Fed up with phony confirmations

[karennascargo3]

excubitor, what bothers me about your posts is the name-calling, presumptions of people from how they look, plus how you apparently get more joy in looking around at others rather than in participation and paying attention to the service going on. How about spending that time (as well as setting aside a daily time) to pray for them!

You don’t know these people and it isn’t your job to decide whether Dad is bored (maybe he’s tired from working a 70 hr. work week) and how would you know he even watches games on TV? How can you even draw such conclusions about people you haven’t even met??? That my friend is judgmental, condemning, and uncharitable. That is neither Christian nor Catholic, so it makes you no better. It’s the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

You see, their problem may not a problem you have, but we all have something that is just as displeasing and disrespectful to God. It’s why Jesus said to take the plank out of your eye before going after that speck in your brother’s eye.

 

[Cat]

Could not agree more. This would be my other rule to implement.
Forbid schools to organise confirmations.
This would force parents to take the inititiative (or the children themselves) which is how it should be. This would in one fell swoop get rid of the vast majority of contrived and phony confirmations for the simple reason that the apostate Catholics would never get around to even thinking about having their children confirmed.

Fathers are the worst. The kids parade in with their schoolmates in their white suits and dresses and Dad could not look more bored if he tried. He can’t wait to get out of there and go back to the game on TV. Kind of like me at one of those kids music concerts where you are dead bored, hate every minute of it and just make sure that you smile and clap at the right times to make your kid look like you are involved and interested.

So the confirmation just becomes a tired extension of little Johnny’s educamacation that you fit in between P&T meetings and the school concert.

You are living in a fantasy world.

Do you undersatnd that 50% of families are BROKEN by divorce?

Dad is not around in most of these families, and Mom is exhausted and cynical. Grandparents live far away, and many times, are still working full-time jobs because they have no money to retire.

Children of divorce tend to lose trust in adults in general, especially Dad.

Even in many intact families, there are problems. For reasons that are too complex to be discussed on this thread, families are over-extended, financially troubled, and sometimes dysfunctional. In many families, both Mom and Dad are working full-time jobs and have little time and energy left to put in time with their children.

Even in intact families, in the Catholic Church, many adults are absolutely clueless about their faith, possibly due to the confusion that occurred after Vatican II. Even if they were given some kind of Catechism guide, they would still have no idea how to teach their children the basics of Catholicism.

You are accusing me of ignorance regarding the faith, yet I have been through many classes, read many great books of the past and present, finished an excellent RCIA program, and attended quite a few seminars given by CAF. Plus I’m on this forum all the time. Yet you say I have no idea what my faith is all about.

Well, if I’m ignorant, others are absolutely without knowledge, completely blank. You and a few others are the only ones who know “the truth” about Catholicism. And you and those few educated ones are hardly able to teach all the children and teenagers in the U.S.

I agree entirely that in the ideal world, Mom and Dad would instruct their children in not only religion, but in lifeskills in general. But that’s not going to happen in the U.S. in the majority of families.

That is why the parishes and schools have stepped up to the plate, and praise God that they have done so!

I personally think your view of Confirmation classes is much too gloomy and negative. Throughout history, kids have been confirmed (not just in the Catholic Church) and have promptly stopped attending church and have gone off on their own to enjoy life (and try out sin). I’m guessing that many of YOU did this–stopped going to church once you were confirmed.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. Children need to search and discover their faith for themselves, and make their own commitment to Jesus Christ and the Church. In Confirmation, they are often led to the commitment and they make it because of parental and peer pressure. They need to internalize their beliefs and come to a conclusion on their own that Jesus Christ is truly the Son of God. Sadly, this often means that they have to deny Him for a while and try to live life without Him. This is truly a scary time for parents, who can do little except pray and invite them to come home to Jesus.

Many Christians return to the church when they get old enough to realize that sin does not bring peace and joy. Parents can cling to the promise in Proverbs that says that if we train up a child in the way he should go, when he is old he will not depart from it. In the Sacrament of Confirmation, the Holy Spirit begins to work in the confirmand’s life. The Holy Spirit will not abandon His children. It is not as hopeless as you make it out to be.

That being said, I reiterate what I have posted earlier, that the Catholic Church needs to work hard on establishing youth groups for teenagers and continue catechizing them AFTER their confirmation. I was raised evangelical Protestant, and I agree with those who say that the evangelicals really kick into high gear when the children become teenagers. My youth group was awesome. Several people in my youth group have gone on to become nationally and internationally known pastors, missionaries, and teachers, including the luminous Pastor John Ortberg (Google his name).

The Catholic Church often talks about the need for vocations, yet they dump their young people into nothingness at the time of their lives when they are most likely to be receptive to the calling of the Holy Spirit. No wonder they lose interest in the Church.

I am extremely thankful that in our diocese, youth programs are in place in many parishes. Perhaps that is why we do not have a shortage of vocations here. Several priests and sisters have come out of our parish, where the Lifeteen program has been in place for many years.

 

[Phemie]

Could not agree more. This would be my other rule to implement.
Forbid schools to organise confirmations.
This would force parents to take the inititiative (or the children themselves) which is how it should be. This would in one fell swoop get rid of the vast majority of contrived and phony confirmations for the simple reason that the apostate Catholics would never get around to even thinking about having their children confirmed.

Are you kidding?? We have no Catholic schools and parents who never set foot in church still show up looking for Baptism, First Communion and Confirmation because that’s what you do when you were brought up Catholic:

1. Baby’s born and, oh, must have him baptized. “Why do you want this?” “Well, I’m Catholic.” (Families with 2 Catholic parents are few and far between, mixed marriages around here are pretty much the norm, rather than the exception – granted, that was my response too the only time I was asked, and I went to church all the time.)
2. Kid’s a little older and again the phone call, “When’s First Communion, Johnny is in grade 2, so it’s time, isn’t it?” “Who are you??”
3. Same thing with Confirmation.

As I said, it’s a cultural rite of passage that they all expect their kid to have, regardless of their beliefs or lack of beliefs. You can’t deny the child the sacraments if he/she is properly prepared just because of their mom and dad.

 

[excubitor]

And if a priest is admonished by St. Paul to gently correct errant Catholics, shouldn’t we, the un-ordained laypeople, strive even more to be gentle and loving in our actions towards those that we think might be living as apostates?

There is a serious problem in the church. If someone was a facilitator in an abortion there would be a clamouring to have them ejected from the church and kept from the sacrament. However if someone does not attend for 3 months nobody thinks anything of it. Or even 3 years. People come and go as they see fit. But in fact this is apostasy.

The fact that people don’t understand this is partly because of an incomplete definition of the word in modern times. I will have a bit of a jab at the Catholic Catechism on this point. It states that apostasy is the complete repudiation of the Christian faith. And that certainly is true, however there are two kinds of Apostasy as Thomas Aquinas explains in Summa Theologica.

Apostasy denotes a backsliding from God. A man may apostatize from God, by rebelling in his mind against the Divine commandments: and though man may apostatize in both the above ways, he may still remain united to God by faith.But if he give up the faith, then he seems to turn away from God altogether: and consequently, apostasy simply and absolutely is that whereby a man withdraws from the faith, and is called “apostasy of perfidy.”

perfidy means a betrayal of trust.

So I am not claiming that these unfaithful Catholics are apostates of the second perfidous kind, they most certainly are apostates of the first kind. They have rebelled in their mind against the Holy Commandments in particular the 4th commandment To keep the Sabbath day Holy and the rule of the church to attend Mass every Sunday.

They have turned away from God. It is quite likely that there apostasy is also complete and that these visits to church are merely social obligations which they meet which merely further to ruin their souls because they have eaten and drunk condemnation to themselves by putting out their hand to touch the most Holy when they are unworthy.

If people understood that giving the sacraments to these apostates is just a great a sacrilege as giving them to abortion assisters then perhaps outrage which well up from the people and provoke our Bishops to act. How much worse does it need to get before something is done? And what if our Bishops do not act soon and the Lord himself must move to punish his people? What then? Will we not then lament like the people of Jerusalem who in the siege died in the famine with no bread?

The prophet Ezekiel was given a prophecy of this day
“Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them”

If we don’t drive the heathens, pagans, and apostates out of churches, the God will drive them out and us with them. We will be scattered on the face of the earth, fodder for the jackals.

Lamentations 1:8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward (apostasy). 9 Her filthiness is in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O Lord, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified himself. 10 The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things (sacraments): for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation. 11 All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their pleasant things for meat to relieve the soul: see, O Lord, and consider; for I am become vile.

And when I see these violations happening all around do I look at my neighbour and say he is a sinner but I am righteous? No I don’t because we are all one body. No I see myself and say as did Jeremiah.
O Lord, and consider; for I am become vile
(or at least strive to knowing that I am weak and frail)

Jeremiah did not look down upon the church as do the sedevacantists, he felt her outrages in his own soul as part of him, because Jerusalem was an inseperable part of his identity. And our poor suffering Mother even more so who continually sheds tears with her soul aching is our Jeremiah suffering at the horrendous plight of the church and what must soon befall her church for the many outrages, sacrileges and indifferences that are perpetrated in her halls.

Let us pray the prayer of the Angel for the reparation of sinners and for the consolation of our God.

‘Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly; I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifference by which He is offended. Through the infinite merits of His Most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg the conversion of poor sinners.’ ‘Take and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, which has suffered such horrible outrages from ungrateful men. Make reparation for their offenses and bring consolation to your God’

 

[PaulinVA]

Excubitor, we agree that there are many fallen away Cathollics who are still coming to Mass, presenting themselves for Communion, presenting their children for sacraments.

Instead of throwing around pejorative labels for these people, why don’t you do something? Other than banning them from the grounds, what else could be done?

Try to post something positive next time. Something. Anything.

 

[excubitor]

You are living in a fantasy world.

Do you undersatnd that 50% of families are BROKEN by divorce?

Dad is not around in most of these families, and Mom is exhausted and cynical. Grandparents live far away, and many times, are still working full-time jobs because they have no money to retire.
Children of divorce tend to lose trust in adults in general, especially Dad.

Even in many intact families, there are problems. For reasons that are too complex to be discussed on this thread, families are over-extended, financially troubled, and sometimes dysfunctional. In many families, both Mom and Dad are working full-time jobs and have little time and energy left to put in time with their children.

Even in intact families, in the Catholic Church, many adults are absolutely clueless about their faith, possibly due to the confusion that occurred after Vatican II. Even if they were given some kind of Catechism guide, they would still have no idea how to teach their children the basics of Catholicism.

And how is this is helping your case. I call them apostates. You call them divorcers, troubled, dysfunctional, clueless, confused, neglectful of teaching their kids the faith. Why then should their children receive the sacraments. You just don’t get it. Sacraments are promised to the children of them who believe. The grace comes upon the child for the sole reason that they are the child of a faithful believing Catholic. This grace does not belong to the children of the heathen.

You are accusing me of ignorance regarding the faith, yet I have been through many classes, read many great books of the past and present, finished an excellent RCIA program, and attended quite a few seminars given by CAF. Plus I’m on this forum all the time. Yet you say I have no idea what my faith is all about.

Well, if I’m ignorant, others are absolutely without knowledge, completely blank. You and a few others are the only ones who know “the truth” about Catholicism. And you and those few educated ones are hardly able to teach all the children and teenagers in the U.S.

Sadly I belive this to be true. We are getting to a critical mass of ignorance where the faith will die out in many parts of the world. We need missionaries from Nigeria to come into our apostate nations and reseed the gospel to us.

I agree entirely that in the ideal world, Mom and Dad would instruct their children in not only religion, but in lifeskills in general. But that’s not going to happen in the U.S. in the majority of families.

No its not because our Catholics have gone apostate. If Catholics go apostate then they take their children with them. This is an unalienable principle of the scriptures which is demonstrated time and again.

That is why the parishes and schools have stepped up to the plate, and praise God that they have done so!

Why should I. It makes not a bit of difference. If the parents fall from Grace so do their children and there is nothing the school can do about it. The best the school can do is teach the children the gospel and hope that when they come of age they make their own personal decision later in life. When they attend church independently of their parents and go through the RCIA program. I admit I do not know how this would work exactly and the church has probably never confronted how to deal with such extraordinary displays of faithlessness and apostasy such as we see today.

What I do know is this
Canon 844 §1 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments only to catholic members of

Christ’s faithful

, who equally may lawfully receive them only from catholic ministers, except as provided in §§2, 3 and 4 of this canon and in canon 861 §2.

 

[excubitor]

I personally think your view of Confirmation classes is much too gloomy and negative. Throughout history, kids have been confirmed (not just in the Catholic Church) and have promptly stopped attending church and have gone off on their own to enjoy life (and try out sin). I’m guessing that many of YOU did this–stopped going to church once you were confirmed.

Stopping going to church is not normal. It was never normal in times gone by or throughout history as you say. It is a phenomenon of this modern age. The incredible condoning of youth by telling them that apostasy is normal for young people is the most incredible lie that is ruining our young people. We assume that they will come back after they have spent a few years sinning. But the fact is that many do not come back and their souls are lost. Stopping going to church which is your nice way of saying “sinning mortally” is no more acceptable for youths than it is for “responsible” adults. It is a mortal sin whether you are 15 or 45.

This is not necessarily a bad thing.

WHHHAAAATTTT???
You see this is how I know that you have lost all proper Catholic sense. And I know that this kind of appalling permissiveness is symptomatic of our modern church. The Amish are like this. Their kids plummet themselves into sin because they know when the make their “adult” decision there will be no more of that. The adults just think that is normal behaviour for young people. Catholics are starting to think like this also.

You reckon that going out enjoying themselves and exploring sin and not coming to church is a good thing so that Children can search and discover themselves. What kind of ideology is that? Don’t tell me you learned that at RCIA. Please.

Children need to search and discover their faith for themselves, and make their own commitment to Jesus Christ and the Church. In Confirmation, they are often led to the commitment and they make it because of parental and peer pressure. They need to internalize their beliefs and come to a conclusion on their own that Jesus Christ is truly the Son of God. Sadly, this often means that they have to deny Him for a while and try to live life without Him. This is truly a scary time for parents, who can do little except pray and invite them to come home to Jesus.

What children need is to go to mass every week. Pray the rosary, say the Catholic prayers, study their scriptures. Obey the commandments. They need to say that “living life without Jesus” is mortal sin and results in eternal death and damnation in the unquenchable fires of hell. You want to pat them on the head and sing them lullaby’s. There, there little one. When you are ready come home to Jesus. I feel nauseous. By the time they have spent a few years finding themselves they have probably already been swallowed up by the enemy. In fact these are the very people who don’t come home to Jesus. They instead have children of their own and then “pop in to see Jesus” for 5 minutes while they get their little dear confirmed.

Many Christians return to the church when they get old enough to realize that sin does not bring peace and joy. Parents can cling to the promise in Proverbs that says that if we train up a child in the way he should go, when he is old he will not depart from it. In the Sacrament of Confirmation, the Holy Spirit begins to work in the confirmand’s life. The Holy Spirit will not abandon His children. It is not as hopeless as you make it out to be.

Yes but parents are not training up their children in the way they should go by your own admission. Therefore they most assuredly depart from the good and true way. You say many Christians return to church, but that is horrendous. That is just another way of saying that many Christians never return to church or only on occasion like when their kid gets dunked or confirmed. That is not the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[excubitor]

That being said, I reiterate what I have posted earlier, that the Catholic Church needs to work hard on establishing youth groups for teenagers and continue catechizing them AFTER their confirmation. I was raised evangelical Protestant, and I agree with those who say that the evangelicals really kick into high gear when the children become teenagers. My youth group was awesome. Several people in my youth group have gone on to become nationally and internationally known pastors, missionaries, and teachers, including the luminous Pastor John Ortberg (Google his name).

Again, its just one error after another. Evangelicals with wonderful youth programmes have just as high a rate of youth falling away as Catholics do. Its everyone elses job isnt it? No its OUR job as parents to take our children to mass every week and teach them the doctrines of the church. And if we don’t then their salvation is on our head, not the Catholic churches. Not the youth programme. Ours. Now if we do all that is required of us and take them to church and teach them the scriptures and the catechism and they still rebel and leave the church then it is on their head, not the churches and not the youth groups. But if an adult comes to the faith and is not properly taught the scriptures, the faith and the catechism then his salvation IS upon the head of the church, and most particularly the teaching arm of the church (the magisterium) And part of the reason that the priests cannot properly catechise the faithful Catholics in their flock is because they are so busy entertaining all the visitors who come in to mass. Plus they are flat out organising and conducting marriages, baptisms, funerals and confirmations for pagans and apostates that they have no time to run RCIA programs and so shovel their responsibilities off to poorly instructed laymen to run the RCIA programs.

Furthermore they are also administrators for schools who the VAST MAJORITY of students are pagans. Do a survey at your local catholic school and find out which proportion of students regularly attend mass every Sunday. I have heard statistics as low as 5 percent. Not only that but the people teaching our children are not even Catholics but are secular teachers who have no religious interest in teaching our children Catholic catechesis. So our 5 percent of faithful students get swallowed up in the sea of paganism. Yet our pastor spends large portions of his time administering to these pagan institutions which go by the name Catholic.

I would like to see the church get out of hospitals and schools and get a whole lot smaller and start getting back to basics, feeding the flock. The pastors need to devote themselves to prayer and ministry of the word. With a little holy flock we can then start building again and the Holy Spirit will flourish us and we will grow again in holiness, inspiring repentance and conversion in the pagan world around us once more.

 

[ProVobis]

Even in intact families, in the Catholic Church, many adults are absolutely clueless about their faith, possibly due to the confusion that occurred after Vatican II. Even if they were given some kind of Catechism guide, they would still have no idea how to teach their children the basics of Catholicism.

It wasn’t that way when the nuns ran the schools. They even taught catechism to the Catholics from the public schools once a week or so.

But for the most part you’re right. All’s one has to hear is the English language being butchered by our own Presidents and candidates for office to realize the drop in overall education levels, of which catechism is a major part if you’re Catholic.

 

[excubitor]

Excubitor, we agree that there are many fallen away Cathollics who are still coming to Mass, presenting themselves for Communion, presenting their children for sacraments.

Instead of throwing around pejorative labels for these people, why don’t you do something? Other than banning them from the grounds, what else could be done?

Banning them from the grounds is exactly what is needed. When that happens they will learn how serious their sins are and perhaps they will repent and return in full communion with the church. You want to sing lullaby’s to them. It won’t work.

The scripture calls this “giving them up to Satan”

1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump

Having these come again-go again Catholics in our midst sends the wrong message. It says it is OK to come to church when you feel like it. Nobody will challenge you. And all the lullaby singers think that they are being so tolerant, patient and positive “Your glorying is not good”

All that happens is that others see this infidelity played out before their own eyes and eventually they too start to lapse thinking it does not really matter. “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump”

Sadly I do not have any authority in the church, but if I did then I would certainly enforce the measures I have outlined in this thread without fear or favour. The best I can do is write all this on the forum which another person called venting. I think he may be correct, because I doubt that anyone will take any notice. They will probably say “Who is this that troubles Israel” and go about their merry way.

No of course we all want to hear soft and soothing words. Like the false prophets of old who gave pillows to their audiences so they would settle in. They spoke good things to the people, comforting and consoling them, CONFIRMING THEM in their sins.

Like the song says “Killing them softly with their words”.

I warn everyone not to go after those who speak smooth words but rather listen for the watchman who blares with his warning trumpet to sound the alarm and spur to action.

Romans 16:18, “by smooth words and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the simple.”

 

[RyanBlack]

And how is this is helping your case. I call them apostates. You call them divorcers, troubled, dysfunctional, clueless, confused, neglectful of teaching their kids the faith. Why then should their children receive the sacraments. You just don’t get it. Sacraments are promised to the children of them who believe. The grace comes upon the child for the sole reason that they are the child of a faithful believing Catholic. This grace does not belong to the children of the heathen.

Please explain to me how it is that the sole reason that grace comes upon a child receiving a sacrament of the Church is due to anything other than the action of the Holy Spirit through that sacrament.

 

[RyanBlack]

Sadly I do not have any authority in the church, but if I did then I would certainly enforce the measures I have outlined in this thread without fear or favour.

I humbly suggest that you re-read Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 15:11-32, and Luke 18:9-14. I am not able to look into your heart and know your motives. However, your words convey to me nothing of the love, mercy, grace, and long-suffering of God towards his children-both those are like the elder, dutiful son, and those who are like the lapsed prodigal son. Rather, they convey to me bitterness, judgment, and smugness towards others.

 

[BlueSapphire]

You are living in a fantasy world.

I personally think your view of Confirmation classes is much too gloomy and negative. Throughout history, kids have been confirmed (not just in the Catholic Church) and have promptly stopped attending church and have gone off on their own to enjoy life (and try out sin). I’m guessing that many of YOU did this–stopped going to church once you were confirmed.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. Children need to search and discover their faith for themselves, and make their own commitment to Jesus Christ and the Church. In Confirmation, they are often led to the commitment and they make it because of parental and peer pressure. They need to internalize their beliefs and come to a conclusion on their own that Jesus Christ is truly the Son of God. Sadly, this often means that they have to deny Him for a while and try to live life without Him. This is truly a scary time for parents, who can do little except pray and invite them to come home to Jesus.

Many Christians return to the church when they get old enough to realize that sin does not bring peace and joy. Parents can cling to the promise in Proverbs that says that if we train up a child in the way he should go, when he is old he will not depart from it. In the Sacrament of Confirmation, the Holy Spirit begins to work in the confirmand’s life. The Holy Spirit will not abandon His children. It is not as hopeless as you make it out to be.

This is where the parable of the Prodical Son comes in, or the parable of the lost sheep!

God Bless!

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Banning them from the grounds is exactly what is needed. When that happens they will learn how serious their sins are and perhaps they will repent and return in full communion with the church. You want to sing lullaby’s to them. It won’t work.

The scripture calls this “giving them up to Satan”

Having these come again-go again Catholics in our midst sends the wrong message. It says it is OK to come to church when you feel like it. Nobody will challenge you. And all the lullaby singers think that they are being so tolerant, patient and positive “Your glorying is not good”

All that happens is that others see this infidelity played out before their own eyes and eventually they too start to lapse thinking it does not really matter. “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump”

Sadly I do not have any authority in the church, but if I did then I would certainly enforce the measures I have outlined in this thread without fear or favour. The best I can do is write all this on the forum which another person called venting. I think he may be correct, because I doubt that anyone will take any notice. They will probably say “Who is this that troubles Israel” and go about their merry way.

No of course we all want to hear soft and soothing words. Like the false prophets of old who gave pillows to their audiences so they would settle in. They spoke good things to the people, comforting and consoling them, CONFIRMING THEM in their sins.

Like the song says “Killing them softly with their words”.

I warn everyone not to go after those who speak smooth words but rather listen for the watchman who blares with his warning trumpet to sound the alarm and spur to action.

Romans 16:18, “by smooth words and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the simple.”

I am so glad that you are not in charge!!!:tsktsk:

I agree with you that there are problems, but your solutions, sir, are not what we need,
and not what Jesus expects form us.

I strongly urge you to discuss these issues with a priest.

I will pray for you.

 

[PaulinVA]

Banning them from the grounds is exactly what is needed. When that happens they will learn how serious their sins are and perhaps they will repent and return in full communion with the church. You want to sing lullaby’s to them. It won’t work.

The scripture calls this “giving them up to Satan”

What would you do if the first people who were banned from the grounds were people with no charity, no compassion, no love for their fellow sinners, people who were trying to throw all of the other people out of Mass?

Sadly I do not have any authority in the church, but if I did then I would certainly enforce the measures I have outlined in this thread without fear or favour.

No, the Church is operating in her great wisdom in this particular case.

I ask myself sometimes why the Church puts up with all of the people who are less holy than I am. Then I realize the absolute stupidity of that statement, watch out for the lightning bolts, and I ask forgiveness from God and pray for humility and compassion.

 

[karennascargo3]

Banning them from the grounds is exactly what is needed. When that happens they will learn how serious their sins are and perhaps they will repent and return in full communion with the church. You want to sing lullaby’s to them. It won’t work.

The scripture calls this “giving them up to Satan”

Having these come again-go again Catholics in our midst sends the wrong message. It says it is OK to come to church when you feel like it. Nobody will challenge you. And all the lullaby singers think that they are being so tolerant, patient and positive “Your glorying is not good”

All that happens is that others see this infidelity played out before their own eyes and eventually they too start to lapse thinking it does not really matter. "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Oh sure, hate, banning, no tolerance, judgmentalness, and self-righteousness – yep, that’ll bring them back to the Catholic faith! What in the world is the matter with you?? If we only allowed those who are worthy to be at Mass, we’d all be banned – priest included!

Church isn’t for the righteous, it’s for the unrighteous to restore them and heal their relationship with God and Jesus Christ. To bring them to a better understanding and closeness to God and our Christ. To refresh our spirits and to discover our short comings so that we can correct them through making our relationship with Christ real and pertinent to today.

By not giving others the grace to meet God in whatever their relationship with Him is (either fallen away, not knowing Him at all, or just needing a RICA refresher course), you’re condemning them to hell for sure. Jesus gave you the gift and grace of finding your salvation, the least you can do is show charity, mercy, and grace to others until Christ catches up with them or they catch up with Christ.

As of yet, I have not heard you say one positive thing or any desire to help these wayward folks in anyway. Instead, your solution is to call them names, ban them, judge them and condemn them – and you don’t even know these people. It’s all based upon observations you have made while you should have been in a state of worship and communion with the Lord, not looking around and judging whether Dad is bored, watches games on TV, what everyone is wearing, etc. My friend, you sound like the Queen of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland, “Off With Their Heads”!!!

Had it ever occurred to you that many may simply need some encouragement to get back on the right path? Have you bothered to speak to these people and **humbly and lovingly **let them know you care for their souls and are there to help them come home to the church? All mouth and no action is a sin in itself; as is being uncharitable to people you don’t even know.

 

[Joannm]

I emailed a master-degreed theologian earlier today and here is her response:

“Confirmation should not be administered when the baby is baptised. Confirmation is unique to Catholicism, Lutheranism, Anglicans, Orthodox, Eastern rites, Methodists. It is a sign of reaching adulthood in religious decision making–signifyng reaching full communion in the body of the church. Eastern Orthodox does baptism, communion and confirmation all at the same time. They do that so that the child is considered a full member of the body when they are babies.”

Did your friend take classes in sacramental theology as part of their masters? Confirmation definatly is not a sacrament “signifying reaching full communion in the body of the church.” Eucharist is the sacrament that signifies full communion and “completes Christian initiation” (CCC #1322), although the Catholic Church early in the last century reveresed the ages and allowed confirmation to come after communion, although that has never been the tradition in our Church. Confirmation, according to the CCC (1285, is “'necessary for the completion of baptismal grace”. It has never been a “sign of reaching adulthood in religiious decision making.” I received my Confirmation at 10, and I certainly didn’t think I was reaching anywhere near adult decision making. the difference with the Protestant faiths that you mentioned is that THEY see it as a sign of reaching adulthood and nothing more. It is not a Sacrament for them. It is for the Orthodox and they have it right in keeping all three sacraments together. There are some very good books on the subject on the seperation of the three sacraments that make for very good scholarly reading. Two excellent authors who wrote on the subject are Aidan Kavanagh and Paul Turner.

 

[kozlosap]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about the age that kids should be when confirmed! The group of parents with whom I was in union with were all quite educated people - the median education level was a Master’s degree if I remember correctly. I think that believing in infant baptism and childhood vs. young adult confirmation is two totally different topics. Why is it that RCIA requires adults to go through an entire year or two years in order to acquire the right to participate in the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Confirmation, yet young kids without the knowledge that adults acquire in that year or two are automatically confirmed if they either are attending a Catholic school or regular CCD classes? I can guarantee that teenagers will ask more questions and have doubts that they need to resolve - that is the way it should be. In order to develop a fully formed conscience and take part in the great gift of “free choice” that the Lord bestowed on his children, then they have to THINK. My 25 year old daughter finally learned about free choice and a fully formed conscience when she attended Loyola for college and had a wonderful Jesuit spiritual adviser. Without his careful and thoughtful answers to all of her questions, I’m not sure if she would still be a participant in the Church. In the last year she has had two cardiac ablations and developed chronic pericarditis as the result. During that time she had to continue in law school full time in order to keep her health insurance. She was mad a God, and no matter how I pleaded and tried to talk sanely with her, she was convinced that God hated her. After she talked with her old adviser, her prayer life resumed and she is looking for the good things in life now. I know I’m off subject, but I wanted you to know where I’m coming from in my logic and experience. I love the Latin Rite, and when I’m in Rome I look forward to participating in Mass, but as an educator, I know in my heart that it is right for many members of the Church all over the world that the Mass is said in their native tongues. It is comforting to look back to our childhood and the way the Church was in the 50’s, but I don’t think many of us would like to go back to under the table racism, few options for women and pre Vatican ll rules of people who commit suicide not having Catholic funerals, etc. Time and the world marches on and the Church with it.

 

[Phemie]

Why is it that RCIA requires adults to go through an entire year or two years in order to acquire the right to participate in the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Confirmation, yet young kids without the knowledge that adults acquire in that year or two are automatically confirmed if they either are attending a Catholic school or regular CCD classes?

Where did you ever get that idea?

It’s certainly not Church teachings that adult Catholics need spend a year or two preparing for Confirmation. Even baptized Christians can be brought into full communion in a matter of months, depending on how well catechized they were starting out.

Only the unbaptized are required, or at least should be required, to do a full liturgical year before receiving all the sacraments of initiation and that is to be certain that they are fully prepared the commitment that is their baptism.

 

[Cat]

This is a quote from one of the OPs posts above:

*And how is this is helping your case. I call them apostates. You call them divorcers, troubled, dysfunctional, clueless, confused, neglectful of teaching their kids the faith. Why then should their children receive the sacraments. You just don’t get it. Sacraments are promised to the children of them who believe. The grace comes upon the child for the sole reason that they are the child of a faithful believing Catholic. This grace does not belong to the children of the heathen. *

I’m going to ask the Apologists this question. I personally find this theology shocking and I suspect that it’s not correct. But perhaps I am in the wrong here.

While I’m waiting for the Apologist’s answer (if they choose to answer this question), I would like to know what the more knowledgeable Catholics know about this issue. IS it true that the Sacraments are not available to children of heathens? Is it true that the Sacraments are promised only to the children of those who believe?