church.

 

[sancte_joseph]

That doesn’t seem right. Unless there is an altar rail,** the priest typically leaves the sanctuary **(the elevated area around the altar) to distribute the eucharist.

I have seen the priest leave the sanctuary during a homily at a “Life Teen” mass. It freaked me out when he walked out among the pews. Then again there were so many irregular things occurring at “Life Teen” I wondered if I was in a Catholic Church.

Well technically (sp?) the sanctuary also includes a bit of the area around the elevated part…which use to be marked by the altar rail…but o well other than that the priest should not go out of the sanctuary that would be a disruption to the liturgy…unless of course someone in a pew is in need of the eucharist then the deacon if present should go

 

[JReducation]

There are legitimate situations when the priest leaves the sanctuary, usch as funerals when he goes over to the family of the deceased during the greeting of peace or at a wedding, if the couple is not in the sanctuary because the sanctuary is not large enough to accomodate the bride and groom.

In conventual liturgies, those celebrated in a monastery or friary, the celebrant does go to his brothers. The rules in these circusmstances are different. I often attend conventual mass at our parish and this is done very appropriately, runs smoothly and with great reverence. The laity who attends usually sit behind the religious.

I also recently attended the profession of vows of a religious where the priest who was also the superior of the community went to the newly professed and to their families for the kiss of peace.

Then there are exceptions the other way around, when those attending mass may come up to the sanctuary for very specific reasons.

What we have to remember here is that not everything is a scandal. Some situations have very reasonable explanations.

About four months ago I attended a profession of vows of a sister at an EF mass. It was a traditionalist community, a very holy group of sisters. When a religious maks vows, she does not make them to the priest who is presiding at the mass. She makes them to the superior of the community.

There was a presidential chair in front of the altar, at the bottom of the three steps. The Superior sat there while the priest sat on the side, and the sister knelt before her to profess her vows. Once the rite of profession was over, the chair was quietly taken away and the mass continued.

My point is that we have to be well informed as to why some things happen. They are not always abuses. Sometimes they have a reasonable explanation.

In our community, even though we are a secular community, the priest is also a member of the community. When we have community mass, the priest does approach the superior of the community for the sgn of peace. The superior passes it on to the rest of the community. This is part of the humility and love that every member of the community is to show toward the superior since the superior is the voice of Christ in the community.

JR

 

[1holycatholic]

Well technically (sp?) the sanctuary also includes a bit of the area around the elevated part…which use to be marked by the altar rail…but o well other than that the priest should not go out of the sanctuary that would be a disruption to the liturgy…unless of course someone in a pew is in need of the eucharist then the deacon if present should go

I thought that area is called the nave.

It is confusing. In the EF Parish the altar rail is used for the EF but not for the OF where the priest comes down onto the floor near the pews. In another Parish the altar rail is always used and they only celebrate the OF.

 

[JReducation]

I thought that area is called the nave.

It is confusing. In the EF Parish the altar rail is used for the EF but not for the OF where the priest comes down onto the floor near the pews. In another Parish the altar rail is always used and they only celebrate the OF.

I’m confused. I’m not sure which part you’re talking about. My former parish had the communion rail, which we didn’t use, be were left intact, because it was part of the beautiful architecture of the Church, built in the late 1800s.

Are you referring to that area? It’s usually floor space just below the platform on which the altar sits. But it’s inside the rails or imaginary rails, if you don’t actually have real ones.

JR

 

[1holycatholic]

I’m confused. I’m not sure which part you’re talking about. My former parish had the communion rail, which we didn’t use, be were left intact, because it was part of the beautiful architecture of the Church, built in the late 1800s.

Are you referring to that area? It’s usually floor space just below the platform on which the altar sits. But it’s inside the rails or imaginary rails, if you don’t actually have real ones.

JR

My understanding is:

• Sanctuary (with altar, chairs, etc.)
• Altar Rail (built on the edge of the Sanctuary separating the Sanctuary and the Nave.)
• Nave (with pews, Stations of Cross etc.)
  In one parish when the EF mass is celebrated and the priest never goes past the rail. The Eucharist is distributed to those kneeling at the rail. In the same parish the priest walks past the rail into the nave to distribute the Eucharist during an OF mass.

In another parish which has a rail, it is always used and they only celebrate the OF.

My parish has no altar rail and the priest (and deacon when present) walk out into the nave near the pews to distribute the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[1holycatholic]

I’m confused. I’m not sure which part you’re talking about. My former parish had the communion rail, which we didn’t use, be were left intact, because it was part of the beautiful architecture of the Church, built in the late 1800s.

Are you referring to that area? It’s usually floor space just below the platform on which the altar sits. But it’s inside the rails or imaginary rails, if you don’t actually have real ones.

JR

If Les Nessman were a Catholic Priest would he put tape on the floor where the altar rails would be?

 

[JReducation]

My understanding is:

• Sanctuary (with altar, chairs, etc.)
• Altar Rail (built on the edge of the Sanctuary separating the Sanctuary and the Nave.)
• Nave (with pews, Stations of Cross etc.)
  In one parish when the EF mass is celebrated and the priest never goes past the rail. The Eucharist is distributed to those kneeling at the rail. In the same parish the priest walks past the rail into the nave to distribute the Eucharist during an OF mass.

In another parish which has a rail, it is always used and they only celebrate the OF.

My parish has no altar rail and the priest (and deacon when present) walk out into the nave near the pews to distribute the Blessed Sacrament.

I got the picture now. The rule is that the presider in either form is not to step off the platform to distribute Holy Communion, unless there is a physical necessity.

I’ve seen some physical necessities. An older priest who can’t bend over without some pain. Being on the floor with the communicant is easier. Two of our friars are physically disabled. One props himself on crutches. Bending downward is dangerous, because he can lose his balance. He steps off the platform so that he’s at the same level as the communicant. Another of our friars is in a wheel chair. He prefers to remain on the platform, because it raises him to where he can reach the communicant should the perosn want to receive on the tongue.

I’ve also seen the priest leave the sanctuary to bring communion to persons with disabilities and seniors. In our parish the first row on the right side of the congregation is reserved for this group. Different parishes have different arrangements.

JR

 

[1holycatholic]

I got the picture now. The rule is that the presider in either form is not to step off the platform to distribute Holy Communion, unless there is a physical necessity.

I’ve seen some physical necessities. An older priest who can’t bend over without some pain. Being on the floor with the communicant is easier. Two of our friars are physically disabled. One props himself on crutches. Bending downward is dangerous, because he can lose his balance. He steps off the platform so that he’s at the same level as the communicant. Another of our friars is in a wheel chair. He prefers to remain on the platform, because it raises him to where he can reach the communicant should the perosn want to receive on the tongue.

I’ve also seen the priest leave the sanctuary to bring communion to persons with disabilities and seniors. In our parish the first row on the right side of the congregation is reserved for this group. Different parishes have different arrangements.

JR

My parish also has a small side chapel off of the narthex. It doesn’t have a distinct sanctuary. There is an elevated area at one end with a kneeling rail around the tabernacle. The area isn’t big enough to accommodate anything else besides the tabernacle. The presider’s chair is on the floor in one corner a lectern in the other corner and the altar is a small wooden table in the center of the room. There are two rows of wooden chairs (no kneelers) on either side of the room. I’m guessing it might accomodate 40 people. It is used for most weekday masses.

 

[JReducation]

My parish also has a small side chapel off of the narthex. It doesn’t have a distinct sanctuary. There is an elevated area at one end with a kneeling rail around the tabernacle. The area isn’t big enough to accommodate anything else besides the tabernacle. The presider’s chair is on the floor in one corner a lectern in the other corner and the altar is a small wooden table in the center of the room. There are two rows of wooden chairs (no kneelers) on either side of the room. I’m guessing it might accomodate 40 people. It is used for most weekday masses.

Please tell me you’re talking about the chapel and not the main church.

JR

 

[1holycatholic]

Please tell me you’re talking about the chapel and not the main church.

JR

Of course. :yup:

I have been in some of the larger Churches in Spain and Italy, there are multiple small chapels around the perimeter of the main Church. I have been to a weekday mass in the side chapels. Some are quite tiny.

 

[JReducation]

Of course. :yup:

I have been in some of the larger Churches in Spain and Italy, there are multiple small chapels around the perimeter of the main Church. I have been to a weekday mass in the side chapels. Some are quite tiny.

I know. I worked for the Archdiocese of Washington and the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception has many of these little chapels. They’re very beautiful. What I like most about them is that they’re very ethnic.

But their size makes it impossible to follow all the rules. There is just not enough room. You have to be a little bith more flexible when you celebrate mass in a space that small.

JR

 

[Joannm]

.

From a purely Franciscan and Bonaventurian perspective I understand this. God is perfect love and truth, therefore our hearts and minds must express that love and truth in our worship so that we can carry it out in our lives. In addition, our hearts and minds need help to see Truth and Love. Therefore, liturgical action must reflect both for our benefit, more than for God’s benefit.

That being said, we must always embrace the highest and most perfect truth and love, which is the crucified one present to us in the Eucharist. All other things must serve to help man see the crucified Lord Jesus Christ and to embrace him in the Eucharist.

As St. Francis often reminded St. Anthony, the study of theology is good as long as it does not interfere with real prayer. There is no higher prayer than the liturgy. I think we’re getting stuck on the theology and not working hard enough on encouraging each other to contemplation.

Just my two cents.

Fraternally,

JR

I agree. Doing the liturgy is the primary theology…talking about it, studying it, regulating it is secondary. The experience leads to the reflection, the study, not the other way around.

The problem is that many here only see liturgy in what is called the “thin” sense - the protocol, the ceremony, the rubrics.

What is called for it to look beyond, to what gives the rubrics their value. This is liturgy in the “thick” sense. It is an encounter with God, a participation in the perichoresis of the Trinity.

As a good professor was fond of saying. “God did not come to create rubrics, and create them in abundance.”

 

[JReducation]

I agree. Doing the liturgy is the primary theology…talking about it, studying it, regulating it is secondary. The experience leads to the reflection, the study, not the other way around.

The problem is that many here only see liturgy in what is called the “thin” sense - the protocol, the ceremony, the rubrics.

What is called for it to look beyond, to what gives the rubrics their value. This is liturgy in the “thick” sense. It is an encounter with God, a participation in the perichoresis of the Trinity.

As a good professor was fond of saying. “God did not come to create rubrics, and create them in abundance.”

I like your professor.

I also agreethat we must look for the perichoresis, otherwise we will end up creating rubrics about the rubrics.

Rubrics are important because they serve two purposes: 1) they unite the body systematically and 2) they lead the body to express the reality that is being celebrated.

However, the focus of the worshipper must be the same as that of the rubrics. If the worshipper is focussed on the rubrics, then they become a distraction rather than an aid.

JR

 

[maggiemay2u]

Sounds like a pro-SSPX attitude to me.

Not to sound impertinent, but what does that mean?

 

[strugglingalong]

I attend daily mass (NO), although I prefer the EF that I attend on Sundays. I have come to a crossroads. I know that the OF is valid and that it can indeed be celebrated reverently, but somehow I cannot stomach the irreverence showed by some priests in the NO. It’s almost as if some priests make a political statement of being irreverent. I’m fed up with priests shaking hand with the whole congregation at the sign of peace. I’m fed up with EM at almost all masses. I long for the EF. I don’t know where to turn so I turn to Our Lord Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, O Lord, is this the worship we , your holy Church should give to you? You, who have loved us so much that you died on the cross for our redemption. Is this the way we should conduct ourselves in your most holy presence? Frankly I’m not into parish shopping, but I’m looking for a parish that exclusively celebrates the EF.

Could you give me some advice?
Would it be bad for me to give up daily mass?
Could this be the Lord testing my humility?

Well just a few thoughts. All you said resonants within me because I went through the same thing. I was attending daily Mass in a NO parish while attending the TLM on weekends. It came to a point where I was frustrated and the edification I found at the TLM was so lacking during the week. The sermons were watered down and ambiguous, the people were not reverent, the girl altar boy waltzed around in tennis shoes. I asked a priest I trust and he said that if I thought attending the NO was causing more harm than good that it could be better to only attend the TLM on Saturdays and Sundays.

Recently however I discovered a local NO parish that seems a bit better. It’s a little more reverent and the parish is more traditional in appearance. I’m considering trying daily Mass there. Is there a different NO parish near by that may be better?

But the best answer is to pray. Pray to Our Lord most of all for Him to save us from this situation, to help the Church with her liturgy and all she is going through. Offer sacrifices for our priests, bishops and Pope. Ask Him what to do. He loves you. He’ll show you.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[maggiemay2u]

Just letting you know, I’m not a SSPX supporter. However, I’m not a sr Chittister supporter either, as some, for obvious reasons.

What a pity anyone has to distance, define, deny or defend themselves from misguided humor.

I love the Latin Mass, I also love the Mass of V2. I was blessed with being present at a university which housed the diocese seminary, so we were on the vanguard of implementation.

What I don’t like is what NO has morphed into in various dioceses. Instead of the housing the faithful journeying jubilantly towards adoration of the Father, many of our churches have become little more than meeting halls, with little regard for Whom is present, before, during and after Mass. Please note I am not claiming this is true across the board, but its prevalence cannot be dismissed.

As for quietly “offering it up” I see the merit, but the words “for evil to triumph requires only that good men do nothing” echo in my head.

I have written to the archdiocese and the diocesan newspaper, regarding my concern that there is an eroding of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament, with little hope for change in the near future.

NO folks along with the LT folks should all take a breath. Maybe if we stopped arguing about the form of the Mass and banded together to rid ourselves of the abuses and failings, we just might get somewhere.

 

[JReducation]

What a pity anyone has to distance, define, deny or defend themselves from misguided humor.

I love the Latin Mass, I also love the Mass of V2. I was blessed with being present at a university which housed the diocese seminary, so we were on the vanguard of implementation.

What I don’t like is what NO has morphed into in various dioceses. Instead of the housing the faithful journeying jubilantly towards adoration of the Father, many of our churches have become little more than meeting halls, with little regard for Whom is present, before, during and after Mass. Please note I am not claiming this is true across the board, but its prevalence cannot be dismissed.

As for quietly “offering it up” I see the merit, but the words “for evil to triumph requires only that good men do nothing” echo in my head.

I have written to the archdiocese and the diocesan newspaper, regarding my concern that there is an eroding of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament, with little hope for change in the near future.

**NO folks along with the LT folks should all take a breath. Maybe if we stopped arguing about the form of the Mass and banded together to rid ourselves of the abuses and failings, we just might get somewhere. **

You have hit the nail right on the head. We have to roll up our sleeves and fix what needs fixing and respect what we have. We have two form of the same mass. Both are holy and both lead us to holiness. Anything that gets in the way needs to be fixed. It’s that simple.

It’s not a matter of what form is superior. It’s a matter for where our hearts are. Do we want to worship God or just bicker back and forth?

I don’t see us having this bickering with the Byzantine Catholics. Why are we doing with within the western Church? My guess is that it has more to do with Western culture. We are too used to turning everthing into a political issue or something to be analyzed.

Our Byzantine brothers and sisters come from cultures where silence is golden. They are used to doing what they need to do to stay on the path to God.

We need to learn this lesson too. We need to fix, edit, cut, add, delete, whatever it takes, so that we can stay on the path to God. I’m not talking about reformatting our faith. I’m talking about reformatting us.

JR

 

[1holycatholic]

You have hit the nail right on the head. We have to roll up our sleeves and fix what needs fixing and respect what we have. We have two form of the same mass. Both are holy and both lead us to holiness. Anything that gets in the way needs to be fixed. It’s that simple.

It’s not a matter of what form is superior. It’s a matter for where our hearts are. Do we want to worship God or just bicker back and forth?

I don’t see us having this bickering with the Byzantine Catholics. Why are we doing with within the western Church? My guess is that it has more to do with Western culture. We are too used to turning everthing into a political issue or something to be analyzed.

Our Byzantine brothers and sisters come from cultures where silence is golden. They are used to doing what they need to do to stay on the path to God.

We need to learn this lesson too. We need to fix, edit, cut, add, delete, whatever it takes, so that we can stay on the path to God. I’m not talking about reformatting our faith. I’m talking about reformatting us.

JR

My wife and I are converts to the Church (2005.) We have been to Melkite Byzantine, Ruthenian Byzantine, Maronite as well as the ordinary form and extraordinary form (previously the indult) Masses/Divine Liturgies.

Only one “Mass” ever upset me. It was called “Life Teen”, but it was really unspeakable liturgical abuse.

If that was at my parish when I was investigating the Church, I probably would not have become Catholic.

I wish there was some sort of dress code like at St. Peter’s Basilica. A tennis dress (or similar) isn’t appropriate for mass. Ladies, I shouldn’t see your entire panty clad bottom when you are in front of me and you bow.