Fed up with phony confirmations

[NewEnglandPriest]

The slaves of the householder came to him and said, “Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?”
He answered, “An enemy has done this.”
His slaves said to him, “Do you want us to go and pull them up?”
He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest…"

 

[puzzleannie]

I They all bring a vast array of family and friends many of whom exhibit little knowledge or respect for the church or its liturgy. The vast majority of all these people go up for the sacrament. Who are all these people?

Meanwhile the true Catholics who attend week in and week out with a reverent heart and spirit are distracted from their worship and the sacredness of the mass is spoiled by this great influx. .

my career is helping parents and catechists prepare the “little dears” for confirmation and first communion, and what causes me the most distaste because of the complete ignorance of the gospel, Mass and sacraments displayed by the “true Catholics” is this attitude.

 

[Tietjen]

The slaves of the householder came to him and said, “Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?”
He answered, “An enemy has done this.”
His slaves said to him, “Do you want us to go and pull them up?”
He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest…"

Exactly right and then who will do the harvesting? God, not the wheat.

 

[Tietjen]

That is not part of the sacrament and what Joannm suggests is by far the older tradition. Why should we withhold graces from our children for 12-16 years?

Our children are given the grace they need at baptism. At confirmation they themselves affirm their belief in the Catholic Church and gain additional graces needed to carry them through the remainder of their lives. I wonder… why didn’t Christ send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles on the same day in which He met them??? Maybe because He hadn’t finished instructing them? Maybe?

 

[ProVobis]

As for my confirmation? It was also something to do because it was something that’s supposed to be done. To this day the only thing I remember is my confirmation name and the flowered dress I wore. I don’t even remember taking classes to learn what confirmation was for!

That sort of defeats the purpose of confirmation, doesn’t it?

 

[Loboto-Me]

Ah but did it really??

What of the graces I received at my “forgotten” confirmation? It wasn’t like I was just a young child either, I was 14 at the time.
I think that this actually falls in with the graces received at infant baptism. Whether we know it or not, we are given real graces when we receive them.
I was definitely confirmed but didn’t really know what I was confirming at 14 it only means that my confirmation “took” 26 or so years later.
Should we deny the grace I received in this Sacrament? I don’t think so.

 

[ProVobis]

The vast majority of all these people go up for the sacrament. Who are all these people?

Maybe those who see the sacrament desacralized as in pro-choice politicians receiving on youtube or the secular news? Or maybe after they saw Bill Clinton being given communion on TV or on popular websites? Or maybe they see their cohabitating or gossiping friends receiving? If they do it, shouldn’t everyone else go too?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

This is why when i teach my kids at the church before Comfirmation I make it clear that its thier choice. Baptism and First Eucharist happen when your pretty much to young to make a descision. Confirmation is your choice about whether you are gonna stick with it or not. Its about being honest to yourself. You can always come back and do it later if you change your mind but I make it clear if you dont believe in the Church you should not be confirmed.

Am I wrong to do that?

Confirmation is not a “coming of age” ceremony or a “now you get to choose for yourself” ceremony.

An unconfirmed child/teen/adult is still Catholic by virtue of their baptism. If a teenager chooses not to be confirmed they are not suddenly ejected from the Church. They simply have not completed their sacraments of initiation. They’re still Catholic and still bound to the Church.

If I were in charge of things I would confirm 7-year-olds at the same Mass where they receive First Communion. That’s in accord with current canon law. If I really had my way I would combine baptism and confirmation so that babies received both sacraments at the same time as do our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters.

 

[ProVobis]

I think that this actually falls in with the graces received at infant baptism. Whether we know it or not, we are given real graces when we receive them.

Sure you receive graces. But isn’t the amount determined by a lot of factors? I don’t know the theological implications of said grace beyond catechism so maybe someone can fill us in here.

 

[Julianna]

I would be careful with this. The Catholic Church is not exclusive. Who is to say that someone (a lukeware Catholic, say) might not be moved while attending mass after a long absence (one of those “unfaithful” folks you refer to) to get back to the sacracments and the regular attendance at mass. Who are we to decide how the Holy Spirit works?

The unfaithful should not be there? And who is to decide who the “unfaithful” are? Do you have a window into their souls? No, you don’t, so you would do better to concentrate on yourself. Remove the plank in your eye, before the splinter in someone else’s.

Ishii

 

[teachccd]

Good point.

Thank you… I thought so…

 

[Joannm]

Are you speaking this Ex Cathedral? If not, you’ll pardon me if I look to the Church for decisions concerning Catholic teaching.

I am offering my opinion on the age of confirmation based on what what done in the early Church. There is no official age for confirmation. The conferences of bishops an decide, in fact even ordinaries can decide. In our diocese it is usually sometime between 13-15. In a neighboring diocese it is high school age. I made my confirmation at age 10, one of my friends made hers at 8.

 

[Joannm]

Our children are given the grace they need at baptism. At confirmation they themselves affirm their belief in the Catholic Church and gain additional graces needed to carry them through the remainder of their lives. I wonder… why didn’t Christ send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles on the same day in which He met them??? Maybe because He hadn’t finished instructing them? Maybe?

Christ didn’t send the HOly Spirit when he first met them because he had to die before sending the Spirit.

 

[CDNowak]

Our children are given the grace they need at baptism. At confirmation they themselves affirm their belief in the Catholic Church and gain additional graces needed to carry them through the remainder of their lives. I wonder… why didn’t Christ send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles on the same day in which He met them??? Maybe because He hadn’t finished instructing them? Maybe?

The affirmation of belief is not a part of the Sacrament of Confirmation by its nature (otherwise the Confirmation of infants in the majority of Catholic Churches would be invalid). By delaying the Sacrament as is common practice, we make it necessary that the Confirmandi are able to give informed consent.

It is a historical anomaly that we allow non-Confirmed to approach the altar for Communion, this has only been allowed in the West, as an exception starting in the 1930’s. Not until later in the century was it normal to have Confirmation follow Communion (and even then 4th grade seemed to develop as the custom through the 1960’s). Only since 1983 and the new code of Canon Law has the creeping age of Confirmation reached the absurd point where people wonder if 14 or even 18 is too young. The creeping age distorted the understanding of the Sacrament into that of a “Catholic Bar/Bat Mitzvahs”. The Sacraments are not rights of passage, and this notion leads to other problems (ie people “graduating” from Church).

The graces of Confirmation are to aid us in perseverance in the Truth and against sin. At the latest these should be received when the capacity for mortal sin exists, that is the age of reason. As of that point, baptized Catholics are bound to the life of the Church, again why deny them the graces given through the Sacraments to fulfill their obligations?

 

[Julianna]

Maybe those who see the sacrament desacralized as in pro-choice politicians receiving on youtube or the secular news? Or maybe after they saw Bill Clinton being given communion on TV or on popular websites? Or maybe they see their cohabitating or gossiping friends receiving? If they do it, shouldn’t everyone else go too?

I had no idea Bill Clinton is a Catholic! Did I miss the memo?

Nancy Pelosi, The Kennedy’s and Joe Biden are politicians who “represent” all the people in their district, communities and voting area…not all of their constinuents are Catholic, nor should they be. Welcome to America.

“From many, one”

and for you Latin folks

“e pluribus unum”

 

[Loboto-Me]

The affirmation of belief is not a part of the Sacrament of Confirmation by its nature (otherwise the Confirmation of infants in the majority of Catholic Churches would be invalid). By delaying the Sacrament as is common practice, we make it necessary that the Confirmandi are able to give informed consent.

It is a historical anomaly that we allow non-Confirmed to approach the altar for Communion, this has only been allowed in the West, as an exception starting in the 1930’s. Not until later in the century was it normal to have Confirmation follow Communion (and even then 4th grade seemed to develop as the custom through the 1960’s). Only since 1983 and the new code of Canon Law has the creeping age of Confirmation reached the absurd point where people wonder if 14 or even 18 is too young. The creeping age distorted the understanding of the Sacrament into that of a “Catholic Bar/Bat Mitzvahs”. The Sacraments are not rights of passage, and this notion leads to other problems (ie people “graduating” from Church).

The graces of Confirmation are to aid us in perseverance in the Truth and against sin. At the latest these should be received when the capacity for mortal sin exists, that is the age of reason. As of that point, baptized Catholics are bound to the life of the Church, again why deny them the graces given through the Sacraments to fulfill their obligations?

Thank you for validating my Confirmation
I really do feel that the graces given to me, even if I wasn’t paying attention at the time, did really kick in later on in my life. I was gifted with a sensation God, and right and wrong, even as a very small child, the Sacraments and their effects, I feel, is what helped me “grow” that sensation at different points in my life, until I fully accepted these graces.

 

[ProVobis]

I had no idea Bill Clinton is a Catholic! Did I miss the memo?

traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A056rcClintonCommunion.htm

Actually, non-Catholics aren’t always disqualified from receiving communion at a Catholic Church:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/intercommunion.htm

Under what conditions, therefore, may non-Catholics from the Reformation churches receive? Paragraph 4 addresses this matter and sets stricter conditions than for non-Catholics who belong to Churches which have a valid Eucharist, true Eucharistic faith and valid Penance. These conditions are:
a. danger of death, or, other grave necessity,
b. the norms of the diocesan bishop, or, the conference of bishops are
complied with
c. cannot approach a minister of his or her own community
d. asks on his or her own for it,
e. manifests Catholic faith in the sacraments
f. properly disposed.

These last two conditions are very important. When Catholics and Orthodox present themselves for Communion, either to their own minister or that of another Church with valid sacraments, Eucharistic faith and proper disposition is assumed, given the introduction to both Penance and the Eucharist at an early age in Churches which have a Catholic Eucharistic faith. However, when a non-Catholic presents himself the norms presume an investigation to determine the person’s faith, and to determine the necessary moral conditions for a proper reception of the Eucharist. That all these conditions are met, especially the last two, cannot be determined by a minister of Communion, ordinary or extraordinary, in the Communion line. This is why the USCCB guidelines, which are published in the back of every missalette, exclude weddings, funerals and other such occasions as appropriate for intercommunion. The occasions would be individual, normally determined by a pastor after consultation with the bishop, or, in accordance with norms drawn up on the basis of this canon (paragraph 5).

 

[ProVobis]

By delaying the Sacrament as is common practice, we make it necessary that the Confirmandi are able to give informed consent.

And the problem with that is what?

And for what it’s worth, I’m told in some Protestant circles, they don’t baptize unless much stricter rules are enforced.

 

[archangel04]

You have every right to be frustrated, too bad that many people will judge you as being to harsh. When I say something about ideas on how we can improve sacredness in the mass, I get shundown at my parish and my parents. They think I am too harsh and not charitable. I am being harsh for trying to help people reach salvation? I am being to harsh for asking that we have respect during the moment that we experience heaven on earth?
We as Catholics have bent over for the world, and instead of getting more converts and respect, we are laughed at by the world and seen as a joke. Let us hope and pray that the tide is turning to the right direction and we hold our Faith as something serious and real.

This is why when i teach my kids at the church before Comfirmation I make it clear that its thier choice. Baptism and First Eucharist happen when your pretty much to young to make a descision. Confirmation is your choice about whether you are gonna stick with it or not. Its about being honest to yourself. You can always come back and do it later if you change your mind but I make it clear if you dont believe in the Church you should not be confirmed.

Am I wrong to do that?

Not at all! I also do this, in facy I’ve asked kids to raise their hands if they were forced to attend confirmation class. Those that raise their hands I applaud them and ask to them to tell their parents why they do not wish to attend classed. I say to them if they are still force to come to the class, the I ask them to open their hearts to Jesus and pray for conversion.

 

[CDNowak]

And the problem with that is what?

And for what it’s worth, I’m told in some Protestant circles, they don’t baptize unless much stricter rules are enforced.

Nothing wrong with informed consent, the problem is habitually withholding the Sacrament. Ultimately this has led (as is apparent from this thread, and the dozen others I have participated on/around the topic in the past few months) to the notion that consent is necessary for the Sacrament of Confirmation, a measure which is not part of the nature of the Sacrament, but a recent human custom that flies in the face of Sacramental theology.

FWIW, I know many (or rather, most) of those same Protestants deny the Sacramental efficiency of Baptism, in their minds it is merely a sign of their commitment to Jesus (the baptism of John, as it were).