Federal judge overturns Utah's ban on gay marriage

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You forgot the three points of:
  • It imperils the souls of those who enter into it.
  • In the off chance that the child themselves is gay, it represents same sex relationships as neutral or even positive, putting the child at high risk as they will undoubtedly follow their sexual orientation as a result.
  • People cannot actually enter into the covenant of marriage with a member of their sex.
Those are all purely religious arguments, which not all religions agree on. Even if they did, that is not applicable to civil law. No one is attempting to force religions to change their teachings… But when it comes to civil law, all beliefs must be taken into account.
 
  • It imperils the souls of those who enter into it.
Just saying, that argument carries no weight in a courtroom.
  • In the off chance that the child themselves is gay, it represents same sex relationships as neutral or even positive, putting the child at high risk as they will undoubtedly follow their sexual orientation as a result.
If sexual orientation were merely the result of parental imprinting then homosexuality wouldn’t exist. Besides, studies have shown that children of same-sex parents are no more or less likely to identify as anything other than heterosexual than those raised by opposite-sex couples.
  • People cannot actually enter into the covenant of marriage with a member of their sex.
Perhaps from an official Roman Catholic point of view, but there are other sects of Christianity and sects of other religions which disagree. 🤷
 
Yet both are common institutions in history. Slavery shows that the argument from history (we’ve always done it this way before) is not a useful argument. The way it was done before may, or may not, have been good.
Just so. Same-sex marriage is also an exception. What is your reason for allowing one group of exceptions but not the other exception? What good legal reason do you have to differentiate between different types of infertile couples?
I have been reading more about this issue regarding infertility, and there needs to be some clarification. There are hetrosexual married couples that are infertile but homosexual couples are impotent, for a homosexual couple there is no chance of procreating. So a direct comparison can not be made between an impotent homosexual couple and infertile hetrosexual couple. You can’t elude that an infertile or post menopausal hetrosexual couple have the same issue in regards to fertility as an impotent homosexual couple who can not procreate because they are not sexually complementary.

Infertility can be caused by a medical problem which can be solved by ethical treatment wheras a homosexual couple, because of biological lack in complementarity, can not achieve procreation, there is no treatment a homosexual couple can have to achieve procreation and there is no natural way. If a homesexual couple raises children either one of a homosexual couple has used ethically concerning reproductive services with the aid of a woman to carry the child or adopt or foster.

Infertile or post menopausal married couple can still provide a mother and a father to a child they may foster and adopt and as the ‘What is Marriage’ article indicates, can still create postitive roles in the culture in regards to marriage. There are cases where women have got pregnant naturally after the menopause so the menopause is not always an end to the ability to get pregnant.
I would need to see statistics on that from states/countries where same sex marriage has been legalised.
I have posted infomation on the polling

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The only reason that need be cited for equally applying benefits is because it is the right thing to do under the Constitution. There is no need to defend why a right must exist… instead, one must show a reason to limit its existence… which your side has been unable to convincingly do. Separate but equal is not an option. All of the turmoil comes from out of touch religious zealots who have little regard for our civilizations governing document. Equal and just application of the law MUST be the standard, or else the Constitution is meaningless. If you honestly believe that this is a non-issue, and that anti-gay discrimination no longer exists, then you are not seeing the real situation. Anti-gay discrimination is a reality that people have to deal with every day. It’s not isolated to the work place… It is in the hearts of many people… in some places it remains enshrined in the law. That’s not what America stands for. Our society changes when new information becomes available. In the past, it was assumed that gay people were not capable of forming life-long relationships based on love, and becoming stable families. We now know that is not true, thus we must apply our new understanding of reality to our legal system. Decades ago, the same was assumed about interracial couples. The justices of the court at the time made a courageous decision, that was not very popular in many places. They face a parallel situation now, and so far, they’ve shown that they are up to the task. It’s sad that many Christians are again on the wrong side of history. Fortunately, there are also many Christians on the right side of history. You can denigrate us all you want. You can call us disordered “homosexualists” if you want. But we know our value to society, we don’t need you to agree. We know that our love and our families are just as good as yours. We know that our desire to be treated equally is not selfish. If anything is selfish, its the insistence that others conform to your beliefs and be treated as second class citizens in the name of “traditional” marriage. Traditionally marriage has meant many things. I’d like to think that in our nation we are not bound by how things have always been, but instead how things should be. If you feel like you are being personally attacked, or that your religious beliefs are under attack, well, I’m sorry about that. It’s not the case though. The same liberties I’m fighting for today, are liberties that you already have. One day that might not be the case. One day those liberties could be under attack. I pray that you never experience what it means to truly have your freedoms denied of you. But rest assured, if that ever does happen, I’ll be just as vocal of an ally for you as I am today. When you call me an activist, like it’s some kind of pejorative, I kind of smile. Because to me activist means someone who stands for what is right. So call me an activist all you wish, but until you truly experience the pain of being a second class citizen, don’t presume to tell me I’m selfish, or incapable of benefitting society, because that’s simply not true.
The turmoil doesn’t come from “religious zealots” but homosexual zealots who cannot admit that biology makes their relationship inherently different than that of a heterosexual couple. This doesn’t mean that homosexuals cannot have strong and loving relationships but that the relationships are never going to be equivalent to that of heterosexuals.

Why can you not admit biology rules here? No matter how much you love your “spouse” you and he cannot create life or provide a child with what every child deserves which is a mommy and a daddy.

As to “equal protection” that doesn’t mean everyone gets the same things from society or government.Marriage isn’t available to everyone or with everyone who wants it. Your desire to extend the term to same sex couples simply renders the word meaningless because it’s not based on anything but a particular sexual practice. Thus using your definition, there is no reason “marriage” cannot be extended to others who wish to enshrine their sexual practice. Further and getting back to the thread, by opening up “marriage” to anyone who self defines as “in a loving relationship” it justifies every other arrangement being given the same status including plural marriage. The word marriage no longer has any unique characteristics, it’s just another contract.

As to your other comments, it’s rather laugable to claim Catholics don’t experience bigotry or hateful reactions. The current administration has practically declared war on the Church and has spent millions of taxpayer dollars trying to force it’s pro death agenda down our throats. Further your comment that nothing will eradicate biogtry in people’s hearts is absolutely correct and if you think that will ever happen because you can call yourselves “married” is beyond ridiculous. You don’t seem to be able to comprehend that human beings are fallen and sinful creatures.

And your value to society has absolutely zero to do with your sex life. Homosexuals are not valuable to society because they engage in homosexual activity but because of their other qualities, contributions and characteristics. Why do you elevate your sexlife to the primary focus of your identity?

Lisa
 
Those are all purely religious arguments, which not all religions agree on. Even if they did, that is not applicable to civil law. No one is attempting to force religions to change their teachings… But when it comes to civil law, all beliefs must be taken into account.
Tell that to the Obama administration which is demanding that Catholics change their beliefs and practices.

Lisa
 
There are hetrosexual married couples that are infertile but homosexual couples are impotent, for a homosexual couple there is no chance of procreating.
Does civil law make a distinction between “infertile” and “impotent”? Does either appear in statutes or constitutions relevant to civil marriage in Utah?

Couples who cannot have children are not barred from civil marriage.
So a direct comparison can not be made between an impotent homosexual couple and infertile hetrosexual couple.
Why not? Neither can have children. A man with an orchidectomy cannot father any children. Does he count as “impotent” or “infertile”. Does that change if he is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual? How is any of this relevant to civil law in Utah?
Infertility can be caused by a medical problem which can be solved by ethical treatment wheras a homosexual couple, because of biological lack in complementarity, can not achieve procreation, there is no treatment a homosexual couple can have to achieve procreation and there is no natural way.
So, orchidectomies, ovariectomies and hysterectomies come under your definition of “impotent” rather than “infertile”? Such persons are not currently barred from civil marriage in Utah, or in most other places.
If a homesexual couple raises children either one of a homosexual couple has used ethically concerning reproductive services with the aid of a woman to carry the child or adopt or foster.
I do not think that adoption or fostering are “ethically concerning”. Whatever the ethics, surrogate births are legal, and this thread is about legality.

rossum
 
I have justified it… you haven’t responded. You’ve insisted on shifting the standard to some contrived reason marriage exists… that is written down in no law. If anyone has changed the argument, its been the conservatives. It’s gone from “let’s establish in law that we are a moral society,” to " marriage exists for procreation." This change happened when the courts rejected the first argument because it was purely religious. So now it’s all about making babies… except that won’t work either because it’s not a standard that is a. written down anywhere, or b. enforced on anyone except gay people. You’re running out of arguments, and the courts can see that. So, even though in a free country one doesn’t have to provide a reason to allow a right to exist, but instead must provide a reason to restrict it, there are plenty of reasons that marriage benefits society beside procreation. One last time I will give some examples. But this is seriously the last time.
  • It creates stable family units, which lends to economic and social stability for the community.
  • It establishes a sense of belonging to the community which in turn fosters a desire to be an upstanding, contributing member of society.
  • It creates an environment that is a safe, loving and prosperous environment to raise children.
  • It allows for the pooling of resources, which enables the individuals in the family to better themselves educationally, financially, and socially.
  • It allows a fall-back for when one family member becomes incapacitated because of sickness or other problem.
  • It creates a single economic unit that has more buying power, thus multiplies the consumer base, and stimulates the local economy.
  • It confers over 1000 benefits and rights that foster stability.
  • Because gay people are already raising children, it stops treating those families as second class, which can create emotional hardships for children
  • And most importantly, equal protection under the law is one of our nation’s most important moral imperatives. Extending marriage to gay people embodies that value, and represents what it truly means to be a free society.
Talking points. As has been stated numerous times, one doesn’t need to be “married” to create the above. Homosexuals can combine forces, finances and residences without calling themselves “married.” The 1000 benefits are also available without “marriage.”

How ironic you blame outside pressure for creating emotional hardships for children, completely ignoring that being raised in an abnormal environment without one or the other parent has clearly been demonstrated to create emotional hardship. Two gays or two Lesbians cannot, by definition give a child a mommy and a daddy. Like single parenting or group parenting, this is NOT the optimal situation for children. Calling two guys “married” doesn’t make one of them a mother or calling two Lesbians “married” does not give a child a father.

Oh and I love the grand assumption that two gay guys will surely provide “a safe and loving environment” for children. In what world do you live? Maybe for your cohort of friends and associates but that is hardly universal. There are also numerous incidences of male children being adopted or purchased to be used for sexual exploitation by their adoptive parents. Traditional marriage is the only legal institution binding children to their biological parents. Your version of marriage makes children a commodity instead of a creation resulting from the love of two individuals.

You want what you cannot have. Even if you don’t believe in God, you have to acknowledge basic biology. And please enter the real world of human nature which is not always a world of fuzzy bunnies and butterflies as you describe above. We’ve seen the devastation caused by the destruction of the traditional family unit. Now your agenda is to continue down this destructive path to even more societal and family chaos.

Lisa
 
Tell that to the Obama administration which is demanding that Catholics change their beliefs and practices.
Obama has done nothing to change Catholic beliefs, he does not have the authority to do so. He does have the authority to change some public practices, to ensure that they comply with the law.

rossum
 
Talking points. As has been stated numerous times, one doesn’t need to be “married” to create the above. Homosexuals can combine forces, finances and residences without calling themselves “married.” The 1000 benefits are also available without “marriage.”
Since it is already available, then why do you object? Why aren’t you campaigning instead to withdraw those benefits available to same sex partners?

And good luck in persuading the tax authorities to allow joint filing if you aren’t married. Some of those benefits are restricted to married couples only.

rossum
 
Obama has done nothing to change Catholic beliefs, he does not have the authority to do so. He does have the authority to change some public practices, to ensure that they comply with the law.

rossum
Well to use your own standard, many judges have decided he does NOT have the authority to demand that religious institutions and religious people compromise their conscience.

I’m fascinated with your rather smug pronouncements about a faith and a country you do not understand. You are an authority on these matters?

Lisa
 
Since it is already available, then why do you object? Why aren’t you campaigning instead to withdraw those benefits available to same sex partners?

And good luck in persuading the tax authorities to allow joint filing if you aren’t married. Some of those benefits are restricted to married couples only.

rossum
I have no objection to any company or government employer providing whatever benefits it deems appropriate. Employees can review the benefit package and if it doesn’t work for them, they can seek other employment. Why is it concern to me what a private business does with its money?

Again you have no clue about our country’s tax system. Joint filing actually COSTS in additional taxes. Two single people have the benefit of the lower brackets on their individual income. There used to be some benefit to joint filing but it no longer exists. Further Obamacare is providing yet another “marriage penalty” in that two individuals may be eligible for subsidies and benefits unavailable to married people with the same combined income.

Redefining marriage removes protections for children, makes them into commodities to be purchased or bred like animals, has resulted in many expensive lawsuits and chaos among private businesses, and more important has and will continue to threaten the Church.

There is no demonstrated societal benefit to redefining marriage. It is the selfish and self interest of certain individuals who ignore biology, history and theology.

Lisa
 
Well to use your own standard, many judges have decided he does NOT have the authority to demand that religious institutions and religious people compromise their conscience.
No, it merely requires that they avoid jobs which might require them to do so. A Jew working in a non-kosher butchers may have to serve pork. If he does not want to do so, then he needs to find a different job. He does not get a religious pass on having to do his job. If you don’t want to sell contraceptives, then don’t work in a shop which sells them. Simple.

I am Buddhist, so my tax money goes to fund military forces. I don’t get a pass on that for religious reasons. Where religious and other legal duties clash, the courts are there to resolve disputes. Laws DO have the right to demand certain behaviours. I cannot kill someone with impunity because I declare it my religious duty to Huitzilopochtli. If I kill then I am subject to the law. Religion gives a partial pass but not a complete pass on the law.

rossum
 
Obama has done nothing to change Catholic beliefs, he does not have the authority to do so. He does have the authority to change some public practices, to ensure that they comply with the law.

rossum
Not when that law is blatantly unconstitutional, denying freedom of religion.
 
No, it merely requires that they avoid jobs which might require them to do so. A Jew working in a non-kosher butchers may have to serve pork. If he does not want to do so, then he needs to find a different job. He does not get a religious pass on having to do his job. If you don’t want to sell contraceptives, then don’t work in a shop which sells them. Simple.

I am Buddhist, so my tax money goes to fund military forces. I don’t get a pass on that for religious reasons. Where religious and other legal duties clash, the courts are there to resolve disputes. Laws DO have the right to demand certain behaviours. I cannot kill someone with impunity because I declare it my religious duty to Huitzilopochtli. If I kill then I am subject to the law. Religion gives a partial pass but not a complete pass on the law.

rossum
Once again you are sadly misinformed. The Obama Administration’s demands that all health policies include certain medications and services (abortion inducing drugs, contraception, sterilization) removes that choice from both employee and employer. Instead of this being a free market choice that allows for conscience, all are required to provide and pay for these services, even if they are unwanted, unnecessary and most important, against the teachings of their faith.

To use your analogy, the Obama Administration would demand that all delis sell pork and all Jewish employees handle and provide pork to customers regardless of their religious convictions.

The exception to this is some kind of overwhelming public good that would result in subjecting people of faith to this kind of compromise. However there is NO overwhelming public good arising from forcing religious people and institutions to violate the tenents of their faith in the case of the HHS Mandate. The services they demand to be provided are easily and inexpensively (if not at no cost) available. There is no reason, other than ideology to force employers and employeees to accept this violation of their faith.

The tax theory doesn’t work either. We all pay taxes that go to causes we don’t support. However the relationship between paying taxes and the providing of military forces or abortions or prisons is remote. Forcing a Jew to provide a ham sandwich or a Catholic to provide abortion inducing drugs is direct. Hence the difference.

Oh and nice Red Herring to go along with your confusion about our laws. No one is suggesting religious groups have the right to kill with impunity…good grief.

Lisa
 
The homosexual lobby has bullied people into believing that we are denying homosexuals a constitutional right by allowing states to regulate marriage. This is a modern legal fiction, just as Roe v. Wade was.

As I stated before, states have always had the ability to regulate the “safety, health, welfare, and morals” of its citizens. This is truly a constitutional right. See 10th Amendment (“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”). Unless prohibited by the Constitution, the PEOPLE have the right to regulate marriage. Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 7 (1967) (“The state court is no doubt correct in asserting that marriage is a social relation subject to the State’s police power.”). The citizens of Utah have defined marriage as between a man and a woman. That was their choice. If you don’t like it, lobby the legislature to change it or petition for a state or federal constitutional amendment or move to a state that allows homosexual marriage.

The Loving case has been thrown around on this thread time and again. As I stated above, the Loving case reaffirmed that states have the right to regulate marriage per their police power. Loving said that under the Equal Protection Clause, states could not bar interracial couples from marrying. This was because the very purpose of the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution was to remove state racial discrimination. “The clear and central purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to eliminate all official state sources of invidious racial discrimination.” Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 10 (1967).

Regardless of how you feel about the issue of same sex marriage, when the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868, no one thought that it would prohibit states from banning Same Sex Marriage, no one. When the Loving decision was decided in 1967, no one thought that it would mean states had to allow Same Sex Marriage. For example, anti-discrimination measures for the disabled had to be passed legislatively (ADA). The Constitution was silent on the issue.

In fact, in 1986 the Supreme Court specifically affirm that states had the right to criminalize sodomy. “It is obvious to us that neither of these formulations would extend a fundamental right to homosexuals to engage in acts of consensual sodomy. Proscriptions against that conduct have ancient roots.” Bowers v. Hardwick, 478 U.S. 186, 192 (1986).

As the Supreme Court further said in Bowers:
This case does not require a judgment on whether laws against sodomy between consenting adults in general, or between homosexuals in particular, are wise or desirable. It raises no question about the right or propriety of state legislative decisions to repeal their laws that criminalize homosexual sodomy, or of state-court decisions invalidating those laws on state constitutional grounds. The issue presented is whether the Federal Constitution confers a fundamental right upon homosexuals to engage in sodomy and hence invalidates the laws of the many States that still make such conduct illegal and have done so for a very long time.
In 2003, in Lawrence v. Texas the Supreme Court reversed Bowers. As I noted previously, Justice Scalia issued a prophetic warning in his strong dissent in Lawrence:
State laws against bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, bestiality, and obscenity are likewise sustainable only in light of Bowers’ validation of laws based on moral choices. Every single one of these laws is called into question by today’s decision; the Court makes no effort to cabin the scope of its decision to exclude them from its holding…The impossibility of distinguishing homosexuality from other traditional “morals” offenses is precisely why Bowers rejected the rational-basis challenge. “The law,” it said, “is constantly based on notions of morality, and if all laws representing essentially moral choices are to be invalidated under the Due Process Clause, the courts will be very busy indeed. Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558, 590 (2003)
If you think same sex marriage should be legal, pass a law. You say we are forcing our view of marriage on you. I say we are a nation of laws and have the right to define marriage as our legislatures see fit. You don’t have to like it, but you can work through the normal channels of government to change it.

The truth is you are the ones forcing your morality on us. It is no different than when the Constitution was used to force the slaughter of 50 million innocent children. Roe v. Wade used the Constitution in the same way, invention of a right that did not exist. As a people, we adopted the Christian world view for a reason. I love the words of C.S. Lewis on the regulation of societal morality.
C.S. Lewis:
They tell you sex has become a mess because it was hushed up. But for the last twenty years it has not been hushed up. It has been chattered about all day long. Yet it is still in a mess. If hushing up had been the cause of the trouble, ventilation would have set it right. But it has not. I think it is the other way round. I think the human race originally hushed it up because it had become such a mess.
When the Supreme Court removes the right of the People to regulate marriage and morality, as Justice Scalia said, there will be no end to it.
 
There is no demonstrated societal benefit to redefining marriage.
Please stop. Evidence has been provided which demonstrates the societal benefits of same-sex marriage – just because you dismiss this evidence as “talking points” doesn’t dismiss its value. You’ll need to refute each of the sources identified previously with credible sources that demonstrate the opposite.
 
Please stop. Evidence has been provided which demonstrates the societal benefits of same-sex marriage – just because you dismiss this evidence as “talking points” doesn’t dismiss its value. You’ll need to refute each of the sources identified previously with credible sources that demonstrate the opposite.
What evidence?
 
Please stop. Evidence has been provided which demonstrates the societal benefits of same-sex marriage – just because you dismiss this evidence as “talking points” doesn’t dismiss its value. You’ll need to refute each of the sources identified previously with credible sources that demonstrate the opposite.
Again the claims made in the various articles were assumptive, anecdotal and quite specious. Further as has been noted repeatedly, the actual issues can and have been addressed in the vast majority of situations WITHOUT requiring redefining marriage. Your claims are rather like those who assume that the orphanages will be closed, all children will be loved and provided for if only gays can marry. Not only is this a grand and ridiculous assumption but it also completely ignores the many unfortunate results of rendering the term marriage meaningless.

Gays want their sexual practices enshrined in law and protected. They want to create a special class based on what can be a transitory behavior instead of an inherent characteristic. That makes no sense whatsoever and seems to be based on feelings rather than facts.

Lisa
 
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