Fed up with phony confirmations

[Cat]

All you are doing is confirming my claim that confirmation ceremonies are a cacophony of noise, music, ribaldry and confusion. You however seem to be excusing this and that the holy, faithful and reverent catholic needs to just put up with it. I am almost speechless. Utterly speechless.
…
But not for long. All this confirms is that holy, faithful, reverent Catholics are second class citizens in their own parishes. They are expected to put up with every kind of indecency and insult to themselves, the Holy Spirit in the confirmation ceremony and Jesus in the blessed sacrament. Should Jesus and the Holy Spirit also just retreat into themselves? Is that what you all want? No. You want Jesus and the Holy Spirit to come out and enter into us. If that’s what you want then you better join me and start working to drive out the ribaldry and confusion from the sacred sanctuary.

I am not excusing anything. I wasn’t even talking about Confirmation Masses, but any noisy and cacaphonic life situation.

As for faithful Catholics just putting up with noise in the Mass, well, what exactly do you suggest? What is your action plan to “drive out the ribaldry and confusion from the sacred sanctuary?” Are you considering standing up before the Mass begins and loudly requesting everyone to please be quiet? Hopefully you are not planning on driving noisy people out with a whip. Personally, I find both of these ideas unacceptable in this day and age. I can accept the first plan (telling people to be quiet) if the admonition comes from a priest, deacon, or another person in the parish with authority (e.g., music director, liturgical director, etc.)

Putting signs up that say “Quiet in the nave, please” would make sense–do you think it would make a difference where you are? I personally think many of the people, including the Catholics, wouldn’t know what the “nave” is. Like you, they would call it the “sanctuary.”

My suggestion to you is to learn to live in the real world. If there is anything you can do to make things better, then by all means do it. But if there is nothing you can do, then yes, learn to put up with it. What is the alternative? The alternative is to be desperately miserable and live in a state of permanent resentment towards others. Is that how you want to live?

Read the biography of St. Teresa of Avila (TAN publishes a really good bio). She had to put up with so much abuse and shocking deficiencies in the Church, but she was always cheerful and loving and optimistic.

And please don’t make judgements about the Confirmation Masses in my parish unless you attend my parish and know how things are. I am blessed to live in a diocese where the Masses are reverent, praise God.

BTW, I disagree with you when you describe the noisy, thoughtless Christians as “apostate.” If you read my post earlier, I discusseddid St. Paul’s message in I Corinthians 3, where he describes “carnal” or “fleshly” Christians. These people, according to St. Paul, are not apostate, but merely immature, babes in Christ.

There is a huge difference between “apostate” and “carnal,” and I suggest that you study I Corinthians 3, 4, and 5 and attempt to understand that we should not deal with immature (carnal) Christians the same way we deal with apostate Christians. You are expressing some very negative feelings towards Christian babies, and that’s not right. Try to understand–they’re babies, immature, carnal, fleshly. They don’t know any better and they have to be fed with milk so that they will grow up. They shouldn’t be treated harshly by those who are mature.

 

[excubitor]

It breaks my heart to see the attitude of the OP and those who agree with her. Goodness folks, isn’t this whole thing actually between those being confirmed, the priest, and God?

I am a he not a she.
It breaks my heart to see so many catholics with almost a complete lack of discernment. Priests do not always get things right, neither do bishops. Sometimes they need us layman to point out their failings. I do this with the greatest fear and reverence. It is my deepest wish that Bishops exercise their ecclesiastical authority instead of continually giving in to every kind of imaginable abuse which happens throughout our corrupted fellowships. Where are the men of God to stand up for holiness and eject the sinners from the house of God?

The status of these folks isn’t even our business. It isn’t up to any of us to keep tabs on when someone attends Mass or doesn’t attend Mass. It isn’t up to us to determine anyone’s relationship with God. In fact, it’s terribly wrong to even verbally critise these dear children, parents, and guests even if the thought runs through our mind. If we are concentrating on our own worship, relationship with Christ, and our heart during the eucharist, how is it even possible we have time to look and judge others in that one short hour?

We’ve also seen clown masses. Should I say that the clown priest actions are nothing to do with me that they are between me and God and that I shouldn’t be judging. I don’t want to judge, but if the priests and bishops are not going to exercise any discernment then it is left to me to create a stink about it. Should the Lord be affronted by allowing the great unwashed parade through the church?

Remember that this is exactly what Jesus’ issue was with the religious leaders; they judged the holiness, intentions, and commitment of others and expressed a desire for those of offended them to act more like they do – holy and religious. Jesus’ response was not that they were right; rather He condemned them for their attitude and lack of charity toward others. Jesus saw that these dear nonreligious folks just didn’t 100% ‘get it’ yet – BUT that one day they may. More importantly, how they were treated and encouraged today held the key for that day to come!

Jesus also raged through the courts of the temple and overturned the tables and whipped the moneychangers out of the temple and that was just the outer courts. Not the inner sanctum of the Holy of Holies. Maybe I should do this to protect the Lord from being affronted right there in the inner sanctum of the sanctuary.

In the temple in Jerusalem there was a court for the gentiles. Where they could come to hear the law being read and explained. But they were not allowed to come into the inner courts where the people of Israel were. The gentiles had to go through ritual cleansing and circumcision before they could be considered Jews. Non-practicing Catholics are basically unclean apostates and should be counted amongst the heathen. They need to be purified again in the court of the gentiles before they can be admitted back into court of the Jews. In those days only the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies once per year on the day of atonement. If he were to go in on any other day he would have been struck down dead. With Christianity the veil was torn and all Christians could enter into the Holy of Holies, which we do each week when we go to the mass. But our masses are more like family reunions. Now the pagans are not just in the outer courts, they are right there in the Holy of Holies with everybody else. The tearing of the veil was not to allow the admission of the entire unwashed pagan world to enter therein. It was to allow pure, washed Christians to enter therein.

Notice this passage from Hebrews 10

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness [2] to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated [3] for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For **if we sin wilfully **after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Better to judge yourself or be judged by excubitor than to be judged by the living God. Sadly the bishops and priests are not judging the people. If the church judged the people they would be spared the horrendous judgements of the living God which one terrible day will come upon the house of God.

 

[ProVobis]

All you are doing is confirming my claim that confirmation ceremonies are a cacophony of noise, music, ribaldry and confusion. You however seem to be excusing this and that the holy, faithful and reverent catholic needs to just put up with it. I am almost speechless. Utterly speechless.
…
But not for long. All this confirms is that holy, faithful, reverent Catholics are second class citizens in their own parishes. They are expected to put up with every kind of indecency and insult to themselves, the Holy Spirit in the confirmation ceremony and Jesus in the blessed sacrament. Should Jesus and the Holy Spirit also just retreat into themselves? Is that what you all want? No. You want Jesus and the Holy Spirit to come out and enter into us. If that’s what you want then you better join me and start working to drive out the ribaldry and confusion from the sacred sanctuary.

Let me go on record to support your position. I believe if no one does this and everyone defends the status quo, then the behavior will continue unabated. Unfortunately the problem can’t be snipped in the bud but it still needs to be done. As Fr Z always suggests, one brick at a time.

 

[excubitor]

also

As has been said many times already in this thread, Confirmation is a Sacrament. As such it confers graces upon the one being Confirmed. Even if at the time they are not as knowledgeable about their faith as they should be. I firmly believe that due to the fact that I was Baptized, received First Communion, and was Confirmed I was bestowed with countless graces (as are all who receive them). And though I went through a period in my life when I strayed from the Church (mainly due to ignorance) I eventually was drawn back (seemingly despite all of my initial efforts to resist being pulled in that particular direction). I am convinced that it was God who brought me back despite myself, and I am just as convinced that the graces I received early in life through these Sacraments greatly aided in my returning to the faith in ways I cannot begin to imagine.

So as the Lord said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs.” - Matthew 19.14

I think this comment is more appropriate for baptisms but the principle I am putting forward for baptism is the same. Apostate catholics bringing in their children for baptism, vowing to nurture them in the faith and then never setting foot in the door since. I have friends who did this. They have suffered terribly with the women in severe depression and mental disorder. I attribute this to their mispoken vows. We are not doing any favours giving holy things to apostate catholics. All we are doing is piling condemnation upon them when they true to form break vow after vow.

 

[excubitor]

As for faithful Catholics just putting up with noise in the Mass, well, what exactly do you suggest? What is your action plan to “drive out the ribaldry and confusion from the sacred sanctuary?” Are you considering standing up before the Mass begins and loudly requesting everyone to please be quiet? Hopefully you are not planning on driving noisy people out with a whip. Personally, I find both of these ideas unacceptable in this day and age. I can accept the first plan (telling people to be quiet) if the admonition comes from a priest, deacon, or another person in the parish with authority (e.g., music director, liturgical director, etc.)

Maybe if Catholics did this the priests would think twice before letting these sham events continue just to “keep the peace”. Sadly I lack the courage of our Lord. I know that I would be the one who would be thrown out of the church. But I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to behave like that in the sanctuary of the church. Two wrongs do not make a right. Protests belong outside the sanctuary. I feel that letters to bishops are appropriate and complaints to the priest. I seem to remember reading once that in the mediaeval church there was an actual officer of the church who was basically a guard charged with throwing out unruly people. He had a particular uniform that he used to wear. I could not find the details on this. But really the policy must be set up before the confirmation goes ahead.

Putting signs up that say “Quiet in the nave, please” would make sense–do you think it would make a difference where you are? I personally think many of the people, including the Catholics, wouldn’t know what the “nave” is. Like you, they would call it the “sanctuary.”
My suggestion to you is to learn to live in the real world.

Why would you put up a sign that nobody understands if you are living in the real world?

If there is anything you can do to make things better, then by all means do it. But if there is nothing you can do, then yes, learn to put up with it. What is the alternative? The alternative is to be desperately miserable and live in a state of permanent resentment towards others. Is that how you want to live?

There is something I can do. Write on this forum and condemn a seriously bad practice. Write to bishops and complain at this abuse of the sacraments. Does this mean that I am the person at mass who is desperately miserable and scowling at people in a state of permanent resentment. I am most certainly not. I will not allow others to rob me of my joy in the sacraments. Therefore I am the one kneeling head bowed, struggling to turn my distracted brain into an attitude of prayer. I smile at people during the sign of peace. So you are completely misrepresenting me.

Read the biography of St. Teresa of Avila (TAN publishes a really good bio). She had to put up with so much abuse and shocking deficiencies in the Church, but she was always cheerful and loving and optimistic.

There is also the example of Jesus Christ who said “Blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted”. There is our Lady of Fatima who with tears lamented at the indifferences and outrages in the world, and that was 80 years ago. Things are far worse today.

And please don’t make judgements about the Confirmation Masses in my parish unless you attend my parish and know how things are. I am blessed to live in a diocese where the Masses are reverent, praise God.

Since when was I judging every parish. I was not. But it is a distinct problem in my parish and I have every reason to believe that it is a common problem throughout America and the western world.

BTW, I disagree with you when you describe the noisy, thoughtless Christians as “apostate.” If you read my post earlier, I discusseddid St. Paul’s message in I Corinthians 3, where he describes “carnal” or “fleshly” Christians. These people, according to St. Paul, are not apostate, but merely immature, babes in Christ.

I’m not talking about people in Corinth in the first century. They were not apostates because they attended mass every week. An immature Christian is not an apostate. Where did I say that? I am talking about apostate catholics who have not attended church for years.

There is a huge difference between “apostate” and “carnal,” and I suggest that you study I Corinthians 3, 4, and 5 and attempt to understand that we should not deal with immature (carnal) Christians the same way we deal with apostate Christians. You are expressing some very negative feelings towards Christian babies, and that’s not right. Try to understand–they’re babies, immature, carnal, fleshly. They don’t know any better and they have to be fed with milk so that they will grow up. They shouldn’t be treated harshly by those who are mature.

Again, I am not talking about carnal Christians who go to church each week and struggle with their carnality. I am talking about APOSTATE christians. APOSTATES who have not been to church for years getting their children confirmed and inviting all their APOSTATE family and friends to the service. Not only apostate Catholics but also heretics and schismatics from other religions, and even unbelievers from the surrounding pagan world.

 

[countertenor]

Semantics

It’s not semantics. In the sacrament of confirmation (or chrismation as we easterners call it) one is sealed with the Holy Spirit. It has nothing whatsoever to do with your personal choice. The bishop or priest confers the sacrament on the person, not the person on themselves.

 

[karennascargo3]

I am a he not a she.

My apology; I didn’t know.

excubitor:

Jesus also raged through the courts of the temple and overturned the tables and whipped the moneychangers out of the temple and that was just the outer courts. Not the inner sanctum of the Holy of Holies. Maybe I should do this to protect the Lord from being affronted right there in the inner sanctum of the sanctuary.

Jesus did this because they were selling sacrifices for profit; not because they wished to attend temple.

excubitor:

In the temple in Jerusalem there was a court for the gentiles. Where they could come to hear the law being read and explained. But they were not allowed to come into the inner courts where the people of Israel were. The gentiles had to go through ritual cleansing and circumcision before they could be considered Jews. Non-practicing Catholics are basically unclean apostates and should be counted amongst the heathen. They need to be purified again in the court of the gentiles before they can be admitted back into court of the Jews. In those days only the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies once per year on the day of atonement. If he were to go in on any other day he would have been struck down dead. With Christianity the veil was torn and all Christians could enter into the Holy of Holies, which we do each week when we go to the mass. But our masses are more like family reunions. Now the pagans are not just in the outer courts, they are right there in the Holy of Holies with everybody else. The tearing of the veil was not to allow the admission of the entire unwashed pagan world to enter therein. It was to allow pure, washed Christians to enter therein.

Show that in Catholic doctrine! ALL are welcome (regardless of belief) and no one is above another, nor more valuable than any one else. You are no more valuable before God because you are a Catholic than a non-Catholic. All are loved equally by God and Christ. In fact, Christ even died for those pagans!

excubitor:

Better to judge yourself or be judged by excubitor than to be judged by the living God.

Holy cow! That is the most troubling statement I think I have ever seen. The fact that you think you are worthy enough to judge others! Go figure…:crying:

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m not in the process of judging anyone. That is the priests job when people front up asking for sacraments. However I am making a general observation.

your observation in OP included a condemnation of people, Catholic or not, who come to church for these occasions disrupting the worship of “real” Catholics. That is the comment I object to so strongly. If anyone wishes to reintroduce the topic of age for confirmation or for adequate preparation for confirmation, I will contribute, but your sidebars derailed those discussions from the get go. If the parish does not view the reception of sacraments as among other things and evangelization moment you are way, way off track. I think just about everyone here needs Nature of the Sacrament 101 on Confirmation as well.

 

[jtodisco]

Never have I come into contact with such extreme pharisaical hate as I have on some of the threads on C.A.F. I still think C.A.F. has much to offer (which is why I still read through various threads and post on them from time to time) but it is also quite distressing to read such venemous statements coming from people who profess to be devoutly Catholic.

I have seen little more than hateful condemnation come from Excubitor since this thread began. I sincerely hope he is not a member of my parish, and I fear for those who have to sit in the pews next to him. Clearly he spends much time stewing over the preceived insults and offenses of others to such an extent that he is blinded by rage against these “apostates”.

Excubitor I think it may be good for you to discuss these issues you’re having with your priest. It may be good for you to hear what he has to say about this since he is the one performing these “phony” ceremonies. If your view of the matter was the correct one, then the Church would likely have reached the same conclusions you have long before this thread was ever posted.

Also, I would like to remind that:

“He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling. But he who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.” - 1 John 2.9-11

and

“If anyone says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.” - 1 John 4.20-21

 

[Newbie2]

I suggest that the OP doesn’t know or understand teenagers.

I would agree.

Sometimes, we have good reasons for judging.

No, we never have good reasons for judging. We may have good reasons for discerning, though. Subtle, maybe, but there is a difference.

If I treasure the sacraments like fine gold and tremble when I make my vows then how is it possible for me to not grieve when I see people disrespecting them and treating them as light matters.

But then what do you do with that grief? Turn it on those who you see as disrespectful or use it to pray for their further conversion?

This whold thread is really a discussion on “impious” Catholics. The OP could have substituted weddings, first communions, Creasters, etc. and made the same arguement.

I think that the answer is to look at ourselves and how we respond to those whom we percieve as less pious than they ought to be (whether it is only our perception of them or if they are objectively impious and lack the respect our Lord deserves).

Do we pray for these folks? Daily?

Do we participate in CCD and/or RCIA and/or other religious education in our parish? If not, I would suggest that such criticism of these folks is nothing more than theological armchair quarterbacking.

In other words, are we just complaining about the situation or doing something about it?

 

[CDNowak]

But where is the motivation to study catechism after Confirmation? How do the Easterners do it? We can’t assume et ceteribus paribus here so what applies to them should apply to Westerners.

If the motivation is to reach Confirmation, and then all study of the faith ceases what is the point? They become the practical apostates that the OP is speaking of.

Eastern Catholics, AFAIK, tend to have Sunday School RE before or after Divine Liturgy. They go without treating the sacrament as a diploma.

 

[Zatzat]

Do you suppose the Church is silent on the issue due to simple economics? Perhaps if the Church made an issue of it, there’d be less money in the collection basket and for Church / hall rentals.

Christmas, Easter, Baptisms, confirmations, weddings and funerals bring in a loads of casual Catholics and I have no reason not to think, loads of cash.

Be it cash for hall rentals, Church services, collection basket or generous tips to the Priest. That’s money the Church certainly must appreciate and would most likely miss should the well dry up.

Yes?

 

[puzzleannie]

Do you suppose the Church is silent on the issue due to simple economics? Perhaps if the Church made an issue of it, there’d be less money in the collection basket and for Church / hall rentals.

Christmas, Easter, Baptisms, confirmations, weddings and funerals bring in a loads of casual Catholics and I have no reason not to think, loads of green.

of all the ill-informed (most charitable word I can come up with at the moment) comments on the thread, this takes the cake. No the Church is not in it for the money. My budget for sacramental preparation for the relatively few dwarfs the budget for all CCD, RE and adult evangelization of hundreds. The Church does NOT charge for sacraments. In fact, voluntary fees for books and supplies cover only a fraction of the real cost incurred by the parish for this service, through which we try to fully prepare our candidates. OP would do well to ask what his parish his doing, since he is so unhappy with what he is seeing, and most of all, how he personally can help. The extra collection money at times of the year when sacraments are celebrated does not even make a blip on the radar screen, and hall rentals barely cover expenses in most parishes. Since you are obviously completely uninvolved in the reality of life in your parish, I suggest you change that and view this as your opportunity to get a clue.

 

[Zatzat]

of all the ill-informed (most charitable word I can come up with at the moment) comments on the thread, this takes the cake. No the Church is not in it for the money. My budget for sacramental preparation for the relatively few dwarfs the budget for all CCD, RE and adult evangelization of hundreds. The Church does NOT charge for sacraments. In fact, voluntary fees for books and supplies cover only a fraction of the real cost incurred by the parish for this service, through which we try to fully prepare our candidates. OP would do well to ask what his parish his doing, since he is so unhappy with what he is seeing, and most of all, how he personally can help. The extra collection money at times of the year when sacraments are celebrated does not even make a blip on the radar screen, and hall rentals barely cover expenses in most parishes. Since you are obviously completely uninvolved in the reality of life in your parish, I suggest you change that and view this as your opportunity to get a clue.

My wife gives the Priest $100 cash each time one of our children are baptized.

I don’t think my wife is the only Catholic on earth who tips generously.

 

[Newbie2]

Do you suppose the Church is silent on the issue due to simple economics? Perhaps if the Church made an issue of it, there’d be less money in the collection basket and for Church / hall rentals.

Christmas, Easter, Baptisms, confirmations, weddings and funerals bring in a loads of casual Catholics and I have no reason not to think, loads of cash.

Be it cash for hall rentals, Church services, collection basket or generous tips to the Priest. That’s money the Church certainly must appreciate and would most likely miss should the well dry up.

Yes?

No.

At least not in a general sense. I’m sure there are, here and there, concerns about money.

“Loads of cash” LOL Do you think parishes get “loads of cash” from such “events”? My guess is that you’ve never sat in on a parish council meeting or Stewardship committee meeting.

Generous tips to the priest? lol Do you have any idea of how little priests make? These aren’t “Mega-churches” we’re talking about here.

But do you honestly think money is a motivation for the Sacraments?

 

[Zatzat]

But do you honestly think money is a motivation for the Sacraments?

Not so much for the sacraments. Easter and Christmas, the once a year Catholics…yes.

 

[ProVobis]

your observation in OP included a condemnation of people, Catholic or not, who come to church for these occasions disrupting the worship of “real” Catholics.

Judging crowds or groups of people isn’t necessarily the same as judging individuals. If there’s a problem, it’s one of stereotyping, which is more often wrong than right.

 

[ProVobis]

If the motivation is to reach Confirmation, and then all study of the faith ceases what is the point? They become the practical apostates that the OP is speaking of.

Eastern Catholics, AFAIK, tend to have Sunday School RE before or after Divine Liturgy. They go without treating the sacrament as a diploma.

So the culture has more to do with it than the whether one should be confirmed at age 1, age 10, or age 50?

Then I agree.

 

[CDNowak]

Not only replying to quoted poster, just the most obvious example of what I’m referring to.

Never have I come into contact with such extreme pharisaical hate as I have on some of the threads on C.A.F. I still think C.A.F. has much to offer (which is why I still read through various threads and post on them from time to time) but it is also quite distressing to read such venemous statements coming from people who profess to be devoutly Catholic.

I have seen little more than hateful condemnation come from Excubitor since this thread began. I sincerely hope he is not a member of my parish, and I fear for those who have to sit in the pews next to him. Clearly he spends much time stewing over the preceived insults and offenses of others to such an extent that he is blinded by rage against these “apostates”.

Many of the harsher posts are probably more ‘vent’ posts than anything else. There are many places where issues such as this one could break the faith of those of us who need some measure of order and solemnity in worship. Very rarely are those posting in a position to make a change for the better, and without some outlet they may end up leaving the Church (or at least changing Rites, as I have seen both happen).

Try to keep some charity in mind even for these posters, certainly please extend them the courtesy of withholding judgement that you wish them to show.

 

[CDNowak]

So the culture has more to do with it than the whether one should be confirmed at age 1, age 10, or age 50?

Then I agree.

Not sure exactly what you mean, but the when we receive the Sacraments is important and help shape the culture.