Fed up with phony confirmations

[Cat]

I’m not talking about people in Corinth in the first century. They were not apostates because they attended mass every week. An immature Christian is not an apostate. Where did I say that? I am talking about apostate catholics who have not attended church for years.

Again, I am not talking about carnal Christians who go to church each week and struggle with their carnality. I am talking about APOSTATE christians. APOSTATES who have not been to church for years getting their children confirmed and inviting all their APOSTATE family and friends to the service. Not only apostate Catholics but also heretics and schismatics from other religions, and even unbelievers from the surrounding pagan world.

As I and others have pointed out in this thread, you have no way of knowing if these Christians have been away from Mass for years. They may attend Mass in other parishese besides yours. Unless you know them personally and keep tabs on their life, you cannot make this assessment.

The best place for apostates, heretics, schismatics, and unbelievers from the pagan world is at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, where they can face Jesus Truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament, hear His Word proclaimed, and be with believers who are faithful to the Church.

One might argue that the Mass is not a good place for evangelism; I would argue, “Why not?” The people who were converted by St. Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost were the very people who had stood by and watched as Jesus was crucified. That experience allowed the Holy Spirit to begin to work in their hearts, and when St. Peter gave the sermon and asked them to commit their lives to Jesus, Whom they had crucified, they were ready to say, “Yes.” The same thing could happen and DOES happen at Mass–apostates, pagans, and all the rest observe the Holy Sacrifice and even if they mock at it or ignore it, they go home and think about it, and the Holy Spirit can work in their hearts and make them ready to receive the Word of God at a later time.

 

[Julianna]

I think the concern has been danced around. If you happen have any ethnic background, Italian, Irish, Polish, Hispanic,…back in the day…there was a “big” “party” after the sacraments of Baptism, 1st Holy Communion and Confirmation. (also weddings are a big event).

What has happened in the last 50 yrs…the party is still going on…people are invited, caterers, music, invitations, etc. People come in from out of town (as families these days don’t necessarily live in the same town anymore) and join the family at their parish. One doesn’t know who is who and why should anyone else care.

At my children’s Christenings, my DH and I did not want it during the Mass. Oddly enough we went the “traditional” route, which is a private Christening, like I had, like my DH had, etc. etc. We picked a Saturday, and our family and friends came out. Half of the people there were non Catholics, and Msgr. was wonderful. He explained each part of the Baptism and my non Catholic friends and family appreciated that. I live in the south now, so my friendships are more diverse. (If I still lived up north, I am sure there would be larger group in attendance, and the after party would be bigger.) The after party was not as elaborate as what I had, back in '58, but party we did. I think the focus may have shifted from the celebration of the newly Baptized, Communion, Confirmation…to the party. If you have an ethnic background, you know what I mean.

My 1st Holy Communion was on a Saturday in 1966, we filed in two by two by height. It was scheduled as a “separate” event. So in both of the scenarios, we didn’t have the general Mass goers present. Now it is done during Mass. My daughter had 3 others, and she wore the same dress I wore when I made my Communion. For me, I like the set a side day, like I had it…but that is just me.

Confirmation was the same. A date set aside, and the only people there were the candidates, their sponsors, friends and family.

On the set a side days, you aren’t going to have the arm chair quarterbacks or the back seat drivers commenting on what is going on. Nor should there be comments in the first place about guests coming to the Church. Having it separate alleviated all that fol-de-rol.

 

[turtle18]

I am a religion teacher and it makes me very sad to see how a lot of Catholics, in my opinion, the vast majority of them, don’t take their religion seriously. We had First Communion in our parish and the very next week, I’d say only about 25% of the First Communion participants showed up to the next Sunday Mass. Of course, that is the parent’s decision–but really why did they make such a big deal over their child’s First Communion and then not bring them back the next week? If you truly believed in the Eucharist, wouldn’t you want your child to receive the Eucharist as much as possible?

Not to mention most of the kids’ First Reconciliation is their last reconciliation.

You wouldn’t believe the fight that broke out between some of the parents at First Communion. And of course the parents who started the fight are no where to be seen on any other Sundays. But they had to have their front row seat to see their little baby make First Communion. It is really, really sad.

I wonder how much of it is the American mindset, the entitlement mentality? Materialism clouds everything, I think in America.

 

[Phemie]

Not so much for the sacraments. Easter and Christmas, the once a year Catholics…yes.

The Christmas collection in our parish, while probably close to triple what we normally take in, doesn’t make up for the drastic drop in collections that we see from ~ June 15 - Sept. 15 each year. People seem to forget that our expenses remain the same even though they are on holidays.

 

[Zatzat]

The Christmas collection in our parish, while probably close to triple what we normally take in, doesn’t make up for the drastic drop in collections that we see from ~ June 15 - Sept. 15 each year. People seem to forget that our expenses remain the same even though they are on holidays.

Imagine if those once a year Catholics didn’t show up.

 

[jtodisco]

As I and others have pointed out in this thread, you have no way of knowing if these Christians have been away from Mass for years. They may attend Mass in other parishese besides yours. Unless you know them personally and keep tabs on their life, you cannot make this assessment.

The best place for apostates, heretics, schismatics, and unbelievers from the pagan world is at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, where they can face Jesus Truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament, hear His Word proclaimed, and be with believers who are faithful to the Church.

One might argue that the Mass is not a good place for evangelism; I would argue, “Why not?” The people who were converted by St. Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost were the very people who had stood by and watched as Jesus was crucified. That experience allowed the Holy Spirit to begin to work in their hearts, and when St. Peter gave the sermon and asked them to commit their lives to Jesus, Whom they had crucified, they were ready to say, “Yes.” The same thing could happen and DOES happen at Mass–apostates, pagans, and all the rest observe the Holy Sacrifice and even if they mock at it or ignore it, they go home and think about it, and the Holy Spirit can work in their hearts and make them ready to receive the Word of God at a later time.

 

[Phemie]

I am a religion teacher and it makes me very sad to see how a lot of Catholics, in my opinion, the vast majority of them, don’t take their religion seriously. We had First Communion in our parish and the very next week, I’d say only about 25% of the First Communion participants showed up to the next Sunday Mass. Of course, that is the parent’s decision–but really why did they make such a big deal over their child’s First Communion and then not bring them back the next week? If you truly believed in the Eucharist, wouldn’t you want your child to receive the Eucharist as much as possible?

Not to mention most of the kids’ First Reconciliation is their last reconciliation.

You wouldn’t believe the fight that broke out between some of the parents at First Communion. And of course the parents who started the fight are no where to be seen on any other Sundays. But they had to have their front row seat to see their little baby make First Communion. It is really, really sad.

I wonder how much of it is the American mindset, the entitlement mentality? Materialism clouds everything, I think in America.

I think a lot of it has to do with the schools usurping the parents’ job as primary catechists. For decades it was understood that everyone in grade 2 would go to Confession for the first time and then receive Communion. That made it a cultural rite of passage as much as a sacrament and for many the desire for this rite of passage is still strong while the importance of the sacrament has fallen by the wayside.

In the parish where we lived when DD reached the age of 7, the parents were responsible for teaching their children what they needed to know to receive Communion. And let’s face it, Canon Law says that the children need only know the difference between a consecrated Host and regular bread and be able to receive reverently – the bar is not that high. After the family had completed the process, the child had an interview with the pastor who verified that the child met the requirements. Since it was up to the parents to teach the child, you didn’t get such a sense of entitlement as you get when parents are able to just drop off their little dears and get everything done for them.

 

[Phemie]

Imagine if those once a year Catholics didn’t show up.

It’s not just the ‘once a year’ crowd, it’s also in good measure the visitors (those who are returning to the town to visit their relatives) and those who increase their donation because it’s Christmas.

But we rejoice in the presence of the ‘once a year crowd’ because we never know when something might touch their hearts and return them to the fold. I don’t think any of us look at them with dollar signs in our eyes.

 

[Sarabande]

I think what bothers me most about the original post is the assumption that he/she knows exactly where these other new faces are every Sunday and who they are as people. It’s judging without truly knowing who these people are, what their situations are, etc.

I understand how frustrating and sad it can be when this is observed. I don’t like seeing it either. Recently, I attended a confirmation in which the congregation and guests were so unruly, five times did the priest and another person come out and asked, practically demanded them to remember that we were in a holy place and be quiet and respectful of the Blessed Sacrament. It would be quiet for about a minute, then would start up again until you felt like you were in a party. And you saw this unruliness coming from those who would be reverent at regular Sunday masses. I think people tend to forget that they are there for a Sacrament and think of it more like a party, which is sad. Yes, this was extremely disheartening for me to witness, but I’ve learned not to judge. I did that kind of judging when I was younger and thought I was practically free from sin since I wasn’t a bad kid and because I loved going to Mass where most people I know didn’t. It took some humbling and real examination of my life, heart and spirituality in my late teens/early 20s to realize how wrong I was in that kind of thinking.

So, now I try to think the best of these people and be as charitable as I can be. I prefer to find out what their situations are before I make a discernment of what is going on there. It is the same with the OP. I think his heart is in the right place, but believe he might be letting the frustration and sadness embitter him, which I understand how easy that can be especially when one feels there is nothing one can do to fix the situation. God bless.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I read some of the posts, but not all of them.

In part, drawing from what Fr. Benedict Groeschel has said and from my own observations having been to Mass more than 10,000 times [frequent daily Mass] and having listened to a lot of complaints.

1. Catholics of all ages in the pews have been deliberately dumbed down. We were promised advanced adult Catholic education, but instead we got banner making. You can pursue a religio-political analysis, but in fact, Catholics today know only a fraction of what Catholics of the 1950’s knew.

This huge gap is DIRECTLY what led to the formation of Catholic Answers by Karl Keating. There have been numerous complaints at the resolute failure of the Catholic Church’s bureaucracy to teach / evangelize to Catholics.

1. The biggest scandal of the Catholic Church is not the priestly misbehavior scandal, but rather the deliberateness of the abandonment of the education of the laity.
2. In the more than 10,000 Masses I have attended, I have only heard ONE priest ONE TIME exhort the attendees to take advantage of the opportunity presented at Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday, Easter, Christmas, Baptisms, Confirmations and Weddings, to encourage people to attend Mass weekly; instead of criticizing the non-attenders; rather to do something to encourage them to come to Mass regularly; to learn about the faith. Those rare days are opportunities, not to be lost.

We need for every priest to welcome the overwhelming throngs on those days, make a point of welcoming them and begging them to start showing up regularly … and to receive the sacrament of Penance. I have never heard that.

1. Priests have told me that they are forbidden to teach during their homilies at Mass; they can only preach. Lately, I have heard some few priests start to educate people about the direct connection between the Old Testament priests/prophets and Jesus and us. But only just recently.
2. The loneliest man in town is NOT the Maytag repairman; the loneliest man in town is the priest in the confessional on Saturday waiting, waiting, waiting for someone to show up for the sacrament of Penance.

 

[ProVobis]

Not sure exactly what you mean, but the when we receive the Sacraments is important and help shape the culture.

Let’s agree to disagree then. Unless you provide sound theological basis for your arguments concerning when confirmation should be made/received, we will be getting nowhere.

 

[ProVobis]

As I and others have pointed out in this thread, you have no way of knowing if these Christians have been away from Mass for years. They may attend Mass in other parishese besides yours. Unless you know them personally and keep tabs on their life, you cannot make this assessment.

Cat, you are far too let’s-give-them-the-benefit-of-the-doubt. We can read statistics and see with our own eyes the number of people who come out for Easter, Christmas, and special occasions. People can and do go to other parishes but that should even out in the end, no? Or do many parishes experience significant declines at Easter and Christmas to exactly counter the increases where we see them? I really doubt it.

 

[Cat]

Cat, you are far too let’s-give-them-the-benefit-of-the-doubt. We can read statistics and see with our own eyes the number of people who come out for Easter, Christmas, and special occasions. People can and do go to other parishes but that should even out in the end, no? Or do many parishes experience significant declines at Easter and Christmas to exactly counter the increases where we see them? I really doubt it.

I would rather err on the side of tolerance, kindness, and forgiveness than suspicion, resentment, and rejection.

Philippians 4: 5 “Let your forbearing spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.”

Ephesians 4: 32 “And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ has also forgiven you.”

I Corinthians 13: 7 “charity…bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”

I Peter 4: 8 “Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.”

I Timothy 2: 24-26 "And the Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will."

I realize that in the last passage above, St. Paul is speaking to a priest, Timothy, not a layperson. This is perhaps where our priests today get the idea that they should not whip recalcitrant Catholics back into shape or hurl them out of the Mass, but rather, priest should *woo *them back with gentleness and kindness–that’s what the Bible teaches. Those who are looking for fury and wrath–well, talk to St. Paul about it.

And if a priest is admonished by St. Paul to gently correct errant Catholics, shouldn’t we, the un-ordained laypeople, strive even more to be gentle and loving in our actions towards those that we think might be living as apostates?

 

[PatriceA]

I would rather err on the side of tolerance, kindness, and forgiveness than suspicion, resentment, and rejection.

Philippians 4: 5 “Let your forbearing spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.”

Ephesians 4: 32 “And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ has also forgiven you.”

I Corinthians 13: 7 “charity…bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”

I Peter 4: 8 “Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.”

I Timothy 2: 24-26 "And the Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will."

I realize that in the last passage above, St. Paul is speaking to a priest, Timothy, not a layperson. This is perhaps where our priests today get the idea that they should not whip recalcitrant Catholics back into shape or hurl them out of the Mass, but rather, priest should *woo *them back with gentleness and kindness–that’s what the Bible teaches. Those who are looking for fury and wrath–well, talk to St. Paul about it.

And if a priest is admonished by St. Paul to gently correct errant Catholics, shouldn’t we, the un-ordained laypeople, strive even more to be gentle and loving in our actions towards those that we think might be living as apostates?

Me too Cat, me too. Who knows if our kindness just might lead a fallen away Catholic back to the church or plant a seed in a non-Catholic to consider converting. Giving into resentment and intolerance seems to affect my own faith, its a poison, once you give into that kind of thinking.

 

[ProVobis]

I realize that in the last passage above, St. Paul is speaking to a priest, Timothy, not a layperson. This is perhaps where our priests today get the idea that they should not whip recalcitrant Catholics back into shape or hurl them out of the Mass, but rather, priest should *woo *them back with gentleness and kindness–that’s what the Bible teaches. Those who are looking for fury and wrath–well, talk to St. Paul about it.

And if a priest is admonished by St. Paul to gently correct errant Catholics, shouldn’t we, the un-ordained laypeople, strive even more to be gentle and loving in our actions towards those that we think might be living as apostates?

Point taken. However, St. Paul also says a lot of things about should or shouldn’t be allowed in church.

 

[ProVobis]

Who knows if our kindness just might lead a fallen away Catholic back to the church or plant a seed in a non-Catholic to consider converting.

I was a fallen-away Catholic too. What reasons brought me back? I can honestly tell you that packing them in Church wasn’t one of them.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Cat, you are far too let’s-give-them-the-benefit-of-the-doubt. We can read statistics and see with our own eyes the number of people who come out for Easter, Christmas, and special occasions. People can and do go to other parishes but that should even out in the end, no? Or do many parishes experience significant declines at Easter and Christmas to exactly counter the increases where we see them? I really doubt it.

Can anyone certify that they have seen INCREASES in attendance at Mass after Easter, after Christmas, etc?

Yes, yes, during Lent, there is an increase in DAILY Mass attendance, but it falls off a cliff after Easter Sunday.

So can anyone certify that they have witnessed where they increases in attendance? Or decreases in attendance at Christmas and Easter?

Do only a few Churches add extra Masses at Christmas and Easter or do many of them add extra Masses at Christmas and Easter?

 

[kozlosap]

My daughter was part of the “experiment” that the church was doing 17 years ago in Sacramento and her whole class was confirmed in 3rd grade! I was livid. During the parent meeting we had with the Sister of Mercy who was in charge of faith formation in our diocese, there was almost a riot - I wasn’t the only parent who was shocked and dismayed about confirmation at age 8 or 9. The kids were to young to understand the majority of the tenants of our faith let alone do any meaningful community service and making decisions as a young adult. My dear daughter was quite happy to have a pretty new dress, flowers in her hair and a cake at her party. What a joke! The next year the experiment ended and the tradition of doing Confirmation in 8th grade returned. I teach high school and I can tell you that even most 14 year olds aren’t ready to be considered adults in the eyes of the Church. Hopefully someday Rome will realize this and find a fitting solution.

 

[PaulinVA]

Only half right? But where did I say that the confirmations were not real or that they lacked grace. However we know that sacraments which ordinarily convey grace can in fact convey condemnation to those who receive them unworthily.

Oh, come on. You are talking about the families in one post, now you condemn the kids themselves? The kids being confirmed are their own people. Give them credit for that.

Perhaps what we are actually doing for these children is confirming them in apostasy. We are admitting their families practice of only showing up to church for match-hatch-despatch type events and confirming them in that practice.

The child of such a family can, indeed, be receiving the sacrament in a more prepared way than a child of one of the “active” families.

What are you talking about “bless their non-believing hearts” and “support them”. I will not. I will call loudly for their conversion, repentance, and public penitence and would if I had the authority (which I admit I do not) deny them the sacraments for their own sakes, so that they may learn the horrors of apostasy and sin and that all fear and trembling may return to our fellowships
“11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things”

Well, you need to separate the children from the parents. I agree, there are cultural Catholics that only show up for Baptisms, Christmas, Easter, First Communion, etc. But your attitude towards their children ensures that they will never be converted and the kids won’t be interested either.

Johnathan Edwards and Cotton Mather are long dead. We worship the God of the Prodigal Son, the God of the lost sheep.

 

[PatriceA]

I was a fallen-away Catholic too. What reasons brought me back? I can honestly tell you that packing them in Church wasn’t one of them.

What brought you back, may not work for someone else and if my attitude and the manner I conduct myself at mass and outside the church even brings one person back into the fold, then I will rejoice. If I constantly judge everyone around me, than I bear the burden of potentially driving someone further away from the faith.

If you feel comfortable with your outlook at people at Mass, so be it. But I for one find it hurts my faith life way too much to go down the same road as you.