Fed up with phony confirmations

[MarkThompson]

This is a quote from one of the OPs posts above:

*And how is this is helping your case. I call them apostates. You call them divorcers, troubled, dysfunctional, clueless, confused, neglectful of teaching their kids the faith. Why then should their children receive the sacraments. You just don’t get it. Sacraments are promised to the children of them who believe. The grace comes upon the child for the sole reason that they are the child of a faithful believing Catholic. This grace does not belong to the children of the heathen. *

I’m going to ask the Apologists this question. I personally find this theology shocking and I suspect that it’s not correct. But perhaps I am in the wrong here.

While I’m waiting for the Apologist’s answer (if they choose to answer this question), I would like to know what the more knowledgeable Catholics know about this issue. IS it true that the Sacraments are not available to children of heathens? Is it true that the Sacraments are promised only to the children of those who believe?

Yeah – ouch, that’s so far off it’s hard to image how a Catholic could write it. God’s “grace comes upon the child” because of the child’s full share in humanity and God’s promise, and because God created each of us and loves each of us. Anyone who would believe the section you’ve quoted is in real danger of heresy.

 

[Sarabande]

IS it true that the Sacraments are not available to children of heathens? Is it true that the Sacraments are promised only to the children of those who believe?

It would be interesting to find out. I do know, though, that priests have been free to deny the Sacrament of Baptism to a child if the parents do not agree to continue to raise the child in the faith. This happened to someone I know. The father did not think it was necessary to promise to raise the child in the faith and was getting the child baptised because both grandmothers were pressuring them. The priest said that it would be no use to baptise their child if they had no intention of raising him in the faith. The priest told the grandmothers that if they have any influence on their grandchild, then he would grow to learn about the faith and make the decision for himself when he is an adult. And it is not uncommon for this to occur. I’ve heard of it happening often to parents who was open to the priest about not having the intention to attend mass regularly, etc.

How it is handled when a child is already baptised may be different, though.

 

[Cat]

If the OP is willing to share the information, I would be curious to know if he/she is a parent and if so, the approximate age of the children (babies, schoolaged, teens, adults).

Thank you.

Just to be fair–I am 53. I have two daughters, ages 24 and 27. They both turned out well.

 

[kozlosap]

I humbly suggest that you re-read Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 15:11-32, and Luke 18:9-14. I am not able to look into your heart and know your motives. However, your words convey to me nothing of the love, mercy, grace, and long-suffering of God towards his children-both those are like the elder, dutiful son, and those who are like the lapsed prodigal son. Rather, they convey to me bitterness, judgment, and smugness towards others.

Ditto Ryan! I find his/her posts to be so hateful and full of self righteousness that it almost spells out borderline personality disorder. In his perfect little world, he would be the lone person in this country (if not the world) that deserves to receive communion. In the 1930’s there was another name for people who felt they were superior to all others. The most appropriate response to someone of this ilk is to pray for their soul and that they would follow and live the life that Jesus taught his disciples in the Gospels.

 

[Julianna]

Yes the OP is way off base here…

I would like to know how he/she can spot who is there for the sacraments and who isn’t? Tarot cards, crystal ball…will everyone light up red when they come through the security doors? Just wondering…

It seems a “going through motions” attitude…“how did this start?”

Well “you have to make the sacraments…or else?”…“or else what?”

As a baby boomer…it was a “must do”…there wasn’t a choice…you went to catechism and you made your sacraments…in order, period, the end. After Confirmation…you were done…so we were told. Off to college we went…met someone…fell in love…got married in the Church…now the baby is coming…got to schedule the Baptism…somewhere in the hustle and bustle of life…the meaning has been lost. Agreeably that is a sad situation…so what is the pro-active solution? The OP says, “toss em out on their ear”…

I have known people who sit in the back of the Church, every Sunday…as soon as the procession goes out the front door…they go out…the side door…obligation over. Sad again.

On Wednesday night in the Baptist Church, the kids/teens go to prayer service and the parents go to theirs…same on Sunday…then they meet for fellowship/service as a family. Yes, it starts around 10 am…and you’re lucky to get out of there by 1:00…and maybe a lunch at Golden Corral (they don’t serve alcohol)…and then start all over after supper on Sunday evening. No dropping off and leaving.

Summertime…Vacation Bible School…When I moved south in 1975…it was when I first heard that term. Where was the Catholic Church during the summer?..for children. I don’t ever remember such a thing. There were buses and vans coming through the neighborhood taking children to Vacation Bible School…there were also Summer Camps as well. On Sundays…the same buses and vans came to pick up the senior citizens in the neighborhood.

I taught CCD for about 5 yrs…and in the summer…nothing. I asked…and was told…we can barely get folks to volunteer to teach CCD, nevermind getting anyone to do a Catholic version of Vacation Bible School.

Do the Protestants know something about education of the faithful that Catholics do not?

Just asking…perhaps this is the result of not being fed.

 

[Tietjen]

This is a quote from one of the OPs posts above:

*And how is this is helping your case. I call them apostates. You call them divorcers, troubled, dysfunctional, clueless, confused, neglectful of teaching their kids the faith. Why then should their children receive the sacraments. You just don’t get it. Sacraments are promised to the children of them who believe. The grace comes upon the child for the sole reason that they are the child of a faithful believing Catholic. This grace does not belong to the children of the heathen. *

I’m going to ask the Apologists this question. I personally find this theology shocking and I suspect that it’s not correct. But perhaps I am in the wrong here.

While I’m waiting for the Apologist’s answer (if they choose to answer this question), I would like to know what the more knowledgeable Catholics know about this issue. IS it true that the Sacraments are not available to children of heathens? Is it true that the Sacraments are promised only to the children of those who believe?

Generally, the sacraments are reserved for Catholics [PERIOD]. It doesn’t matter what a person’s parents believe. What the OP is suggesting is basically to excommunicate everyone that annoys him/her. Luckily, as the OP indicated, he/she is “not in charge” so we can all relax. Still, we should certainly say a prayer that the Holy Spirit might soften his/her heart toward other people.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Before Christmas and Easter evey year my now-deceased Pastor used to give us instructions. He would tell us that the church would be packed and a lot of people would show up that usually don’t come to Mass and there wouldn’t be enough seats for everyone. So…we were to get up and give them our seats. Not just out of politeness, but because they should be made to feel welcome in church. Hopefully they should feel welcome enough to want to come back. He also was one to acknowledge visitors after Mass and thank them for coming. He initiated an evangelization program aimed at inactive Catholics. He did a lot of other things too to help bring people back.

Some surveying was done among the people who did return as to why they left. An irregular marriage was one of the top reasons, someone in authority was unkind to them another, and most just had drifted away. But one of the top reasons given as to why they didn’t come back was that nobody had asked them to. Now whether that is a legitimate reason or not is not the point. The point is that many people will come back if someone reaches out to them and lets them know they are welcome, we want them back, they are important, and we will help them come back.

Now they are not returning in droves, but they do return in trickles. Which is fine. When they come back, they usually bring someone with them, like their children or family members. If we treated them harshly and excommunicated them, no one would come back. They would feel punished and unwelcome. Instead, we need to think of the story of the Prodigal Son and the Father. There is a great lesson there from the Lord Himself as to how God views His wayward children.

 

[Tietjen]

Before Christmas and Easter evey year my now-deceased Pastor used to give us instructions. He would tell us that the church would be packed and a lot of people would show up that usually don’t come to Mass and there wouldn’t be enough seats for everyone. So…we were to get up and give them our seats. Not just out of politeness, but because they should be made to feel welcome in church. Hopefully they should feel welcome enough to want to come back. He also was one to acknowledge visitors after Mass and thank them for coming. He initiated an evangelization program aimed at inactive Catholics. He did a lot of other things too to help bring people back.

Some surveying was done among the people who did return as to why they left. An irregular marriage was one of the top reasons, someone in authority was unkind to them another, and most just had drifted away. But one of the top reasons given as to why they didn’t come back was that nobody had asked them to. Now whether that is a legitimate reason or not is not the point. The point is that many people will come back if someone reaches out to them and lets them know they are welcome, we want them back, they are important, and we will help them come back.

Now they are not returning in droves, but they do return in trickles. Which is fine. When they come back, they usually bring someone with them, like their children or family members. If we treated them harshly and excommunicated them, no one would come back. They would feel punished and unwelcome. Instead, we need to think of the story of the Prodigal Son and the Father. There is a great lesson there from the Lord Himself as to how God views His wayward children.

Amen!

 

[Cat]

Before Christmas and Easter evey year my now-deceased Pastor used to give us instructions. He would tell us that the church would be packed and a lot of people would show up that usually don’t come to Mass and there wouldn’t be enough seats for everyone. So…we were to get up and give them our seats. Not just out of politeness, but because they should be made to feel welcome in church. Hopefully they should feel welcome enough to want to come back. He also was one to acknowledge visitors after Mass and thank them for coming. He initiated an evangelization program aimed at inactive Catholics. He did a lot of other things too to help bring people back.

Some surveying was done among the people who did return as to why they left. An irregular marriage was one of the top reasons, someone in authority was unkind to them another, and most just had drifted away. But one of the top reasons given as to why they didn’t come back was that nobody had asked them to. Now whether that is a legitimate reason or not is not the point. The point is that many people will come back if someone reaches out to them and lets them know they are welcome, we want them back, they are important, and we will help them come back.

Now they are not returning in droves, but they do return in trickles. Which is fine. When they come back, they usually bring someone with them, like their children or family members. If we treated them harshly and excommunicated them, no one would come back. They would feel punished and unwelcome. Instead, we need to think of the story of the Prodigal Son and the Father. There is a great lesson there from the Lord Himself as to how God views His wayward children.

This is such a lovely post. Thank you. And God bless the priest who loved people back into the Church–may He be in paradise today! And God bless you for keeping his memory alive–his loving example will surely help many of us today to show love for those who do not love us in return.

My heart is tender towards elderly priests because our elderly priest died on Saturday. He was a dear, a loving man who enjoyed nothing more than being a shepherd to his sheep, both the obedient sheep and those who strayed away. He was very crippled and all bent over due to some kind of muscle disease, but he still said Mass up until a week ago. He said the Mass on Christmas Eve, the Mass that my daughters cantored, and he was so kind to them, taking special trouble to find them after Mass and compliment their singing (one of my daughters is not a Catholic, and this kind of politeness and kindness means a lot to her and hopefully will help her and her husband to find their way to the Catholic Church).

I think we need to remember Jesus’ story about the 100 sheep and the shepherd–when a sheep went missing, the Good Shepherd didn’t say, “That rebellious sheep is out of my flock!” and allow the wolves to devour the sheep. Instead, He went out searching until He found the sheep, then He brought it back into the fold. We should all follow His example. And we should all take heed lest in our pride over our righteousness, WE go astray and find ourselves in the wilderness, the missing sheep in desperate need of our Loving Shepherd and His people.

 

[excubitor]

Before Christmas and Easter evey year my now-deceased Pastor used to give us instructions. He would tell us that the church would be packed and a lot of people would show up that usually don’t come to Mass and there wouldn’t be enough seats for everyone. So…we were to get up and give them our seats. Not just out of politeness, but because they should be made to feel welcome in church. Hopefully they should feel welcome enough to want to come back. He also was one to acknowledge visitors after Mass and thank them for coming. He initiated an evangelization program aimed at inactive Catholics. He did a lot of other things too to help bring people back.

The mass if for the faithful. It is not an evangelisation tool. What a disgrace that faithful Catholics who have assisted at mass each week must give up their places on the most important Masses of the year to apostates. Apostate Catholics do not even deserve to be there let alone be given a place of honour. What kind of backward upside down thinking is this? What kind of justice is this? Its not. Its just an example of how bizarre things are in the church in these recent decades. So what if they don’t come back? We don’t want them. They are a dead weight on the church. If they want to be privileged and honoured to be a part of the body of Christ then they need to make reparation for their sins, make their confession, do their penance and then with a humble and downstruck heart and with trembling receive the Holy Body and Blood of our Lord.

Some surveying was done among the people who did return as to why they left. An irregular marriage was one of the top reasons

What you mean is they are not only apostates, they are adulterers and divorcers. Any wonder they did not come to church. That’s good. We don’t want adulterers and divorcers in the church until they give up their adulterous relationships and become pure. Then after they have confessed their sins and made acts of atrition and performed their penance they may be reconciled to the church.

someone in authority was unkind to them another,

Aauuhhh. I tought I taw a putty cat. The early church were martyred and died for their faith without falling away. That is because they loved the church. These apostates fall away because someone was unkind to them. Weak and faithless. In my experience this is just an excuse. Blame the priest for my backsliding rather than admit my blame.

and most just had drifted away.

Most drifted away. That is just a nice way of saying they are apostate. That is what I am talking about. Drifting away is exactly what apostasy is.

But one of the top reasons given as to why they didn’t come back was that nobody had asked them to.

I certainly agree that we should pursue those who fall away and argue and contend with them to consider their actions. I would not coach it in terms of “Please, please, pretty please come back to church”. I would coach it more in terms of. “You have fallen into apostasy. Unless you turn from your path you will suffer in endless torment for all eternity in the everlasting unquenchable fires of hell”

Now whether that is a legitimate reason or not is not the point. The point is that many people will come back if someone reaches out to them and lets them know they are welcome, we want them back, they are important, and we will help them come back.

It certainly is the point. THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE REASON for leaving the church. It is a mortal sin which compounds and hardens the longer the person stays away. But you seem to think the approach to take is to offer them cup’s of tea.

Please come back, You are welcome. We have bread and wine. We have music and handshaking. We have nice people. Believe me as an ex protestant, if I want socialising good times and friendly welcoming people I would not go to a Catholic church. I would go back to my old church or to an evangelical church or a mega church. If people want to feel welcome and amongst friends there is an endless variety of clubs and associations that they can go to in the secular world without all the inconveniences of religion.

I attend the Catholic church because it has sacred and holy sacraments which bring grace to my soul. Because it is the instrument of salvation that can save my soul from the fires of hell. If people are treating Holy Mother Church like a social venue then they should not be there and would be better off at the local tavern.

 

[excubitor]

Some people have mentioned the prodigal son. The prodigal son was repentant. He returned to his father of his own volition in the humblest of mind. Of course I rejoice (more than most I believe) when a sinner comes to repentance. I am not talking about penitent Catholics returning to the fold in this thread. I am talking about apostate Catholics who have deserted the church for months and years, who stick their nose in the door for five minutes for their kids confirmation and then are off missing in action for still more months and years. I’m talking about Parents, Godparents and sponsors who could fit every catholic bone in their body into their little finger and who perjure themselves as they make their vows to support the child in the faith and then never once thereafter spare a thought for these solemn obligations which they vowed. Who never even bring the children to church.

Of worse state than the heathen are such Catholic’s as these who at one time expressed their faith and continued for a short time in the Christian way only to shrink back into neglect of the faith and even to abandon the faith.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost

Hebrews 10:38 if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Luke 8: 6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

2 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Matt 18:17 if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen

Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

 

[karennascargo3]

I think perhaps you’re confusing those scriptures. In the Gospels, there was no Christian faith yet. Jesus was giving examples for the future Church. The other scriptures were written because many were totally abandoning their belief that Christ was the Messiah and were either forming or attending other religious beliefs that denied Christ’s Deity.

Those who come to your church for Confirmation, etc. have not done that. They simply just don’t ‘get it’ – yet.

Again, I will ask since you have not addressed my last post, how does hatred, banning, name-calling, and sarcasm restore these people? How is it you know all about them (even if Dad is bored and wants to get home to watch the game on TV), yet you’ve never met these people? How is it that you spend your time watching and judging these folks when you’re suppose to worshiping and communing with Christ? How is it even possible for someone else to take your joy away in attending Mass? Nothing can separate us from that! Also, people asked if you have children and their ages. You have not responded.

 

[PaulinVA]

Well, excubitor, your plan will ensure that none of these terrible apostates ever become prodigal sons.

Millstone for you.

 

[RyanBlack]

Excubitor has stated that the Mass is not a tool for evangelism. He is greatly mistaken, for it is in the Mass that Holy Scripture (including the Gospel of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ) is read and that the Gospel is preached. Romans 10:13-14 states, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher?” Furthermore, what greater witness can the Church give to God’s love for the world than in the celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the sacrament of the most precious body and blood of our Lord, which He has given, as Byzantine Catholics and the Orthodox pray, “for the forgiveness of all my sins and for life everlasting. Amen.”?

 

[ProVobis]

What you mean is they are not only apostates, they are adulterers and divorcers. Any wonder they did not come to church. That’s good. We don’t want adulterers and divorcers in the church until they give up their adulterous relationships and become pure. Then after they have confessed their sins and made acts of atrition and performed their penance they may be reconciled to the church.

I wouldn’t say we don’t want them in the church but I would say we don’t want them making noise in the church. Big difference.

 

[ProVobis]

The mass if for the faithful. It is not an evangelisation tool.

Excubitor has stated that the Mass is not a tool for evangelism. He is greatly mistaken

You’re both half right. There is the Mass for the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful. I’ve been at masses where the catechumens were dismissed after the Creed.

 

[RyanBlack]

If there is anyone reading this thread who is either a Catholic in need of returning to the Church, a non-Catholic Christian contemplating converting to the Catholic faith, or a non-Christian enquiring about the Christian faith, please ignore Excubitor and do not allow his hatred, bitterness, and self-righteousness turn you away from the Church. He does not speak for the Church.
Specifically, for those lapsed Catholics among us, if it were the desire of the Church to ban you as Excubitor so desires, the Church would have already done so. Please return in spite of him, for God calls you back. Come and hear the Gospel of the Lord. Come and witness the love of God poured out for us in the celebration of the most precious body and blood of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. Come in a spirit of humility and penance. Ignore the words of Excubitor, and instead hear the words of our Lord in the Parable of the Lost Sheep (Luke 15:1-7), “Now the publicans and sinners drew near unto him to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes murmured, saying: This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. And he spoke to them this parable, saying: What man of you that hath an hundred sheep: and if he shall lose one of them, doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert, and go after that which was lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, lay it upon his shoulders, rejoicing: And coming home, call together his friends and neighbours, saying to them: Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost? I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.”

 

[Phemie]

You’re half right. There is the Mass for the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful. I’ve been at masses where the catechumens were dismissed after the Creed.

But catechumens are the unbaptized. Baptized persons have the right to be at Mass and not be dismissed but not all may receive the sacraments.

 

[ProVobis]

Baptized persons have the right to be at Mass

Did I say they weren’t?

 

[CatholicFireman]

I think my pastor had the people the OP spoke of in mind last Easter. In each pew was a list of guidelines of how to act and dress and who may receive and who may not and why for all of those guidelines. It was done tastefully and charitably, not condescendingly. Maybe it open the eyes of some who never knew how to act (or the whys) and maybe it educated some who were not Catholic but were there with relatives. Either way, I thought it was a pretty decent gesture.

Pax†