Fed up with phony confirmations

[excubitor]

I can’t tell you how fed up I am with the great majority of “in-name-only”, hatch-match-dispatch catholics who come in for christening marriage and funerals and you never see them otherwise.
Of particular distaste to me is the confirmations that come in as a routine from the local catholic schools. These people never come to church any other week of the year but when little jonny or jenny is getting confirmed they all arrive with cameras popping. The little dears parade in their suits and white dresses looking like debutantes all sparkled up with cubic zirconia necklaces. They all bring a vast array of family and friends many of whom exhibit little knowledge or respect for the church or its liturgy. The vast majority of all these people go up for the sacrament. Who are all these people? Where have they all come from? The whole mass becomes a circus. The car park is full and everyone thinks look how many people are going to church. But they aren’t. They’re not going to church. They are going to a family event.

Meanwhile the true Catholics who attend week in and week out with a reverent heart and spirit are distracted from their worship and the sacredness of the mass is spoiled by this great influx. What is of particular distaste to me is that this charade turns the confirmation into a kind of social rite, no different to a debutante. When there is a true confirmation being said with a family and young person who attend faithfully every week you find your joy is robbed because you are forever seeing these sham events.

I’m not sure what the solution is, but one remedy might be to go back to the old idea of the Mass of the Faithful and the Mass of the Catechumens. Let’s make it quite clear that the mass is for the “Faithful” and that unfaithful people should not be there. And if the mass is only for the faithful then the other sacred sacraments also are only available for the faithful.

I know that is not the rule of the church today but this approach might restore holiness to the mass. Vatican II and Pope John Paul II repeatedly called for holiness in the “universall call to holiness”. Holiness must start in each Catholic, then Catholic’s assembled together at mass so that our masses are as holy as they might possibly be. The mass is an offering to God, it should be a holy offering from a holy people. Numbers are not so important. With ever more sacred and holy masses being offered each week then holiness shall begin to reach into the world like light reaching into the darkness.

Confirmation is a sacred sacrament, not a social rite of passage. We really need to get back to basics.

 

[coolduude]

True, true.

It seems that Confirmation and First Communion become shows, for exactly the reasons you listed.

However, maybe the ones being Confirmed will change in the long run. Maybe they’ll become devout. You never know!

 

[autdrew]

I very much agree. Especially when I lived in southern California. I notice the same thing with Baptisms as well. The church I attended had baptisms during the Mass on the 3rd Sunday. There were people no one had ever seen, having their child baptized & you didnt see them again until it was time for 1st Communion. It is very sad.
Our confirmation team used to ask the kids why they were getting confirmed. Most were their because their parents said they had to. Some actually claimed a bribe by the parents. The team would bring the parent in and try to talk to both. It seems to be something we “do” because its what we are supposed to do. (box checkers) I do have hope that for some of these children & their parents, some of the grace their are given in the sacrament will work in their souls. I have hope because He can do it.
As sad & inconvenient as it is a few times a year, I try to present the kind of Catholic I want them to be & not the stereotype they may be expecting. I try remind myself of what they are missing & pray for them (while I am driving in circles finding a parking spot its not so easy)

 

[Jimmy_B]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**1432 **The human heart is heavy and hardened. God must give man a new heart. Conversion is first of all a work of the grace of God who makes our hearts return to him: “Restore us to thyself, O LORD, that we may be restored!” God gives us the strength to begin anew. It is in discovering the greatness of God’s love that our heart is shaken by the horror and weight of sin and begins to fear offending God by sin and being separated from him. The human heart is converted by looking upon him whom our sins have pierced:

Let us fix our eyes on Christ’s blood and understand how precious it is to his Father, for, poured out for our salvation it has brought to the whole world the grace of repentance.

**1489 **To return to communion with God after having lost it through sin is a process born of the grace of God who is rich in mercy and solicitous for the salvation of men. One must ask for this precious gift for oneself and for others.

 

[CDNowak]

I’m not sure what the solution is, but one remedy might be to go back to the old idea of the Mass of the Faithful and the Mass of the Catechumens. Let’s make it quite clear that the mass is for the “Faithful” and that unfaithful people should not be there. And if the mass is only for the faithful then the other sacred sacraments also are only available for the faithful.

snip<

Restoring the proper age for Confirmation would help.

 

[ishii]

.

Meanwhile the true Catholics who attend week in and week out with a reverent heart and spirit are distracted from their worship and the sacredness of the mass is spoiled by this great influx.
. Let’s make it quite clear that the mass is for the “Faithful” and that unfaithful people should not be there. And if the mass is only for the faithful then the other sacred sacraments also are only available for the faithful.
.

I would be careful with this. The Catholic Church is not exclusive. Who is to say that someone (a lukeware Catholic, say) might not be moved while attending mass after a long absence (one of those “unfaithful” folks you refer to) to get back to the sacracments and the regular attendance at mass. Who are we to decide how the Holy Spirit works?

The unfaithful should not be there? And who is to decide who the “unfaithful” are? Do you have a window into their souls? No, you don’t, so you would do better to concentrate on yourself. Remove the plank in your eye, before the splinter in someone else’s.

Ishii

 

[Redbaron998]

This is why when i teach my kids at the church before Comfirmation I make it clear that its thier choice. Baptism and First Eucharist happen when your pretty much to young to make a descision. Confirmation is your choice about whether you are gonna stick with it or not. Its about being honest to yourself. You can always come back and do it later if you change your mind but I make it clear if you dont believe in the Church you should not be confirmed.

Am I wrong to do that?

 

[autdrew]

Red Baron, I personally think that is the correct way of putting it. I would rather the child be educated fully and brought to Mass regularly but leave the final decision to them. When they are forced they dont seem to see it as important for them, just important for their parents.

 

[choy]

Restoring the proper age for Confirmation would help.

which is?

isn’t it common now for kids/teens to be confirmed around 12-16 in most archdiocese?

 

[Battleaxe]

The unfaithful should not be there? And who is to decide who the “unfaithful” are?

Some of them are among the ones who make such a racket inside the church or at the church doors that it sounds like the interior of a tavern or a beer hall. And they take no notice when the priest reminds them: “This is God`s House!”.
Total lack of respect!

Do you have a window into their souls? No, you don’t, so you would do better to concentrate on yourself. Remove the plank in your eye, before the splinter in someone else’s.
Ishii

Not necessarily applicable. Sometimes, we have good reasons for judging.

 

[excubitor]

I would be careful with this. The Catholic Church is not exclusive. Who is to say that someone (a lukeware Catholic, say) might not be moved while attending mass after a long absence (one of those “unfaithful” folks you refer to) to get back to the sacracments and the regular attendance at mass. Who are we to decide how the Holy Spirit works?

The unfaithful should not be there? And who is to decide who the “unfaithful” are? Do you have a window into their souls? No, you don’t, so you would do better to concentrate on yourself. Remove the plank in your eye, before the splinter in someone else’s.

Ishii

Excuse me but your judgment of me is harsh.
You are quite wrong to indicate that the Catholic Church is not exclusive. For 3 years I attended the Catholic church and jumped through hoops to go to RCIA and fulfill all the requirements before I could be baptised, confirmed and receive the sacraments. It was an intensively emotional even to the point of being traumatic period in my life. I have been instructed that the sacraments are only for catholics. First communion for me in my late 40’s was an intense and deeply meaningful experience. Whereas before this I had not been a part of the church and for me it was a deep privilege for me to at last be a member of the one holy apostolic church. Aren’t I allowed to have any feelings when I see people coming and going participating in the sacraments of the church with an air of inconsequence.

I don’t need a window into the soul to know whether a Catholic is faithful. It’s clear that he is not if he does not attend mass for years after baptising his child and then turns up with the school asking for the child’s confirmation. Blind Freddy can judge that they are not faithful catholics. Surely a priest can too.

Sadly, the sacraments of the church and the mass is being used as an ecumenical tool. This is a protestant approach which has been escalating in recent decades and this ethos has well and truly filtered into the Catholic church as well. The church is not an ecumenical device. It is the fold for the faithful sheep where the sheep can be fed, guarded and nurtured. Its not for the wild goats that wander the face of the world.

I believe that the charade needs to stop. Priests need the support and instruction from the Bishops to send unfaithful catholics away from the sacraments until they have spent a protracted period of time proving their faithfulness by regular church attendance and other virtuous deeds. You think this is harsh. Notice this account from the
Council of Nicea Canon (325). Which teaches that those who had lapsed from the faith without persecution were to spend twelve years as public penitents before they might be readmitted to the sacraments – and then of course only if a sincere conversion be evidenced by perseverance in a new life.

“Concerning those who have fallen without compulsion, without the spoiling of their property, without danger or the like, as happened during the tyranny of Licinius, the Synod declares that, though they have deserved no clemency, they shall be dealt with mercifully. As many as were communicants, if they heartily repent, shall pass three years among the hearers; for seven years they shall be prostrators; and for two years they shall communicate with the people in prayers, but without oblation.”

So I am not harsh because the Council says that withdrawing the sacraments is merciful. But today people lapse from the faith not only without compulsion but also without concern. They think nothing of it. They then rock up to the church for sacraments which people like myself have won with commitment, hard endeavour and regular attendance. And the clergy with virtually no discretion dish out the sacraments to fallen catholics as if they are small worthless trinkets.

Imagine how the people who died for the faith feel when they see from heaven people receiving the sacraments with such a carefree attitude. As parents and godparents they purjure themselves by making promises to nurture the christened baby in the Catholic faith, and then never go back to church again. They did the christening only to keep Grandma from pestering them, or because of some kind of expectation of society. They don’t even have enough regard for God as to imagine that he might punish them for not following through on their promises. These are kinds of indifferences that Our Lady mentioned at Fatima. They carry on like the sacraments are a party. “Look at me” in my suit. They flash their awarding winning smiles all over the church beckoning and waving to relatives that they have not seen since the last family/sacrament event. Don’t they understand that the Lord is present? Didn’t they see the red lamp showing that our Lord is there? They are so busy rounding up their family and sorting out the seating for the latecomers that they don’t stop to remember that they are at a sacred mass.

And then there is a little old lady (who thinks like me) grieving and in sorrow at the display going on around her and they don’t even see her. She does not even exist. In fact the whole congregation sort of gets shoved to the side and there’s this enclave of strangers who kind of take over the church. Then for example at a christening the congregation drones "We the people of XYZ parish promise to encourage the participation of parents and children in our community and to support them as they grow in faith "

A vow which noone thinks about or takes seriously. How can you ever uphold such a vow when you’ve never seen the people before and never expect to see them again?

Again I believe you are harshly judging me. If I treasure the sacraments like fine gold and tremble when I make my vows then how is it possible for me to not grieve when I see people disrespecting them and treating them as light matters.

 

[autdrew]

:extrahappy::tiphat::bowdown2::bowdown::yeah_me::yyeess::thankyou:

I think you hit the nail on the head! I think the convert who has gone through so much to receive those sacraments can be truly pained to see them treated so callously. I feel your pain.

 

[JohnDamian]

**2477 **Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:

• of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
• of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
• of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

You do not know that the other people attending are not Catholics who practice in their home parishes, but have traveled to celebrate with family and friends. You also assume that the person being Confirmed is from your local Parish.

My Confirmation is at a different church to the one I attend, would you assume that I was a lapsed or unserious Catholic because you have not seen me before? Would you also assume that any family I bring who are from other parts of the country are also unserious Catholics because you have not seen them before.

I must say, you should reconsider your uncharitable point of view. It is unfortunate that people will recieve sacraments improperly, but it is not your place to go about judging others.

 

[Joannm]

which is?

isn’t it common now for kids/teens to be confirmed around 12-16 in most archdiocese?

I say let’s put Confirmation back to baptism, like it was in the ancient Church and how it is done in the Eastern Rites and Orthodox Churches. Then we won’t have to deal with the teen age Confirmation/graduation dilemma. Those who want to be practicing Catholics will continue to grow in their faith and those who don’t won’t have to go through the charade.

 

[Joannm]

which is?

isn’t it common now for kids/teens to be confirmed around 12-16 in most archdiocese?

I say let’s put Confirmation back to baptism, like it was in the ancient Church and how it is done in the Eastern Rites and Orthodox Churches. Then we won’t have to deal with the teen age Confirmation/graduation dilemma. Those who want to be practicing Catholics will continue to grow in their faith and those who don’t won’t have to go through the charade.

 

[Paul1961]

I
The unfaithful should not be there? And who is to decide who the “unfaithful” are? Do you have a window into their souls? No, you don’t, so you would do better to concentrate on yourself. Remove the plank in your eye, before the splinter in someone else’s.

Ishii

Thank you Ishii.

 

[PaulinVA]

Well, excubitor, you have it half right.

These Confirmations are valid. Even if the parents are fallen away, or don’t believe, the grace conveyed is real.

The Church, I think, hopes that, through the graces of the sacraments, these children can believe more fervently than their parents.

Yes, the parents of many children presenting themselves for First Holy Communion and Confirmation (and sending their children to Religious Ed) don’t believe, and set foot in the church as little as possible. But, they promised to raise their kids Catholic, and, bless their non believing hearts, they are doing that. Support them and pray for their conversion.

 

[teachccd]

I wonder how Jesus’ post in this thread would read…

 

[colmywaykurtz]

This is why when i teach my kids at the church before Comfirmation I make it clear that its thier choice. Baptism and First Eucharist happen when your pretty much to young to make a descision. Confirmation is your choice about whether you are gonna stick with it or not. Its about being honest to yourself. You can always come back and do it later if you change your mind but I make it clear if you dont believe in the Church you should not be confirmed.

Am I wrong to do that?

I honestly don’t know for sure (if you’re right), but I know what a long-running story from the life of an old friend suggests to me.

He comes from a large Catholic family. Mom came from a long line of Catholics from Mexico. Dad was a convert from Congregationalist, but did so well before any of the children were born.

My friend went through Baptism and First Communion, took instruction for Confirmation, but balked at going through Confirmation, as he had persistent and profound doubts about Christianity in general. Mom was of a mind to force the issue, Dad took your line of thought, so my friend ultimately didn’t go through with it.

BUT, I have been his friend since we were teenagers. Got catechized and confirmed as an adult myself. He sometimes taunts me and questions me about being Catholic, but always in a friendly, good-spirited way, and sometimes he has made me think about whether certain activities or lifestyle choices were really consistent with what I’ve professed. There are some things I’ve changed because he made me think about them.

He makes no secret of loving Catholic art, and loves stories about Catholic saints of all varieties. Sometimes I catch him saying things like “I’ll just have to leave it in Jesus’ hands.” Sometimes I quote from Chesterton or somebody like that, about the Church being the vital ingredient in western civilization, and he tends to agree.

It’s something of a point of pride with him to keep up his agnostic stance toward the Church, yet I sense a very slow thaw taking place in this guy. I honestly think one day he’ll admit to himself what’s missing in his life, and return to finish what he started.

And it’s so bloody fascinating to watch this happen!

I think you’re right in your assertions, Red Baron.

 

[Cat]

I suggest that the OP doesn’t know or understand teenagers.

Teenagers do not generally demonstrate their feelings and convictions in their countenance. That wouldn’t be cool. That’s not the way teenagers operate. Instead, many of them appear nonchalant or even totally disconnected when, in reality, they are extremely moved and convicted in their souls.

I agree with those who say “stop judging.” How can anyone possibly say who comes to Mass regularly and who doesn’t unless they personally know each of these people and keep tabs on their activities? We have over 7000 people in our parishes, and nine Masses on weekends. I don’t attend all of those Masses, which are generally pretty crowded, so I can’t possibly say who is missing every week.

And as someone else pointed out, many people attend Confirmations who are members of other parishes or attend Mass at other parishes.

AND many of the family members may well be Protestant, and ignorant of the customs of the Catholic Church. I agree that they should be instructed before walking through the doors of the church, but in reality, it’s awkward and in some cases, impossible, for a daughter to “instruct” her parents, or a son to “instruct” his brothers, or heaven forbid, for an “ex” to instruct his/her “ex.” It feels condescending and patronizing. Many family members would conclude that the Catholic family member is “holier than thou.” In many families, an attempt by the Catholic to “instruct” the rest of the family would result in bitter feelings, arguments, and possibly permanent estrangement from each other. It’s really a shame that American families are so fragile nowadays, but they are. It’s just the way things are in the U.S. right now. Families fall apart so easily. Keeping family peace is important. Many Catholics have left the Church when the Church gets between them and their families. Again, that’s wrong, but it’s the way things are. We need to support families and do all that we can to help them stay intact and help them to learn that the Catholic Church is where they should be.

And what is wrong with displaying JOY?! During Confirmation, the Holy Spirit is present in those who are confirmed. It is a joyous time for all, especially parents who have gotten their children to that point.

I can tell you now that in this day and age, tragically, there are many many families whose children reject the Church entirely and never make it to Confirmation. Who can blame parents and other family members for feeling pure joy that their child at least made it this far in the Church? Many other families are grieving on Confirmation Day that their children are outside the Church and totally opposed to any religion.

Here’s a suggestion–whenever you are irritated by noisy, rambunctious people during the Confirmation Mass, say a prayer for someone whose child is NOT there because they have rejected the Church and Jesus Christ.

Those who wish to pray in Mass should learn to pray regardless of all the external distractions. I’ve used Saint Maximillian Kolbe as an example; surely Auschwitz was not quiet and the people were not reverent, but he prayed anyway. It is possible to learn to do this. I consider myself a puny Catholic compared to some, but I am able to retreat inside myself, find the “quiet place,” and pray when in the midst of noise, music, ribaldry, and confusion. If I can do it, surely those of you who are faithful, reverent Catholics can do it.